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Yes they are scams. Next time they offer you "unlimited" vacation say that's very generous of them but you don't need unlimited vacation days you know exactly

by borplk 10y ago

Yes they are scams. Next time they offer you "unlimited" vacation say that's very generous of them but you don't need unlimited vacation days you know exactly how many vacation days you need and that's 28 days. If they don't reject it straight up they might try to haggle over that which proves the point.

xeniak 10y ago
While 28 days is at the high end, almost all developed countries (UK, AU, FR, etc.) require employers to provide 4+ weeks per year paid holiday leave. Bigger companies will even force you to take it once you've accrued a number of hours, as it can be a liability on the books (as unused holidays roll over indefinitely). The US is an outlier in this regard.
- massysett 10y ago
  Compared to "unlimited" 28 days is not much at all.
  - AstralStorm 10y ago
    Except it is not unlimited, but instead undisclosed limit, discretionary. In other words, the contract is lying or you haven't read it. Being fired over taking too much vacation time given the mentioned policy is potentially lawyer fodder.
    - pkinsky 10y ago
      They'd probably just fire you for 'not being a culture fit' or similar.
  - manyxcxi 10y ago
    Except unlimited has no real liability and 28 days has a potential value of at least 28 days of someone's salary. From an accounting standpoint it's a big deal.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - squeaky-clean 10y ago
    It's unlimited in the same way an "unlimited mobile data" plan with a 10GB soft-cap is.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- guitarbill 10y ago
  > Bigger companies will even force you to take it once you've accrued a number of hours, as it can be a liability on the books Interestingly, in the UK, managers are also liable for health and safety to some extent. So if you get burned out because you haven't taken any holiday for the last 3 years, your manager has to be able to say "I made him aware he had holiday left and encouraged him to take it" or something along those lines, otherwise they/the company is also on the hook (possibly).
SinomaSo 10y ago
Serious question: wouldn't the contract state the details of what "unlimited" is?. If it doesn't, aren't they going to be sued sooner or later by someone like OP?
manyxcxi 10y ago
They are definitely not scams, but it does all depend on the manager or motivation behind having unlimited, on top of the fact that unlimited vacation presents a real financial benefit to the company by limiting the liabilities against it. My company has unlimited vacation and I didn't take any vacation from Jan 1 to May 28, then I took off 10 consecutive weeks for the birth of my daughter and a move from Seattle back to Portland. We also treat Dec 24 - Jan 2 as company holidays because so many people use their personal vacation days for that time of year and to prevent people from trying to work through the holidays and dragging others into it with them. I then followed it up closely with a few days off for a wedding I was in, a couple of fishing trips, a couple out of office days for unexpected things. I've probably taken more vacation this year than I have in my entire career excluding my honeymoon. We have a system for placing vacation requests that allows anyone to see what a given stretch of time looks like as far as people being gone, and we can track how managers respond to vacation requests as well. I guarantee that if we found a manager pulling the kind of shit that the OP's manager was pulling they'd be dealt with, probably even let go without a second chance unless they were stellar in every other way. Also, all requests go through the system, so there is none of this whispering back and forth and getting you to withdraw your request. The back and forth happens and is recorded for posterity. The only problem is, just like most other culture fits at a company, how do you know until it's too late? Also, would you personally feel comfortable using an 'unlimited' amount of vacation? My recommendation has always been to treat unlimited vacation days like bonuses and options. They are perks, but the number you're generally after is the salary, so don't discount that too much in favor of some nebulous benefits that may not materialize.
- bbcbasic 10y ago
  Your company sounds awesome!
amerkhalid 10y ago
Agreed. Perhaps there are some honest companies but my experience is that developers at such companies end up taking less vacation than other places. A few times, I had interviewed at such companies with unlimited vacation. I would ask about their vacations, and how many weeks they took off this year or last. Most developers would usually say they took 1-2 weeks off last year, to which I would ask that you get that everywhere, why not more? Then the answer is "oh we are so busy and we don't abuse this policy. But if we ever need to take more days off, we can". This just seems like a warning sign. If a company is advertising unlimited vacation policy, I would expect more vacations not less. All my jobs had at least 2-3 weeks off. So I always assumed unlimited vacation means less than usual vacation time.

by borplk 10y ago

xeniak 10y ago

While 28 days is at the high end, almost all developed countries (UK, AU, FR, etc.) require employers to provide 4+ weeks per year paid holiday leave. Bigger companies will even force you to take it once you've accrued a number of hours, as it can be a liability on the books (as unused holidays roll over indefinitely). The US is an outlier in this regard.

massysett 10y ago
Compared to "unlimited" 28 days is not much at all.
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  Except it is not unlimited, but instead undisclosed limit, discretionary. In other words, the contract is lying or you haven't read it. Being fired over taking too much vacation time given the mentioned policy is potentially lawyer fodder.
  - pkinsky 10y ago
    They'd probably just fire you for 'not being a culture fit' or similar.
- manyxcxi 10y ago
  Except unlimited has no real liability and 28 days has a potential value of at least 28 days of someone's salary. From an accounting standpoint it's a big deal.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  It's unlimited in the same way an "unlimited mobile data" plan with a 10GB soft-cap is.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
guitarbill 10y ago
> Bigger companies will even force you to take it once you've accrued a number of hours, as it can be a liability on the books Interestingly, in the UK, managers are also liable for health and safety to some extent. So if you get burned out because you haven't taken any holiday for the last 3 years, your manager has to be able to say "I made him aware he had holiday left and encouraged him to take it" or something along those lines, otherwise they/the company is also on the hook (possibly).

SinomaSo 10y ago

Serious question: wouldn't the contract state the details of what "unlimited" is?. If it doesn't, aren't they going to be sued sooner or later by someone like OP?

manyxcxi 10y ago

They are definitely not scams, but it does all depend on the manager or motivation behind having unlimited, on top of the fact that unlimited vacation presents a real financial benefit to the company by limiting the liabilities against it. My company has unlimited vacation and I didn't take any vacation from Jan 1 to May 28, then I took off 10 consecutive weeks for the birth of my daughter and a move from Seattle back to Portland. We also treat Dec 24 - Jan 2 as company holidays because so many people use their personal vacation days for that time of year and to prevent people from trying to work through the holidays and dragging others into it with them. I then followed it up closely with a few days off for a wedding I was in, a couple of fishing trips, a couple out of office days for unexpected things. I've probably taken more vacation this year than I have in my entire career excluding my honeymoon. We have a system for placing vacation requests that allows anyone to see what a given stretch of time looks like as far as people being gone, and we can track how managers respond to vacation requests as well. I guarantee that if we found a manager pulling the kind of shit that the OP's manager was pulling they'd be dealt with, probably even let go without a second chance unless they were stellar in every other way. Also, all requests go through the system, so there is none of this whispering back and forth and getting you to withdraw your request. The back and forth happens and is recorded for posterity. The only problem is, just like most other culture fits at a company, how do you know until it's too late? Also, would you personally feel comfortable using an 'unlimited' amount of vacation? My recommendation has always been to treat unlimited vacation days like bonuses and options. They are perks, but the number you're generally after is the salary, so don't discount that too much in favor of some nebulous benefits that may not materialize.

bbcbasic 10y ago
Your company sounds awesome!

amerkhalid 10y ago

Agreed. Perhaps there are some honest companies but my experience is that developers at such companies end up taking less vacation than other places. A few times, I had interviewed at such companies with unlimited vacation. I would ask about their vacations, and how many weeks they took off this year or last. Most developers would usually say they took 1-2 weeks off last year, to which I would ask that you get that everywhere, why not more? Then the answer is "oh we are so busy and we don't abuse this policy. But if we ever need to take more days off, we can". This just seems like a warning sign. If a company is advertising unlimited vacation policy, I would expect more vacations not less. All my jobs had at least 2-3 weeks off. So I always assumed unlimited vacation means less than usual vacation time.