8 ms·

Mainframes as a lifestyle choice

113 points by k4rtik 10y ago

R_haterade 10y ago
Just, why...
- Retra 10y ago
  Why what?
- oarsinsync 10y ago
  > Part of the reason I took the job was the opportunity to get paid to work on compilers, but also because I have a fascination with older computer technology. It may be worth re-reading the article.
  - R_haterade 10y ago
    You are right, I shouldn't question this guy's fascination with any tech. Especially if it's something that he can love, and do for good money. Still, mainframes...
snaky 10y ago
> It's surprisingly easy to cross the border of native z/OS and the USS border. In fact, there's no border there at all. z/OS is one operating system with two different interfaces. So apart from normal problems and hiccups, you'll probably find that the biggest problem accessing the various services will be getting used to the difference in vocabulary between USS and native z/OS. http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-bordercrossing/ http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-bordercross...
rdtsc 10y ago
Speaking of mainframes, my favorite talk on hacking IBM mainframes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfl4spvM5DI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfl4spvM5DI
emersonrsantos 10y ago
You can run IBM old OS/360 and many other mainframe OSes using hercules-390 [1], which emulates old and new mainframe architectures and has an active community [2]. [1] http://www.hercules-390.eu http://www.hercules-390.eu [2] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bercules-390 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bercules-390
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Andys 10y ago
They're good for drying undies
gaius 10y ago
Curious about his point about virtualisation; sure you can't run a VM locally but those mainframe OSs have had excellent support for VMs since the 1960s and are still in many ways far ahead of more mainstream hypervisors.
- 83457 10y ago
  He was talking about local development environment.
  - gaius 10y ago
    So why not just get himself a few dedicated VMs on the mainframe? Those things can supports thousands at a time...
insulanian 10y ago
> Part of the reason I took the job ... because I have a fascination with older computer technology. I was also thinking about going the mainframe route, also because general impression is that the mainframe developer earns big bucks. However, when I started exploring the job offers I was surprised that salaries were not that high at all. So why is that impression still around, and do mainframe developers really earn significantly more money than a full stack enterprise web developer?
- snaky 10y ago
  It depends on what the role is and many other things, the same as it is in any field. Of course, highschooler in Brazil who recently read a half of 'COBOL for dummies' in two weeks would not earn much more than other who choose 'J2EE for dummies'. Deep knowledge and experience could bring significant profit, but the same is true for almost any other industry - maybe J2EE performance consulting for z/OS with CICS would pay more than J2EE performance consulting for AIX with TXSeries but not too much more.
- zhte415 10y ago
  Mainframe is possibly the most offshored field there is in enterprise technology. There are masses of roles in India and to a lesser extent China and Phillipines where is offers a stable decent paying career for these countries. That's where the base-line and critical mass of roles are.
  - coleca 10y ago
    Very true. Because these skills are in high demand, my experience has been that employee turnover in the mainframe sector offshore is extremely high. We had a tremendous problem retaining offshore mainframers through the big BPO companies like Wipro, Cognizant, US Technologies, etc. Go through the effort to train them up, and they would get poached in no time because their skills were in such high demand, and the training cycle starts over again.
    - zhte415 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
digi_owl 10y ago
The more i learn about mainframes (and minicomputers) the more i feel that the PC world is basically rediscovering old ideas as ICs become ever more potent.
- dboreham 10y ago
  Not necessarily rediscovering, just re-implementing.
  - dbcurtis 10y ago
    Ha, ha, no. I worked as a CPU logic designer on several mainframes of different architectures before moving to Sili Valley. The "look what I just invented" arrogance I encountered astounded me. When I said something like: "You know, Seymour Cray invented that around 1959, right?" the cognitive dissonance was more than they could handle -- I was usually ignored. So, no, they aren't re-implementing, they are genuinely re-creating history and being proud of themselves for it.
    - BoorishBears 10y ago
      Can you give an example?
      - rbanffy 10y ago
        HTTP form submission and 3270 screens.
      - dbcurtis 10y ago
        Hardware hyperthreading. See CDC 6600
      - rbanffy 10y ago
        Having dedicated computers to control peripherals (like a RAID controller or a network card). To be fair, Atari and Commodore computers already had that.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
What exactly is a "mainframe" in a modern sense? I thought it exclusively referred to old-fashioned big iron. Is it a cluster? Or are we actually talking about quarter-century-old monoliths running ancient, indispensable code?
- mastax 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_mainframe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_mainframe These are completely disconnected from commodity hardware. They are descendents of System/360, with a completely custom architecture and "mainframe processors" which only run specific types of code (Java, XML, DB2). Or that's what I gather from wikipedia anyway.
  - sitharus 10y ago
    sort of. The run z/Architecture CPUs which implement a lot of backwards compatibility. In the old days you had various modules you connected with dedicated CPUs for certain tasks, you'd pay more for them. These days they have a bunch of CPUs and the amount of money you pay IBM determines what those CPUs can do. There's no physical difference between the Linux CPU, the DB2 CPU and the Java CPU, they're all the same as the main CPUs. IBM just charge you more for general purpose CPUs.
    - PeterisP 10y ago
      Ahh, I recall that we ordered an upgrade of the system hardware because we needed 4 more CPUs, and this was accomplished by sending a code that unlocked extra CPUs that had been sitting in our basement all along since the day they installed that system.
      - rollthehard6 10y ago
        At one point Sun had a similar model before RHEL + VMWare ate their lunch - https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19095-01/sfe2900.srvr/819-1269-11/cod.html https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19095-01/sfe2900.srvr/819-1269-1...
youdontknowtho 10y ago
"There are a lot of little things that don't match up with what I would consider to be standard development practice, but I'd like to think I'm mature enough to not assume it is wrong simply because it is different from what I know. Injecting some different approaches and learning a lot along the way is part of the enjoyment." That's something that I keep running into...just because something is different from what you are most comfortable with doesn't mean its wrong. It's just different. It may even have something for you to learn.
pella 10y ago
And has a Golang Port !!! "Building Go for Linux on z System" https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z/docs/wiki/Building-Go https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z/docs/wiki/Building-Go
- snaky 10y ago
  There's more > The HostBridge JavaScript Engine (HB.js) is server-side JavaScript for CICS® applications and IBM z Systems™ data assets > HB.js runs inside CICS and supports: > CICS terminal-oriented (visual) transactions (Orchestrate CICS terminal-oriented transaction micro flows as single services) > BMS, non-BMS, 3270, and CA application types > COMMAREA (non-visual) programs (Orchestrate and aggregate transactions, programs (e.g., COMMAREA), and data into single composite services) > DB2®, VSAM™, DL/I, Datacom®, and other data assets > Connectivity via HTTP, LINK/EXCI, Enhanced WebSphere MQ Extended Multi-Region Operation (MRO) https://www.hostbridge.com/index.php/products/javascript-web-services-CICS-zos https://www.hostbridge.com/index.php/products/javascript-web...
snaky 10y ago
By the way, z/OS is not the only way to run IBM mainframes. There's TPF (Transaction Processing Facility) "because a real operating system is too high level and therefore too slow for real transaction processing needs". Current users of TPF include Sabre, VISA, American Airlines, American Express, HP SHARES (formerly EDS), Holiday Inn, Alitalia, KLM, Amtrak, Marriott International, Travelport, Citibank, Citifinancial, Air Canada, Delta Air Lines, Japan Airlines and many others.

113 points by k4rtik 10y ago

R_haterade 10y ago

Just, why...

Retra 10y ago
Why what?
oarsinsync 10y ago
> Part of the reason I took the job was the opportunity to get paid to work on compilers, but also because I have a fascination with older computer technology. It may be worth re-reading the article.
- R_haterade 10y ago
  You are right, I shouldn't question this guy's fascination with any tech. Especially if it's something that he can love, and do for good money. Still, mainframes...

snaky 10y ago

> It's surprisingly easy to cross the border of native z/OS and the USS border. In fact, there's no border there at all. z/OS is one operating system with two different interfaces. So apart from normal problems and hiccups, you'll probably find that the biggest problem accessing the various services will be getting used to the difference in vocabulary between USS and native z/OS. http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-bordercrossing/ http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-bordercross...

rdtsc 10y ago

Speaking of mainframes, my favorite talk on hacking IBM mainframes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfl4spvM5DI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfl4spvM5DI

emersonrsantos 10y ago

You can run IBM old OS/360 and many other mainframe OSes using hercules-390 [1], which emulates old and new mainframe architectures and has an active community [2]. [1] http://www.hercules-390.eu http://www.hercules-390.eu [2] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bercules-390 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bercules-390

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Andys 10y ago

They're good for drying undies

gaius 10y ago

Curious about his point about virtualisation; sure you can't run a VM locally but those mainframe OSs have had excellent support for VMs since the 1960s and are still in many ways far ahead of more mainstream hypervisors.

83457 10y ago
He was talking about local development environment.
- gaius 10y ago
  So why not just get himself a few dedicated VMs on the mainframe? Those things can supports thousands at a time...

insulanian 10y ago

> Part of the reason I took the job ... because I have a fascination with older computer technology. I was also thinking about going the mainframe route, also because general impression is that the mainframe developer earns big bucks. However, when I started exploring the job offers I was surprised that salaries were not that high at all. So why is that impression still around, and do mainframe developers really earn significantly more money than a full stack enterprise web developer?

snaky 10y ago
It depends on what the role is and many other things, the same as it is in any field. Of course, highschooler in Brazil who recently read a half of 'COBOL for dummies' in two weeks would not earn much more than other who choose 'J2EE for dummies'. Deep knowledge and experience could bring significant profit, but the same is true for almost any other industry - maybe J2EE performance consulting for z/OS with CICS would pay more than J2EE performance consulting for AIX with TXSeries but not too much more.
zhte415 10y ago
Mainframe is possibly the most offshored field there is in enterprise technology. There are masses of roles in India and to a lesser extent China and Phillipines where is offers a stable decent paying career for these countries. That's where the base-line and critical mass of roles are.
- coleca 10y ago
  Very true. Because these skills are in high demand, my experience has been that employee turnover in the mainframe sector offshore is extremely high. We had a tremendous problem retaining offshore mainframers through the big BPO companies like Wipro, Cognizant, US Technologies, etc. Go through the effort to train them up, and they would get poached in no time because their skills were in such high demand, and the training cycle starts over again.
  - zhte415 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

digi_owl 10y ago

The more i learn about mainframes (and minicomputers) the more i feel that the PC world is basically rediscovering old ideas as ICs become ever more potent.

dboreham 10y ago
Not necessarily rediscovering, just re-implementing.
- dbcurtis 10y ago
  Ha, ha, no. I worked as a CPU logic designer on several mainframes of different architectures before moving to Sili Valley. The "look what I just invented" arrogance I encountered astounded me. When I said something like: "You know, Seymour Cray invented that around 1959, right?" the cognitive dissonance was more than they could handle -- I was usually ignored. So, no, they aren't re-implementing, they are genuinely re-creating history and being proud of themselves for it.
  - BoorishBears 10y ago
    Can you give an example?
    - rbanffy 10y ago
      HTTP form submission and 3270 screens.
    - dbcurtis 10y ago
      Hardware hyperthreading. See CDC 6600
    - rbanffy 10y ago
      Having dedicated computers to control peripherals (like a RAID controller or a network card). To be fair, Atari and Commodore computers already had that.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

What exactly is a "mainframe" in a modern sense? I thought it exclusively referred to old-fashioned big iron. Is it a cluster? Or are we actually talking about quarter-century-old monoliths running ancient, indispensable code?

mastax 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_mainframe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_mainframe These are completely disconnected from commodity hardware. They are descendents of System/360, with a completely custom architecture and "mainframe processors" which only run specific types of code (Java, XML, DB2). Or that's what I gather from wikipedia anyway.
- sitharus 10y ago
  sort of. The run z/Architecture CPUs which implement a lot of backwards compatibility. In the old days you had various modules you connected with dedicated CPUs for certain tasks, you'd pay more for them. These days they have a bunch of CPUs and the amount of money you pay IBM determines what those CPUs can do. There's no physical difference between the Linux CPU, the DB2 CPU and the Java CPU, they're all the same as the main CPUs. IBM just charge you more for general purpose CPUs.
  - PeterisP 10y ago
    Ahh, I recall that we ordered an upgrade of the system hardware because we needed 4 more CPUs, and this was accomplished by sending a code that unlocked extra CPUs that had been sitting in our basement all along since the day they installed that system.
    - rollthehard6 10y ago
      At one point Sun had a similar model before RHEL + VMWare ate their lunch - https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19095-01/sfe2900.srvr/819-1269-11/cod.html https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19095-01/sfe2900.srvr/819-1269-1...

youdontknowtho 10y ago

"There are a lot of little things that don't match up with what I would consider to be standard development practice, but I'd like to think I'm mature enough to not assume it is wrong simply because it is different from what I know. Injecting some different approaches and learning a lot along the way is part of the enjoyment." That's something that I keep running into...just because something is different from what you are most comfortable with doesn't mean its wrong. It's just different. It may even have something for you to learn.

pella 10y ago

And has a Golang Port !!! "Building Go for Linux on z System" https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z/docs/wiki/Building-Go https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z/docs/wiki/Building-Go

snaky 10y ago
There's more > The HostBridge JavaScript Engine (HB.js) is server-side JavaScript for CICS® applications and IBM z Systems™ data assets > HB.js runs inside CICS and supports: > CICS terminal-oriented (visual) transactions (Orchestrate CICS terminal-oriented transaction micro flows as single services) > BMS, non-BMS, 3270, and CA application types > COMMAREA (non-visual) programs (Orchestrate and aggregate transactions, programs (e.g., COMMAREA), and data into single composite services) > DB2®, VSAM™, DL/I, Datacom®, and other data assets > Connectivity via HTTP, LINK/EXCI, Enhanced WebSphere MQ Extended Multi-Region Operation (MRO) https://www.hostbridge.com/index.php/products/javascript-web-services-CICS-zos https://www.hostbridge.com/index.php/products/javascript-web...

snaky 10y ago

By the way, z/OS is not the only way to run IBM mainframes. There's TPF (Transaction Processing Facility) "because a real operating system is too high level and therefore too slow for real transaction processing needs". Current users of TPF include Sabre, VISA, American Airlines, American Express, HP SHARES (formerly EDS), Holiday Inn, Alitalia, KLM, Amtrak, Marriott International, Travelport, Citibank, Citifinancial, Air Canada, Delta Air Lines, Japan Airlines and many others.