6 ms·

On the State of Pony

116 points by spooneybarger 10y ago

zitterbewegung 10y ago
For a bit of context on what is Pony: http://www.ponylang.org http://www.ponylang.org . Are there any users of the language that would care to comment on using the language?
- spooneybarger 10y ago
  In addition to being a member of the core team, I work at a company that uses Pony and working with it every day has been a pleasure. There are plenty of rough edges to work out but the compiler has stopped me from introducing subtle data-races into our code base on more than one occasion (more like at least once a week, if not more).
  - thepumpkin1979 10y ago
    What company is that, what business is it in?
    - spooneybarger 10y ago
      Sendence. We are a start up in the high speed data analytics space. We have an emphasis on going as fast as possible while remaining accurate.
- doublec 10y ago
  I've used it in a few personal projects. I've written some thing about it here: https://bluishcoder.co.nz/tags/pony/ https://bluishcoder.co.nz/tags/pony/ The two major things that I stumbled on when I first started using Pony was that there is no blocking constructs in the language and dealing with capabilities. I've had exposure to memory safe languages using types before (ATS, Rust) so the Pony system of capabilities wasn't too difficult to understand once I was able to map them to things I was familiar with. Before that I struggled to understand why things weren't compiling. Now that things have somewhat clicked I'm pretty productive with the language. Dealing with writing non-blocking code was a matter of thinking in terms of callbacks and promises - something familiar to a lot of Node programmers I suspect. Once I got past those two things I find the language very nice to write in and easy to reason about the code. Sometimes I hit walls of struggling to work out why things aren't compiling and they eventually end up being the compiler showing me what I was trying to do would be unsafe due to data races, etc. The language is still young though so definitely something to approach with a bit of understanding that things may break.
  - 35bge57dtjku 10y ago
    Interesting website.
- karma_vaccum123 10y ago
  We know the value of constraining reference capabilities from Rust (`mut` annotations etc). Now imagine you could annotate these references even further, describing how they specifically operate wrt concurrency. To me, that is where Pony shines. We'll see more of this in other languages.
cwyers 10y ago
Does anyone have a short, paragraph or two summary of why you might choose Pony over Erlang/Elixir or Akka with Java or C#?
- spooneybarger 10y ago
  Prerequisite: You have the stomach for a relatively immature language Re Erlang/Elixir the number 1 selling point would be if you need performance that you can't get from Erlang/Elixir. Re Akka on the JVM, the number 1 selling point would be you want predictable latencies from your GC that you can't get from the JVM. Along with those, you get a type system that enforces data-race safety which now that I am using Pony daily, is the #1 selling point for me.
  - mafribe 10y ago
    Where does Pony's performance vis-a-vis Erlang/BEAM come from? The absence of dynamic typing? Better scheduler?
    - spooneybarger 10y ago
      There are a number of areas: Most message passing on BEAM is done via copying. Pony can share the memory directly because the compiler enforces safe sharing via deny capabilities. You can only send 3 basic types to another actor: iso -> mutable memory that you have the sole reference to val -> immutable reference. you can read but you can't write tag -> an opaque reference. good for sending messages to actors or doing identity comparisons The type system certainly helps as well. It allows us to give LLVM hints on optimizations it can make. The type system also helps because we can do "dangerous but fast" things safely because we can prove they are safe in this instance. Compiling to native code via LLVM is another area for performance wins. That said, Erlang has over 20 years of rock solid production usage behind it and that unto itself is a quite a selling point. At this point in time, I'd suggest Pony to Erlang/Elixir users if they need more performance, otherwise, I'd stick with Erlang for now.
      - 10y ago
buttershakes 10y ago
I am really interested in Pony. There are some exciting things about it. I'm hoping that bit syntax support from Erlang is implemented, possibly with support for recurring structures. Although, I wouldn't say that is strictly necessary if you can do some nice recursion on binaries.
scardine 10y ago
Thought it was about the Pony ORM (python)[1]. Perhaps the title should say "Pony Language". [1] https://ponyorm.com https://ponyorm.com
wtbob 10y ago
> One of the first things we did was to introduce a Code of Conduct to put in place rules for the community we sought to grow. A welcoming, thriving, civil community is what will make Pony a success. The more welcoming that community, the more people we will have driving Pony forward. I honestly find a Code of Conduct unwelcoming, as it indicates that it's very likely that what I write will be attacked due to my identity, and that I may at any time be written out of the community in a modern version of damnatio memoriæ, even if I maintain a strict wall between my personal and professional lives (witness the people who attempted to shut down LambaConf because they disagree with Curtis Yarvin). A Code of Conduct longer than 'be professional' is a signal that the community which professes it is hostile. They are, of course, free to be hostile; I am free to choose not to join them.
- sanxiyn 10y ago
  I think it is important to note that LambdaConf 2016 was successful. In organizers' own words, "It just means there is a space in this world for an indie conference that rigorously ensures professional conduct at the event, but leaves other matters at the door." People who protested against LambdaConf 2016 organized alternative confrence MoonConf at the same place at the same time. Two conferences had cordial relationship. Nothing people worried about actually happened. http://degoes.net/articles/post-lambdaconf-2016 http://degoes.net/articles/post-lambdaconf-2016
- rurban 10y ago
  I have no idea why they did put this COC policy there, but no discussion so far went into a hostile direction, even on grave technical opposition. Rather the opposite.
- ebiester 10y ago
  I parse this, but this makes no sense to me. Don't be an asshole. Don't be an asshole to women. Don't be an asshole to sexual or racial minorities. Be a decent human being. Don't harass people. If someone's identity is predicated on being an asshole, it will drive non-assholes out. I'm glad that assholes will self-select themselves out of such situations. But perhaps I am prejudiced. I prefer the company of non-assholes.

116 points by spooneybarger 10y ago

For a bit of context on what is Pony: http://www.ponylang.org http://www.ponylang.org . Are there any users of the language that would care to comment on using the language?

spooneybarger 10y ago
In addition to being a member of the core team, I work at a company that uses Pony and working with it every day has been a pleasure. There are plenty of rough edges to work out but the compiler has stopped me from introducing subtle data-races into our code base on more than one occasion (more like at least once a week, if not more).
- thepumpkin1979 10y ago
  What company is that, what business is it in?
  - spooneybarger 10y ago
    Sendence. We are a start up in the high speed data analytics space. We have an emphasis on going as fast as possible while remaining accurate.
doublec 10y ago
I've used it in a few personal projects. I've written some thing about it here: https://bluishcoder.co.nz/tags/pony/ https://bluishcoder.co.nz/tags/pony/ The two major things that I stumbled on when I first started using Pony was that there is no blocking constructs in the language and dealing with capabilities. I've had exposure to memory safe languages using types before (ATS, Rust) so the Pony system of capabilities wasn't too difficult to understand once I was able to map them to things I was familiar with. Before that I struggled to understand why things weren't compiling. Now that things have somewhat clicked I'm pretty productive with the language. Dealing with writing non-blocking code was a matter of thinking in terms of callbacks and promises - something familiar to a lot of Node programmers I suspect. Once I got past those two things I find the language very nice to write in and easy to reason about the code. Sometimes I hit walls of struggling to work out why things aren't compiling and they eventually end up being the compiler showing me what I was trying to do would be unsafe due to data races, etc. The language is still young though so definitely something to approach with a bit of understanding that things may break.
- 35bge57dtjku 10y ago
  Interesting website.
karma_vaccum123 10y ago
We know the value of constraining reference capabilities from Rust (`mut` annotations etc). Now imagine you could annotate these references even further, describing how they specifically operate wrt concurrency. To me, that is where Pony shines. We'll see more of this in other languages.

cwyers 10y ago

Does anyone have a short, paragraph or two summary of why you might choose Pony over Erlang/Elixir or Akka with Java or C#?

spooneybarger 10y ago
Prerequisite: You have the stomach for a relatively immature language Re Erlang/Elixir the number 1 selling point would be if you need performance that you can't get from Erlang/Elixir. Re Akka on the JVM, the number 1 selling point would be you want predictable latencies from your GC that you can't get from the JVM. Along with those, you get a type system that enforces data-race safety which now that I am using Pony daily, is the #1 selling point for me.
- mafribe 10y ago
  Where does Pony's performance vis-a-vis Erlang/BEAM come from? The absence of dynamic typing? Better scheduler?
  - spooneybarger 10y ago
    There are a number of areas: Most message passing on BEAM is done via copying. Pony can share the memory directly because the compiler enforces safe sharing via deny capabilities. You can only send 3 basic types to another actor: iso -> mutable memory that you have the sole reference to val -> immutable reference. you can read but you can't write tag -> an opaque reference. good for sending messages to actors or doing identity comparisons The type system certainly helps as well. It allows us to give LLVM hints on optimizations it can make. The type system also helps because we can do "dangerous but fast" things safely because we can prove they are safe in this instance. Compiling to native code via LLVM is another area for performance wins. That said, Erlang has over 20 years of rock solid production usage behind it and that unto itself is a quite a selling point. At this point in time, I'd suggest Pony to Erlang/Elixir users if they need more performance, otherwise, I'd stick with Erlang for now.
    - 10y ago

buttershakes 10y ago

I am really interested in Pony. There are some exciting things about it. I'm hoping that bit syntax support from Erlang is implemented, possibly with support for recurring structures. Although, I wouldn't say that is strictly necessary if you can do some nice recursion on binaries.

scardine 10y ago

Thought it was about the Pony ORM (python)[1]. Perhaps the title should say "Pony Language". [1] https://ponyorm.com https://ponyorm.com

wtbob 10y ago

> One of the first things we did was to introduce a Code of Conduct to put in place rules for the community we sought to grow. A welcoming, thriving, civil community is what will make Pony a success. The more welcoming that community, the more people we will have driving Pony forward. I honestly find a Code of Conduct unwelcoming, as it indicates that it's very likely that what I write will be attacked due to my identity, and that I may at any time be written out of the community in a modern version of damnatio memoriæ, even if I maintain a strict wall between my personal and professional lives (witness the people who attempted to shut down LambaConf because they disagree with Curtis Yarvin). A Code of Conduct longer than 'be professional' is a signal that the community which professes it is hostile. They are, of course, free to be hostile; I am free to choose not to join them.

sanxiyn 10y ago
I think it is important to note that LambdaConf 2016 was successful. In organizers' own words, "It just means there is a space in this world for an indie conference that rigorously ensures professional conduct at the event, but leaves other matters at the door." People who protested against LambdaConf 2016 organized alternative confrence MoonConf at the same place at the same time. Two conferences had cordial relationship. Nothing people worried about actually happened. http://degoes.net/articles/post-lambdaconf-2016 http://degoes.net/articles/post-lambdaconf-2016
rurban 10y ago
I have no idea why they did put this COC policy there, but no discussion so far went into a hostile direction, even on grave technical opposition. Rather the opposite.
ebiester 10y ago
I parse this, but this makes no sense to me. Don't be an asshole. Don't be an asshole to women. Don't be an asshole to sexual or racial minorities. Be a decent human being. Don't harass people. If someone's identity is predicated on being an asshole, it will drive non-assholes out. I'm glad that assholes will self-select themselves out of such situations. But perhaps I am prejudiced. I prefer the company of non-assholes.