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I'm Scandinavian and live in Romania right now. I have quite good experience with the computer people, but the other locals... If I go to two dentists and ask

by berntb 10y ago

I'm Scandinavian and live in Romania right now. I have quite good experience with the computer people, but the other locals... If I go to two dentists and ask what needs to be done, it is ~ 30% risk they both insist on expensive treatments -- but different ones... If they don't realize I live there, the stores often screw themselves out of a good customer. And so on. I'd describe it as the locals like more to screw people over than they like to earn money. I assumed it was some remaining cultural damage from the dictatorship, with short sightedness a good strategy since they couldn't plan? But maybe it is a more general thing?

RodericDay 10y ago
Yes. It would be naive and racist to just assume that people just aren't trusting for some arbitrary reason. A lot of it is rooted in memory of having experienced exploitation and abuse from "official authorities" that they could not trust, for they were merely the enforcers of plutocrats.
- rayiner 10y ago
  It's not "racist" to recognize failings in cultures. My dad left Bangladesh because he didn't want to raise kids in a country where he had to pay a bribe just to get a second phone line installed. That cultural trait isn't something us Bangladeshis get to blame on the British or whatever. It's deep-seated and long-standing. And it holds us back as a country and a people. What we really don't need is people calling any criticism of those cultural traits "racist." It's not healthy for the cultures that need external pressure to overcome these problems, and it undermines the internal reformers trying to move beyond them.
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    I think it is pretty racist to posit that the source is mysterious and possibly sticky to the people as they migrate and uphold visibly cultural habits such as dress and language. Peruvians haggle and bribe cops because it's fresh in everyone's memory that cops weren't impartial agents of justice, but paid-up enforcers of the colonizers. I expect the same holds for Bangladeshis. "Cultural traits" follow the money. In the 70s, South Koreans were a lazy, unproductive people. Now the stereotype is workaholic to the point of suicide. In the 1800s, Germans were thieves, now they're industrious. Look at culture if you want, but it's going to be much less instructive than economics and history. edit: It seems I "triggered" some of our resident race realists, since these posts are garnering a lot of silent downvotes lol
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - rayiner 10y ago
      It's not "mysterious." It's what parents teach their kids and what kids observe growing up. Take, for example, the issue of domestic violence. In the U.S. (at least, outside of certain subcultures), if people find out you're beating you're wife you become a social pariah. In Bangladesh, it's just an "issue" everyone tries to help the couple "overcome." No wonder 87% of women in Bangladesh are victims. And just so I'm not beating up on Bangladesh--I think Americans' treatment of criminals represents a profound cultural failing. Kids hear jokes about people getting raped in prison or see life sentences for minor crimes as routine. It's a defect in the morals of the people no different than say the muslim world's treatment of homosexuals or the culture of petty bribery endemic in India and Bangladesh. Calling it racist to point those things out elevates cultural sensitivity above justice.
      - RodericDay 10y ago
        Maybe mysterious was the wrong word. Saying the issue is "cultural" is, imo, a bit of a dog whistle. Conceptually it acts like a black box, and it evokes solutions like "exporting our culture", and ties the bad in their society with their essence rather than their circumstances. This is why I don't like it. I didn't mean to chastise you, I think you're one of the best posters around here. Insofar society and culture are used interchangeably, there's no issue with anything you said. Insofar "culture" is a polite way of talking about race, it can can be pretty bad.
        golergka 10y ago
        But it's not a black box — it's a pretty straightforward thing. Of course, it usually has corellation with racial and ethnical groups, so critique of certain culture will always land close to racism. But also, a lot of naive racists just don't think abiut the issue enough to word it right. Racism is wrong for two very simple reasons: (1) there's no causation between person's ethnicity and moral values, as you yourself mentioned about Korea, and (2) it's something a person cannot change about himself. At the same time, both things are different for cultures.
  - syedkarim 10y ago
    "My dad left Bangladesh because he didn't want to raise kids in a country where he had to pay a bribe just to get a second phone line installed." That's exactly why my parents left. My dad had a much better life in Bangladesh than he would face coming to the US, but he just wasn't interested in the mental cost of participating in Bangladeshi society. Race is an ill-defined term coined when science was often quackery. We should really move on.
  - splintercell 10y ago
    "My dad left Bangladesh because he didn't want to raise kids in a country where he had to pay a bribe just to get a second phone line installed." In India we had this problem, I have two anecdotes which demonstrate this. In 1992 we waited for over a year to get a phone line installed at our place. When the 'lineman' came, we offered him lunch, and I'm sure the dad paid him money for the service. Fast forward 12 years later in 2004. During this time, Indian government liberalized the telecom market and allowed private sector to provide telecom services. In 2004, my dad got a temporary phone line for the summer vacation so that I can have faster internet. He got it within 2 days of applying for it. Two months later when my dad wanted to cancel it, the telecom company people kept on trying to make him keep the connection. After an hour of negotiations (when they tried to sweeten the deal) they finally agreed to cancel it. I'm just saying that it was the same town, same group of people, the difference was clearly in the economic system they were following. The culture evolves in response to the systematic pressures. Change the system, and you'd change the culture.
tim333 10y ago
India used to be awful like that. It's improved a fair bit though still isn't great. Maybe it's the improved prosperity that's helped.
ilaksh 10y ago
Its because Romania is poor, and capitalism is about taking advantage of people. Its just that in rich countries its much more subtle.
- berntb 10y ago
  Quite big claims, do you have serious references?
  - Inthenameofmine 10y ago
    Depending where you're coming from it might be the contrary view that needs references at this point.
    - berntb 10y ago
      We talk about a claim that complex social/psychological behaviour is a result of a way to organize a country's economy. This phenomenon is seen in different continents in quite different countries. So where are you "coming from" where such sweeping claims don't need good support..?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Capitalism is a system wherein man exploits man. Socialism is vice versa. However, at least in Europe, the trust seems to be higher and the related benefits of social capital seem to be bigger in countries that have had a working market economy for a longer time: Britain, Germany, Sweden. Not former COMECON countries where much of current population was educated during the era of real socialism.
0xmohit 10y ago
> If I go to two dentists and ask what needs to be done, it is ~ 30% risk they both insist on expensive treatments -- but different ones... In India, doctors are mostly eager to perform surgery upon you. In a case where the symptoms clearly indicated Carpal Tunnel Syndrome [0], the doctor insisted upon a CT scan to be followed by surgery claiming it to be muscle atrophy [1]. (This is from personal experience. A couple of months later, a reputed doctor from one of the best medical institutes in the country confirmed that it was CTS and no surgery was required.) I've heard of multiple cases where they continued to keep a (dead) patient in ICU so that they could continue to keep billing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_atrophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_atrophy
berntb 10y ago
I should explain my reasoning since it went away on racism(!) accusations, even if it is so late no one will read it. :-) According to what I've read, the biggest difference in social parameters from my native Nordic place and Romania is trust. Trust in other people, in the state, in the police and so on. It is a quite logical result in an ex dictatorship that had a brutal secret police. I assumed the complete lack of trust in others was a large reason behind the lack of foresight and planning. "A stranger, let's get his money!" But -- it is not everyone that do this. That said, as long as no money is involved it is like being on Ireland. People are really nice and friendly. Less violence here than in the North. And so on. That this attitude is international will make me reevaluate my thinking. (Next time someone implies racism as the basis of something, I'll just call them "pederast" -- with as much support... :-) But I will admit to racism on one point -- I am deeply convinced that people from Hungary and from Asia are all good cooks. :-) )

by berntb 10y ago

RodericDay 10y ago

Yes. It would be naive and racist to just assume that people just aren't trusting for some arbitrary reason. A lot of it is rooted in memory of having experienced exploitation and abuse from "official authorities" that they could not trust, for they were merely the enforcers of plutocrats.

rayiner 10y ago
It's not "racist" to recognize failings in cultures. My dad left Bangladesh because he didn't want to raise kids in a country where he had to pay a bribe just to get a second phone line installed. That cultural trait isn't something us Bangladeshis get to blame on the British or whatever. It's deep-seated and long-standing. And it holds us back as a country and a people. What we really don't need is people calling any criticism of those cultural traits "racist." It's not healthy for the cultures that need external pressure to overcome these problems, and it undermines the internal reformers trying to move beyond them.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  I think it is pretty racist to posit that the source is mysterious and possibly sticky to the people as they migrate and uphold visibly cultural habits such as dress and language. Peruvians haggle and bribe cops because it's fresh in everyone's memory that cops weren't impartial agents of justice, but paid-up enforcers of the colonizers. I expect the same holds for Bangladeshis. "Cultural traits" follow the money. In the 70s, South Koreans were a lazy, unproductive people. Now the stereotype is workaholic to the point of suicide. In the 1800s, Germans were thieves, now they're industrious. Look at culture if you want, but it's going to be much less instructive than economics and history. edit: It seems I "triggered" some of our resident race realists, since these posts are garnering a lot of silent downvotes lol
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 10y ago
    It's not "mysterious." It's what parents teach their kids and what kids observe growing up. Take, for example, the issue of domestic violence. In the U.S. (at least, outside of certain subcultures), if people find out you're beating you're wife you become a social pariah. In Bangladesh, it's just an "issue" everyone tries to help the couple "overcome." No wonder 87% of women in Bangladesh are victims. And just so I'm not beating up on Bangladesh--I think Americans' treatment of criminals represents a profound cultural failing. Kids hear jokes about people getting raped in prison or see life sentences for minor crimes as routine. It's a defect in the morals of the people no different than say the muslim world's treatment of homosexuals or the culture of petty bribery endemic in India and Bangladesh. Calling it racist to point those things out elevates cultural sensitivity above justice.
    - RodericDay 10y ago
      Maybe mysterious was the wrong word. Saying the issue is "cultural" is, imo, a bit of a dog whistle. Conceptually it acts like a black box, and it evokes solutions like "exporting our culture", and ties the bad in their society with their essence rather than their circumstances. This is why I don't like it. I didn't mean to chastise you, I think you're one of the best posters around here. Insofar society and culture are used interchangeably, there's no issue with anything you said. Insofar "culture" is a polite way of talking about race, it can can be pretty bad.
      - golergka 10y ago
        But it's not a black box — it's a pretty straightforward thing. Of course, it usually has corellation with racial and ethnical groups, so critique of certain culture will always land close to racism. But also, a lot of naive racists just don't think abiut the issue enough to word it right. Racism is wrong for two very simple reasons: (1) there's no causation between person's ethnicity and moral values, as you yourself mentioned about Korea, and (2) it's something a person cannot change about himself. At the same time, both things are different for cultures.
- syedkarim 10y ago
  "My dad left Bangladesh because he didn't want to raise kids in a country where he had to pay a bribe just to get a second phone line installed." That's exactly why my parents left. My dad had a much better life in Bangladesh than he would face coming to the US, but he just wasn't interested in the mental cost of participating in Bangladeshi society. Race is an ill-defined term coined when science was often quackery. We should really move on.
- splintercell 10y ago
  "My dad left Bangladesh because he didn't want to raise kids in a country where he had to pay a bribe just to get a second phone line installed." In India we had this problem, I have two anecdotes which demonstrate this. In 1992 we waited for over a year to get a phone line installed at our place. When the 'lineman' came, we offered him lunch, and I'm sure the dad paid him money for the service. Fast forward 12 years later in 2004. During this time, Indian government liberalized the telecom market and allowed private sector to provide telecom services. In 2004, my dad got a temporary phone line for the summer vacation so that I can have faster internet. He got it within 2 days of applying for it. Two months later when my dad wanted to cancel it, the telecom company people kept on trying to make him keep the connection. After an hour of negotiations (when they tried to sweeten the deal) they finally agreed to cancel it. I'm just saying that it was the same town, same group of people, the difference was clearly in the economic system they were following. The culture evolves in response to the systematic pressures. Change the system, and you'd change the culture.

tim333 10y ago

India used to be awful like that. It's improved a fair bit though still isn't great. Maybe it's the improved prosperity that's helped.

ilaksh 10y ago

Its because Romania is poor, and capitalism is about taking advantage of people. Its just that in rich countries its much more subtle.

berntb 10y ago
Quite big claims, do you have serious references?
- Inthenameofmine 10y ago
  Depending where you're coming from it might be the contrary view that needs references at this point.
  - berntb 10y ago
    We talk about a claim that complex social/psychological behaviour is a result of a way to organize a country's economy. This phenomenon is seen in different continents in quite different countries. So where are you "coming from" where such sweeping claims don't need good support..?
ptaipale 10y ago
Capitalism is a system wherein man exploits man. Socialism is vice versa. However, at least in Europe, the trust seems to be higher and the related benefits of social capital seem to be bigger in countries that have had a working market economy for a longer time: Britain, Germany, Sweden. Not former COMECON countries where much of current population was educated during the era of real socialism.

0xmohit 10y ago

> If I go to two dentists and ask what needs to be done, it is ~ 30% risk they both insist on expensive treatments -- but different ones... In India, doctors are mostly eager to perform surgery upon you. In a case where the symptoms clearly indicated Carpal Tunnel Syndrome [0], the doctor insisted upon a CT scan to be followed by surgery claiming it to be muscle atrophy [1]. (This is from personal experience. A couple of months later, a reputed doctor from one of the best medical institutes in the country confirmed that it was CTS and no surgery was required.) I've heard of multiple cases where they continued to keep a (dead) patient in ICU so that they could continue to keep billing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_atrophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_atrophy

berntb 10y ago

I should explain my reasoning since it went away on racism(!) accusations, even if it is so late no one will read it. :-) According to what I've read, the biggest difference in social parameters from my native Nordic place and Romania is trust. Trust in other people, in the state, in the police and so on. It is a quite logical result in an ex dictatorship that had a brutal secret police. I assumed the complete lack of trust in others was a large reason behind the lack of foresight and planning. "A stranger, let's get his money!" But -- it is not everyone that do this. That said, as long as no money is involved it is like being on Ireland. People are really nice and friendly. Less violence here than in the North. And so on. That this attitude is international will make me reevaluate my thinking. (Next time someone implies racism as the basis of something, I'll just call them "pederast" -- with as much support... :-) But I will admit to racism on one point -- I am deeply convinced that people from Hungary and from Asia are all good cooks. :-) )