6 ms·

Man, I feel the same way. I grew up in Peru, and throughout my life it was very common to talk about "gringos" as if they were incredibly naive, trusting idiot

Man, I feel the same way. I grew up in Peru, and throughout my life it was very common to talk about "gringos" as if they were incredibly naive, trusting idiots that could easily be swindled every which way. I swear the national motto could easily have been "el que no es conchudo muere por cojudo" (if you're not trying to take advantage of someone, you'll get punished for being an idiot). I was intrigued by this because, being pretty bad at haggling and swindling, I thought that trust is what let these "gringos" carry on with their business with a bit more focus, not look behind their backs at all times, trying to haggle everyone lest they get swindled by someone. Eventually I moved to Canada, and I was sort of validated in terms of things being so much better when ie: you don't have to haggle with every cabbie, or cop. Unfortuantely, in terms of social trust, I cannot really tell whether Peru is becoming more like Canada, or Canada more like Peru.

berntb 10y ago
I'm Scandinavian and live in Romania right now. I have quite good experience with the computer people, but the other locals... If I go to two dentists and ask what needs to be done, it is ~ 30% risk they both insist on expensive treatments -- but different ones... If they don't realize I live there, the stores often screw themselves out of a good customer. And so on. I'd describe it as the locals like more to screw people over than they like to earn money. I assumed it was some remaining cultural damage from the dictatorship, with short sightedness a good strategy since they couldn't plan? But maybe it is a more general thing?
- RodericDay 10y ago
  Yes. It would be naive and racist to just assume that people just aren't trusting for some arbitrary reason. A lot of it is rooted in memory of having experienced exploitation and abuse from "official authorities" that they could not trust, for they were merely the enforcers of plutocrats.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    It's not "racist" to recognize failings in cultures. My dad left Bangladesh because he didn't want to raise kids in a country where he had to pay a bribe just to get a second phone line installed. That cultural trait isn't something us Bangladeshis get to blame on the British or whatever. It's deep-seated and long-standing. And it holds us back as a country and a people. What we really don't need is people calling any criticism of those cultural traits "racist." It's not healthy for the cultures that need external pressure to overcome these problems, and it undermines the internal reformers trying to move beyond them.
    - RodericDay 10y ago
      I think it is pretty racist to posit that the source is mysterious and possibly sticky to the people as they migrate and uphold visibly cultural habits such as dress and language. Peruvians haggle and bribe cops because it's fresh in everyone's memory that cops weren't impartial agents of justice, but paid-up enforcers of the colonizers. I expect the same holds for Bangladeshis. "Cultural traits" follow the money. In the 70s, South Koreans were a lazy, unproductive people. Now the stereotype is workaholic to the point of suicide. In the 1800s, Germans were thieves, now they're industrious. Look at culture if you want, but it's going to be much less instructive than economics and history. edit: It seems I "triggered" some of our resident race realists, since these posts are garnering a lot of silent downvotes lol
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - rayiner 10y ago
        It's not "mysterious." It's what parents teach their kids and what kids observe growing up. Take, for example, the issue of domestic violence. In the U.S. (at least, outside of certain subcultures), if people find out you're beating you're wife you become a social pariah. In Bangladesh, it's just an "issue" everyone tries to help the couple "overcome." No wonder 87% of women in Bangladesh are victims. And just so I'm not beating up on Bangladesh--I think Americans' treatment of criminals represents a profound cultural failing. Kids hear jokes about people getting raped in prison or see life sentences for minor crimes as routine. It's a defect in the morals of the people no different than say the muslim world's treatment of homosexuals or the culture of petty bribery endemic in India and Bangladesh. Calling it racist to point those things out elevates cultural sensitivity above justice.
- tim333 10y ago
  India used to be awful like that. It's improved a fair bit though still isn't great. Maybe it's the improved prosperity that's helped.
- ilaksh 10y ago
  Its because Romania is poor, and capitalism is about taking advantage of people. Its just that in rich countries its much more subtle.
  - berntb 10y ago
    Quite big claims, do you have serious references?
    - Inthenameofmine 10y ago
      Depending where you're coming from it might be the contrary view that needs references at this point.
      - berntb 10y ago
        We talk about a claim that complex social/psychological behaviour is a result of a way to organize a country's economy. This phenomenon is seen in different continents in quite different countries. So where are you "coming from" where such sweeping claims don't need good support..?
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Capitalism is a system wherein man exploits man. Socialism is vice versa. However, at least in Europe, the trust seems to be higher and the related benefits of social capital seem to be bigger in countries that have had a working market economy for a longer time: Britain, Germany, Sweden. Not former COMECON countries where much of current population was educated during the era of real socialism.
- 0xmohit 10y ago
  > If I go to two dentists and ask what needs to be done, it is ~ 30% risk they both insist on expensive treatments -- but different ones... In India, doctors are mostly eager to perform surgery upon you. In a case where the symptoms clearly indicated Carpal Tunnel Syndrome [0], the doctor insisted upon a CT scan to be followed by surgery claiming it to be muscle atrophy [1]. (This is from personal experience. A couple of months later, a reputed doctor from one of the best medical institutes in the country confirmed that it was CTS and no surgery was required.) I've heard of multiple cases where they continued to keep a (dead) patient in ICU so that they could continue to keep billing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_atrophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_atrophy
- berntb 10y ago
  I should explain my reasoning since it went away on racism(!) accusations, even if it is so late no one will read it. :-) According to what I've read, the biggest difference in social parameters from my native Nordic place and Romania is trust. Trust in other people, in the state, in the police and so on. It is a quite logical result in an ex dictatorship that had a brutal secret police. I assumed the complete lack of trust in others was a large reason behind the lack of foresight and planning. "A stranger, let's get his money!" But -- it is not everyone that do this. That said, as long as no money is involved it is like being on Ireland. People are really nice and friendly. Less violence here than in the North. And so on. That this attitude is international will make me reevaluate my thinking. (Next time someone implies racism as the basis of something, I'll just call them "pederast" -- with as much support... :-) But I will admit to racism on one point -- I am deeply convinced that people from Hungary and from Asia are all good cooks. :-) )

berntb 10y ago

I'm Scandinavian and live in Romania right now. I have quite good experience with the computer people, but the other locals... If I go to two dentists and ask what needs to be done, it is ~ 30% risk they both insist on expensive treatments -- but different ones... If they don't realize I live there, the stores often screw themselves out of a good customer. And so on. I'd describe it as the locals like more to screw people over than they like to earn money. I assumed it was some remaining cultural damage from the dictatorship, with short sightedness a good strategy since they couldn't plan? But maybe it is a more general thing?

RodericDay 10y ago
Yes. It would be naive and racist to just assume that people just aren't trusting for some arbitrary reason. A lot of it is rooted in memory of having experienced exploitation and abuse from "official authorities" that they could not trust, for they were merely the enforcers of plutocrats.
- rayiner 10y ago
  It's not "racist" to recognize failings in cultures. My dad left Bangladesh because he didn't want to raise kids in a country where he had to pay a bribe just to get a second phone line installed. That cultural trait isn't something us Bangladeshis get to blame on the British or whatever. It's deep-seated and long-standing. And it holds us back as a country and a people. What we really don't need is people calling any criticism of those cultural traits "racist." It's not healthy for the cultures that need external pressure to overcome these problems, and it undermines the internal reformers trying to move beyond them.
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    I think it is pretty racist to posit that the source is mysterious and possibly sticky to the people as they migrate and uphold visibly cultural habits such as dress and language. Peruvians haggle and bribe cops because it's fresh in everyone's memory that cops weren't impartial agents of justice, but paid-up enforcers of the colonizers. I expect the same holds for Bangladeshis. "Cultural traits" follow the money. In the 70s, South Koreans were a lazy, unproductive people. Now the stereotype is workaholic to the point of suicide. In the 1800s, Germans were thieves, now they're industrious. Look at culture if you want, but it's going to be much less instructive than economics and history. edit: It seems I "triggered" some of our resident race realists, since these posts are garnering a lot of silent downvotes lol
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - rayiner 10y ago
      It's not "mysterious." It's what parents teach their kids and what kids observe growing up. Take, for example, the issue of domestic violence. In the U.S. (at least, outside of certain subcultures), if people find out you're beating you're wife you become a social pariah. In Bangladesh, it's just an "issue" everyone tries to help the couple "overcome." No wonder 87% of women in Bangladesh are victims. And just so I'm not beating up on Bangladesh--I think Americans' treatment of criminals represents a profound cultural failing. Kids hear jokes about people getting raped in prison or see life sentences for minor crimes as routine. It's a defect in the morals of the people no different than say the muslim world's treatment of homosexuals or the culture of petty bribery endemic in India and Bangladesh. Calling it racist to point those things out elevates cultural sensitivity above justice.
tim333 10y ago
India used to be awful like that. It's improved a fair bit though still isn't great. Maybe it's the improved prosperity that's helped.
ilaksh 10y ago
Its because Romania is poor, and capitalism is about taking advantage of people. Its just that in rich countries its much more subtle.
- berntb 10y ago
  Quite big claims, do you have serious references?
  - Inthenameofmine 10y ago
    Depending where you're coming from it might be the contrary view that needs references at this point.
    - berntb 10y ago
      We talk about a claim that complex social/psychological behaviour is a result of a way to organize a country's economy. This phenomenon is seen in different continents in quite different countries. So where are you "coming from" where such sweeping claims don't need good support..?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Capitalism is a system wherein man exploits man. Socialism is vice versa. However, at least in Europe, the trust seems to be higher and the related benefits of social capital seem to be bigger in countries that have had a working market economy for a longer time: Britain, Germany, Sweden. Not former COMECON countries where much of current population was educated during the era of real socialism.
0xmohit 10y ago
> If I go to two dentists and ask what needs to be done, it is ~ 30% risk they both insist on expensive treatments -- but different ones... In India, doctors are mostly eager to perform surgery upon you. In a case where the symptoms clearly indicated Carpal Tunnel Syndrome [0], the doctor insisted upon a CT scan to be followed by surgery claiming it to be muscle atrophy [1]. (This is from personal experience. A couple of months later, a reputed doctor from one of the best medical institutes in the country confirmed that it was CTS and no surgery was required.) I've heard of multiple cases where they continued to keep a (dead) patient in ICU so that they could continue to keep billing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_atrophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_atrophy
berntb 10y ago
I should explain my reasoning since it went away on racism(!) accusations, even if it is so late no one will read it. :-) According to what I've read, the biggest difference in social parameters from my native Nordic place and Romania is trust. Trust in other people, in the state, in the police and so on. It is a quite logical result in an ex dictatorship that had a brutal secret police. I assumed the complete lack of trust in others was a large reason behind the lack of foresight and planning. "A stranger, let's get his money!" But -- it is not everyone that do this. That said, as long as no money is involved it is like being on Ireland. People are really nice and friendly. Less violence here than in the North. And so on. That this attitude is international will make me reevaluate my thinking. (Next time someone implies racism as the basis of something, I'll just call them "pederast" -- with as much support... :-) But I will admit to racism on one point -- I am deeply convinced that people from Hungary and from Asia are all good cooks. :-) )