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I (sort of) agree that having many languages encourages diversity and coexistence of different cultures. However, I think that apparent drawbacks outweigh any p

I (sort of) agree that having many languages encourages diversity and coexistence of different cultures. However, I think that apparent drawbacks outweigh any potential benefits. As a native Russian speaker, I know just how excruciating learning English can get. I have been learning it for 12 years, and most of the time it was no fun. For example, I once literally memorised 1500 words over a few months. Still, I cannot say that I speak as well as native speakers do. Most Russians never make it past learning to say "I don't speak English" with a funny accent. By the way, if you are an English speaker, you probably don't realise what it means not to know English. Let me assure you: it's horrible.

sverige 10y ago
I'm a native English speaker who learned Russian. It has to be harder to learn English, though Russian was no picnic. Though I was once maybe 75% fluent speaking (and could understand 90% of what Gorbachev said - he speaks pretty fast), I haven't used it for 25 years and so have forgotten most of it. I do remember that it was easy to spell, especially compared to English. I also remember that Russian verbs of motion were hard to get right, and declining numbers and certain adjectives correctly was tough. English has become the new lingua franca (still cracks me up to pause and consider that literally), for better or worse. For all its faults, English is very flexible and can be precise, despite the fact that it's not often used for that feature. Most native speakers I know would be surprised to learn how many verb tenses English there are, and even more surprised at their proper use. The MLA and AP styles haven't helped that cause any.
- HillRat 10y ago
  >English has become the new lingua franca (still cracks me up to pause and consider that literally), for better or worse. On a completely pedantic note, lingua franca doesn't actually refer to what I think most people associate it with (the use of French as the diplomatic language of the 18th and 19th centuries in particular). It actually means the language of the franj, the "Franks," or Western Europeans. The original lingua franca was a pidgin Italian with a lot of Arabic and Turkish loanwords, the result of the Venetian dominance of the Levantine sea trade. Of course, in a purely literal sense, using it in phrases like, "Gulf media Arabic is the lingua franca of the Middle East" is itself wrong. Tiresome pedantry complete, please carry on.
  - haddr 10y ago
    I think 'lingua franca' is never used in a purely literal sense, so probably nobody even thought about what you mention (which is definitely true)
  - sverige 10y ago
    TIL
  - taneq 10y ago
    This particular tiresome pedantry was quite interesting. Thanks!
  - mitchtbaum 10y ago
    > lingua franca doesn't actually refer to what I think most people associate it with Wikipedia users also make that mistake: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Common_language&redirect=no https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Common_language&r...
- shitgoose 10y ago
  "it was easy to spell" Yep. Russian speaker is always puzzled by North American obsession with "spelling". Spelling competitions etc. In Russian if you want to "spell" a word, just say it slowly. No big deal really.
- gaius 10y ago
  English has become the new lingua franca It's funnier if you say "de facto lingua franca" :-) But the strength of English is that you can freely mix in words from other languages and there is enough redundancy that your meaning will probably be understood anyway, and eventually the word will simply be absorbed - and that's where alot of the irregularity came from. There's no Academie Francaise equivalent to police it and no-one even wants one.
- Alexey_Nigin 10y ago
  Actually, declining numbers is something most native Russian speakers can't do. Even people on TV, whose job is to speak correctly, often struggle with it. Moreover, in the Russian translation of the Empire Strikes Back, C3PO's line "Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately three thousand seven hundred and twenty to one" has the number declined a wrong way.
  - sverige 10y ago
    That makes me feel better then!
gkya 10y ago
Memorising is such an ineffective way to study language, it's like cutting down a big tree with a pair of scissors. Lots of research has been done on the topic, and many methods invented. The key is skipping complex grammar and working on comprehension and production from as early as day one, every day and trying to think in the target language. It seems silly, but does work.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > The key is skipping complex grammar I personally tend to think about languages a lot in terms of grammar. The reason might be that in German (my native language) grammar plays a much larger role (four cases and lots of rules for declination and conjugation) than in English (also in Russian grammar plays a very central role, as far as I know). As I have often written on Hacker News when learning German I would strongly recommend to get the grammar by heart (yes, it is complex and ugly), until you don't have to think about it anymore (if necessary by rote memorization) since > trying to think in the target language for German means thinking in the German grammar. Any approach that tries to skip grammar at the beginning will soon confuse learners, because for example verbs are typically associated with some class of object (either based on a case or a preposition) and if you use it wrong often the meaning can change. For example : auf etwas warten (to wait for something) has to be used with an accusative, so "Ich warte auf den Zug" (I'm waiting for the train) is correct If you use a dative instead, this is also yields a correct sentence, but with a completely different meaning "Ich warte auf dem Zug" means you are on the top of the train and waiting, since "auf" followed by dative is a local adverbial. So learn the grammar correctly from the beginning.
  - gkya 10y ago
    Grammar is a science, and it's not necessary to speak a language. My mother tongue is Turkish, an agglutinative vocal-harmonising beast with hundreds of suffixes, yet I don't need any grammar while speaking nor while reading or writing. I'll start my archaeology double major in short, and German seems to be quite an important language in the field, so I'll have to learn that. I'll use my way and see if you and the others who agree you are right that German requires heavy grammar. Though I can reasonably guess that I'll start reading research by the six months mark.
bsder 10y ago
> For example, I once literally memorised 1500 words over a few months. If you want to do things like pass the SAT, even native English speakers have to sit down and memorize about 6000 words over the course of a year or two. Learning a language sucks. Period.
fapjacks 10y ago
I've been using Duolingo to learn Russian every day for a few months. I'm just finally getting somewhat confident about all of the Russian characters, and the "weird" sounds made through the various character combinations that change the pronunciation of the individual characters. I'm no dumbass, being able to speak two other languages besides my native English (which weren't learned through Duolingo, though I really like it). There just must be something tough about learning the other, between Russian and English.

sverige 10y ago

I'm a native English speaker who learned Russian. It has to be harder to learn English, though Russian was no picnic. Though I was once maybe 75% fluent speaking (and could understand 90% of what Gorbachev said - he speaks pretty fast), I haven't used it for 25 years and so have forgotten most of it. I do remember that it was easy to spell, especially compared to English. I also remember that Russian verbs of motion were hard to get right, and declining numbers and certain adjectives correctly was tough. English has become the new lingua franca (still cracks me up to pause and consider that literally), for better or worse. For all its faults, English is very flexible and can be precise, despite the fact that it's not often used for that feature. Most native speakers I know would be surprised to learn how many verb tenses English there are, and even more surprised at their proper use. The MLA and AP styles haven't helped that cause any.

HillRat 10y ago
>English has become the new lingua franca (still cracks me up to pause and consider that literally), for better or worse. On a completely pedantic note, lingua franca doesn't actually refer to what I think most people associate it with (the use of French as the diplomatic language of the 18th and 19th centuries in particular). It actually means the language of the franj, the "Franks," or Western Europeans. The original lingua franca was a pidgin Italian with a lot of Arabic and Turkish loanwords, the result of the Venetian dominance of the Levantine sea trade. Of course, in a purely literal sense, using it in phrases like, "Gulf media Arabic is the lingua franca of the Middle East" is itself wrong. Tiresome pedantry complete, please carry on.
- haddr 10y ago
  I think 'lingua franca' is never used in a purely literal sense, so probably nobody even thought about what you mention (which is definitely true)
- sverige 10y ago
  TIL
- taneq 10y ago
  This particular tiresome pedantry was quite interesting. Thanks!
- mitchtbaum 10y ago
  > lingua franca doesn't actually refer to what I think most people associate it with Wikipedia users also make that mistake: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Common_language&redirect=no https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Common_language&r...
shitgoose 10y ago
"it was easy to spell" Yep. Russian speaker is always puzzled by North American obsession with "spelling". Spelling competitions etc. In Russian if you want to "spell" a word, just say it slowly. No big deal really.
gaius 10y ago
English has become the new lingua franca It's funnier if you say "de facto lingua franca" :-) But the strength of English is that you can freely mix in words from other languages and there is enough redundancy that your meaning will probably be understood anyway, and eventually the word will simply be absorbed - and that's where alot of the irregularity came from. There's no Academie Francaise equivalent to police it and no-one even wants one.
Alexey_Nigin 10y ago
Actually, declining numbers is something most native Russian speakers can't do. Even people on TV, whose job is to speak correctly, often struggle with it. Moreover, in the Russian translation of the Empire Strikes Back, C3PO's line "Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately three thousand seven hundred and twenty to one" has the number declined a wrong way.
- sverige 10y ago
  That makes me feel better then!

gkya 10y ago

Memorising is such an ineffective way to study language, it's like cutting down a big tree with a pair of scissors. Lots of research has been done on the topic, and many methods invented. The key is skipping complex grammar and working on comprehension and production from as early as day one, every day and trying to think in the target language. It seems silly, but does work.

wolfgke 10y ago
> The key is skipping complex grammar I personally tend to think about languages a lot in terms of grammar. The reason might be that in German (my native language) grammar plays a much larger role (four cases and lots of rules for declination and conjugation) than in English (also in Russian grammar plays a very central role, as far as I know). As I have often written on Hacker News when learning German I would strongly recommend to get the grammar by heart (yes, it is complex and ugly), until you don't have to think about it anymore (if necessary by rote memorization) since > trying to think in the target language for German means thinking in the German grammar. Any approach that tries to skip grammar at the beginning will soon confuse learners, because for example verbs are typically associated with some class of object (either based on a case or a preposition) and if you use it wrong often the meaning can change. For example : auf etwas warten (to wait for something) has to be used with an accusative, so "Ich warte auf den Zug" (I'm waiting for the train) is correct If you use a dative instead, this is also yields a correct sentence, but with a completely different meaning "Ich warte auf dem Zug" means you are on the top of the train and waiting, since "auf" followed by dative is a local adverbial. So learn the grammar correctly from the beginning.
- gkya 10y ago
  Grammar is a science, and it's not necessary to speak a language. My mother tongue is Turkish, an agglutinative vocal-harmonising beast with hundreds of suffixes, yet I don't need any grammar while speaking nor while reading or writing. I'll start my archaeology double major in short, and German seems to be quite an important language in the field, so I'll have to learn that. I'll use my way and see if you and the others who agree you are right that German requires heavy grammar. Though I can reasonably guess that I'll start reading research by the six months mark.

bsder 10y ago

> For example, I once literally memorised 1500 words over a few months. If you want to do things like pass the SAT, even native English speakers have to sit down and memorize about 6000 words over the course of a year or two. Learning a language sucks. Period.

fapjacks 10y ago

I've been using Duolingo to learn Russian every day for a few months. I'm just finally getting somewhat confident about all of the Russian characters, and the "weird" sounds made through the various character combinations that change the pronunciation of the individual characters. I'm no dumbass, being able to speak two other languages besides my native English (which weren't learned through Duolingo, though I really like it). There just must be something tough about learning the other, between Russian and English.