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I read posts like this often, and I think the author makes the common geek mistake of assuming that the way normal people use computers is a subset of how geeks

I read posts like this often, and I think the author makes the common geek mistake of assuming that the way normal people use computers is a subset of how geeks use them. Take out all the programming, modding and even file handling and you get what ordinary users need. This is not true. Non-geeks use computers in all kinds of ways geeks never think of. They use a very specific genealogy application. They connect an obscure 10 year old water sample analyzer. They connect a keyboard and record music. This is why all attempts to make a simplified limited computer over the years have failed. Ordinary people need the full flexibility of a computer. Make it simple to use, but not limited.

lallysingh 17y ago
Close. They won't put up with vendor laziness that geeks will. For example, convoluted/unnecessarily hard configuration or software installation. Or, take the hideous wireless configuration work required on linux for years, versus the simple drop-down menu on the mac.
- kerkeslager 17y ago
  I don't know if I would go so far as to disagree with TorKlingberg, but I do see the trend you mention. Technically expert users will do whatever it takes to get a product they want to work, even if it really isn't worth the effort. This is why we can't have nice things. It amazes me the number of projects that require that I build from source, in a specific directory, with these options and these dependencies installed. If I can, I avoid such projects on principle. What's worse is, I've been accused of being lazy or too dumb to run such projects. It's not that I can't or won't install these products: I don't want to waste my time doing so if it can be helped. I'm just expecting the same thing of other developers as I expect from myself. If my product is versioned 1.0 or higher, I expect that it a) has an installer (Windows-style) b) comes in a package (.deb et al) c) comes via a manager (apt-get), or d) runs in-place (WinSCP/PUTTY/uTorrent).
acgourley 17y ago
It's a valid point, but I don't think you can consider an iPad or other similar device to be 'limited' if they contain a modern web browser. They may not have a midi interface or connect to old devices, but I think you over estimate how many people need that.
njharman 17y ago
> all attempts to make a simplified limited computer over the years have failed Really? Ever heard about iTouch/iPhone? They are the very definition of > Make it simple to use, but not limited. Tivo is another simplified, very limited computer. That is the nature of consumer devices. Limited but exceptionally simple and "just works" at the thing they do.
- Kejistan 17y ago
  And yet you don't buy an iPhone as a replacement for your computer. People still need a "real" computer, and for that reason we're probably not going to see computers go the way of the dodo in favor of iPads.
  - DannoHung 17y ago
    Well, uh, isn't this how Apple is marketing the iPad? The thing you use when you're not out and about but don't want to deal with "the computer"? The computing device that takes care of 80% of your day to day computing needs? (ie: Watching videos of kittens on YouTube) And heck, even if that's the case and the "real computer" turns into an incredible niche device, do we even need the power of a gigantic desktop machine with 8 gigs of RAM and the super duper video card? I don't know about you guys, but all I need is a terminal and I can do 99.9% of the hacking I want to do (sometimes I use gitk).
  - evgen 17y ago
    The only reason my parents don't use an iPhone as a replacement for their computer is the screen size. The only reason. For a reasonably large subset of "people" a 'real' computer is an unnecessarily complicated device.
- TorKlingberg 17y ago
  As Kejistan said, you don't buy an iPhone instead of a computer. Most people are used to phones that can make calls, send messages and little more, so the iPhone is more capable. Tivo is also not a replacement for a computer, but for less capable movie/tv players. Most people may just be browsing the web most of the time, but they also use the computer to copy photos from a camera, make party invitations, etc. Netbooks may not be suitable for running Photoshop and Excel, but they can when you need to. This is why they are so popular.
swernli 17y ago
I don't think there is anything wrong with saying, you just have to have the right device for the right task. If what you need is to check email and browse websites, get something that does that. It might do more, but if that's all you need, than it doesn't have to do more. Likewise, if you need a "very specific genealogy application" then you know you have to get something that runs that. Just because some customers need something specific doesn't mean that everyone needs something that can do everything. You just need to find the right thing fo the job. Case in point, I have a friend who was going on a multi-year trip to Australia. She wanted to get a computer that could travel with her, run skype, let her update her blog and upload pictures. Other than that, she didn't need anything else. She may do heavy picture editting on her Macbook at home, but she realized for a trip like this, all she needed was a netbook with linux on it. She got skype and webbrowsing, and the ability to pull pictures off of her camera. She realized a full Macbook or Windows laptop would've been overkill, so picked the right tool for what she needed.
joe_the_user 17y ago
Woo Hoo, Parent is the best explanation so far why brain dead machines won't win. I remember a Bus-to-RV conversions Web BBS ten years where one poster wrote a DOS program to calculate the optimal Bus conversion layout. This is why all attempts to make a simplified limited computer over the years have failed. Ordinary people need the full flexibility of a computer. Make it simple to use, but not limited. Yes... Yes, they failed, from Al Gore's "Information Super Highway" to the original AOL on down. Thank God. Richard Stallman's Right Read based it's description very directly on the publish specs of the Information Super Highway. But Stallman didn't sink it. The demands of ordinary people, which only an open net could satisfy, were what defeated it.
LeChuck 17y ago
Yeah. I've read a lot of articles lately that try to divide the entire computer-using world in to two groups. The geeks (us) and the rest (mom). That doesn't jive with reality. There are a lot of people with different levels of computer savvy.

lallysingh 17y ago

Close. They won't put up with vendor laziness that geeks will. For example, convoluted/unnecessarily hard configuration or software installation. Or, take the hideous wireless configuration work required on linux for years, versus the simple drop-down menu on the mac.

kerkeslager 17y ago
I don't know if I would go so far as to disagree with TorKlingberg, but I do see the trend you mention. Technically expert users will do whatever it takes to get a product they want to work, even if it really isn't worth the effort. This is why we can't have nice things. It amazes me the number of projects that require that I build from source, in a specific directory, with these options and these dependencies installed. If I can, I avoid such projects on principle. What's worse is, I've been accused of being lazy or too dumb to run such projects. It's not that I can't or won't install these products: I don't want to waste my time doing so if it can be helped. I'm just expecting the same thing of other developers as I expect from myself. If my product is versioned 1.0 or higher, I expect that it a) has an installer (Windows-style) b) comes in a package (.deb et al) c) comes via a manager (apt-get), or d) runs in-place (WinSCP/PUTTY/uTorrent).

acgourley 17y ago

It's a valid point, but I don't think you can consider an iPad or other similar device to be 'limited' if they contain a modern web browser. They may not have a midi interface or connect to old devices, but I think you over estimate how many people need that.

njharman 17y ago

> all attempts to make a simplified limited computer over the years have failed Really? Ever heard about iTouch/iPhone? They are the very definition of > Make it simple to use, but not limited. Tivo is another simplified, very limited computer. That is the nature of consumer devices. Limited but exceptionally simple and "just works" at the thing they do.

Kejistan 17y ago
And yet you don't buy an iPhone as a replacement for your computer. People still need a "real" computer, and for that reason we're probably not going to see computers go the way of the dodo in favor of iPads.
- DannoHung 17y ago
  Well, uh, isn't this how Apple is marketing the iPad? The thing you use when you're not out and about but don't want to deal with "the computer"? The computing device that takes care of 80% of your day to day computing needs? (ie: Watching videos of kittens on YouTube) And heck, even if that's the case and the "real computer" turns into an incredible niche device, do we even need the power of a gigantic desktop machine with 8 gigs of RAM and the super duper video card? I don't know about you guys, but all I need is a terminal and I can do 99.9% of the hacking I want to do (sometimes I use gitk).
- evgen 17y ago
  The only reason my parents don't use an iPhone as a replacement for their computer is the screen size. The only reason. For a reasonably large subset of "people" a 'real' computer is an unnecessarily complicated device.
TorKlingberg 17y ago
As Kejistan said, you don't buy an iPhone instead of a computer. Most people are used to phones that can make calls, send messages and little more, so the iPhone is more capable. Tivo is also not a replacement for a computer, but for less capable movie/tv players. Most people may just be browsing the web most of the time, but they also use the computer to copy photos from a camera, make party invitations, etc. Netbooks may not be suitable for running Photoshop and Excel, but they can when you need to. This is why they are so popular.

swernli 17y ago

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying, you just have to have the right device for the right task. If what you need is to check email and browse websites, get something that does that. It might do more, but if that's all you need, than it doesn't have to do more. Likewise, if you need a "very specific genealogy application" then you know you have to get something that runs that. Just because some customers need something specific doesn't mean that everyone needs something that can do everything. You just need to find the right thing fo the job. Case in point, I have a friend who was going on a multi-year trip to Australia. She wanted to get a computer that could travel with her, run skype, let her update her blog and upload pictures. Other than that, she didn't need anything else. She may do heavy picture editting on her Macbook at home, but she realized for a trip like this, all she needed was a netbook with linux on it. She got skype and webbrowsing, and the ability to pull pictures off of her camera. She realized a full Macbook or Windows laptop would've been overkill, so picked the right tool for what she needed.

joe_the_user 17y ago

Woo Hoo, Parent is the best explanation so far why brain dead machines won't win. I remember a Bus-to-RV conversions Web BBS ten years where one poster wrote a DOS program to calculate the optimal Bus conversion layout. This is why all attempts to make a simplified limited computer over the years have failed. Ordinary people need the full flexibility of a computer. Make it simple to use, but not limited. Yes... Yes, they failed, from Al Gore's "Information Super Highway" to the original AOL on down. Thank God. Richard Stallman's Right Read based it's description very directly on the publish specs of the Information Super Highway. But Stallman didn't sink it. The demands of ordinary people, which only an open net could satisfy, were what defeated it.

LeChuck 17y ago

Yeah. I've read a lot of articles lately that try to divide the entire computer-using world in to two groups. The geeks (us) and the rest (mom). That doesn't jive with reality. There are a lot of people with different levels of computer savvy.