9 ms·

If it was not for DRM removal tools I would have recently been screwed by Amazon, here is my story: I was a longtime customer (easily 10 years or more I think)

by throwaway1974 10y ago

If it was not for DRM removal tools I would have recently been screwed by Amazon, here is my story: I was a longtime customer (easily 10 years or more I think) and have bought every version of Kindle to have come out over the years (unfortunately they break easily) and have build up a large collection Recently I replaced the debit card on my account as the old one expired, placed and order for a digital game code for my xbox one (done it many times before) and bang my account was nuked. Yes I used 2fa no my account was not hacked by anyone. No I never abused their refund policy as some people do. Yes I tried resetting my password and get an email about password change BUT still can not login as it errors out. I must have rang dozen of times (chat doesnt work if you dont have an account) and send as many emails to everyone from support to jeff@amazon.com (apparently this is a shortcut to get attention to your case) in all cases was told an "account specialist" would get in contact, yadda yadda but no luck. If it was not for deDRM tools (which I started to use after the 1984 "incident" few years back) all of my books would have been unreadable now, had to deregister the kindle too since account doesnt work. I wonder how many people who are not as tech savy get screwed and are left with nothing.

bsharitt 10y ago
I'll only buy DRM content as long as I can easily remove it, and right now the only DRM content I regularly buy is books mostly from Google and Amazon. The first thing i strip the DRM and archive it.
- pdkl95 10y ago
  I recommend against the buy-and-strip approach, because you are still signaling that you are ok with (some) DRM. The only signal you are sending back to the manufacturer is your purchase. The only thing the manufacturer sees is how the addition of DRM affects their profit, and you're telling them that the DRM is acceptable.
  - patrec 10y ago
    This battle is lost and the reality is already much worse than just DRM. It is increasingly impossible to actually own digital content and all content is moving to digital. You only lease at the revocable pleasure of some multi-billion dollar corporation. No resale, no inheritance, no right of refusal of obnoxious TOS changes if you want continued access. Yes, for some technical books it is still possible to buy a DRM free pdf and have something approximating ownership rights, including resale -- for example http://shop.oreilly.com/category/customer-service/ebooks.do http://shop.oreilly.com/category/customer-service/ebooks.do. But as far as I can tell that's only true for a tiny techical niche -- if there is an alternative to kindle, amazon etc. that actually has a reasonable selection and true ownership I'd love to hear about it.
    - pdkl95 10y ago
      Yes, you might have to do without some things. This is why some of us were making a lot of noise about this problem 20+ years ago, when sending the message that "leasing"/DRM isn't acceptable didn't require a significant sacrifice. Unfortunately everyone - including engineers that should have known better - was more interested in the media industry's shiny baubles than investing their future property rights. So now that same fight will probably require some amount of sacrifice. Are you willing to pay that cost now? Or do you want to wait while this transfer of rights to continues? This cost will only increase the more we allow DRM to spread.
      - patrec 10y ago
        You seem to imply I have a moral obligation to make sacrifices for the cause of consumer rights, but realistically any call to collective action that imposes comparatively large costs to the individual for very slim chances of success is doomed to failure and a misdirection of energies that would better be spent elsewhere. I will continue to seek out and prefer non-DRM, non-leased content where available at acceptable cost, but consumers voting with their wallets is not going to solve this.
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        Well, we had Stallman saying those things for decades, and everyone in tech mocked and ignored him instead.
  - dexterdog 10y ago
    DRM is acceptable to me as long as it is removable. I'll let them think that they are getting one over on me when they are not.
T0T0R0 10y ago
The only scenario, in which DRM makes any sense at all, is B2B patronage. Other businesses probably SHOULD license hobbled, encrypted garbage from provider businesses. It's a use case where a collective group of people decide to use a pre-defined set of noises and pictures for some reason or another. But who cares why, and no one on the consumer side of that transaction really owns the media samples directly. The provider company owns the masters and the subscriber company owns the user license, and outside of the context of the companies in question, those things might be worthless curiosities. But for individual consumers, DRM makes no fucking sense at all. It's abusive corporate group-think from square one. Any implementation that causes you to question whether you should share something with your friends, lest you harm a business that extracts money from you, is something of an abomination.
- acdha 10y ago
  A lot of this comes down to terminology: the people who are the most upset about DRM are the people who thought they were “buying” something in the same manner as a physical item and are at some point rudely reminded that the company considers it more like a temporary license. Very few people mind services like Netflix or Spotify because it's extremely clear that you're paying for a month of access at a time. I doubt we're going to get much legal change in the short term but imagine how different the discussion would be if there was a clear labeling law which required either labeling things as rentals with a very clear time window or the company is required to either provide access or refund your money should their system lock you out.
  - nickbauman 10y ago
    This is why generally I don't buy Amazon stuff for my kindle. 99% of my kindle contains stuff that was either free in the first place (ibilio, gutenberg proj, etc) or was purchased without DRM installed. I made an exception with Audible but I'm going to cancel it because while I love the idea of Audible, I've been racking up freebees every month and not pulling the trigger because I just don't have the time.
    - 10y ago
superuser2 10y ago
I've taken to viewing Kindle books as a very expensive indefinite-but-temporary library loan. Between the years+ length of the borrowing period, instant delivery, lighted screen, compactness, and travel-friendliness it can be worth the premium over a public library loan. In dollars per hour of entertainment, it's better than some options. But it is ultimately a rental. If you have a relatively progressive library and prefer to cope with scarcity by waiting for a "digital copy" to become available and then reading the book in a narrow time window (rather than paying ~$10), you can generally get an actual temporary Kindle book from your library for free. If the Kindle price is too high for a book that will eventually leave your possession, buy it on paper.
- kakarot 10y ago
  Orrrr support a non-DRM publisher. Ya know
  - wlesieutre 10y ago
    Kobo sells some books without DRM. But there's no way to search by it, and it's no longer mentioned on the search results page. It used to be, but they removed that for god knows what reason. Now you have to click on a book and scroll down to the bottom of the page to check the download options. But hey, still better than Amazon and Nook. EDIT: if anyone's a fan of fantasy, all of Brandon Sanderson's stuff is DRMless. That's the example I can remember off the top of my head. Details section down below the reviews, you'll see "Download options:EPUB 3 (DRM-Free)" Example here https://store.kobobooks.com/en-us/ebook/the-way-of-kings-1 https://store.kobobooks.com/en-us/ebook/the-way-of-kings-1
    - lfowles 10y ago
      Amazon and BN sell _some_ books without DRM as well. To encompass your Sanderson example, all of Tor ebooks[0] are DRM free regardless of distribution channel. [0]: http://www.tor.com/2012/07/20/torforge-e-books-are-now-drm-free/ http://www.tor.com/2012/07/20/torforge-e-books-are-now-drm-f...
vollmond 10y ago
And now I know what I'm doing tonight.
derekp7 10y ago
The recourse for anyone else would be a lawsuit in small claims court. That would at least get their attention, and possibly an issue resolution.
- lmm 10y ago
  Credit card chargebacks for every kindle book you bought? Would probably remove all chance of reconciliation, but it would send a message.
  - daenney 10y ago
    I doubt it works just like that. If you do that you'll have to file for a claim, which will then be investigated by your bank or credit issuer. There's some procedures around what you can and cannot claim for and more things that need to happen according to the Fair Credit Billing Act (in the US). Since you've already taken possession of the good and used it I'm not sure you'll get much out of it though I have no idea how this would even work/apply to digital works. And I doubt they'll let you go back years.
  - rspeer 10y ago
    Your credit card company needs Amazon more than they need you. They would side with Amazon.
Yetanfou 10y ago
Don't rely on any 'official' solution to maintain your digital library as those are sure to stop working in one way (company goes bankrupt or gets bought) or another (planned obsolescence, forced upgrade, etc) in a few years time. Configure your own using one of the existing tools; if you use Owncloud or Nextcloud you could use my OPDS Catalog app (https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php?content=168132 https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php?content=168132), possibly combined with Reader (https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php/Reader+(ebook+reader)?content=167127 https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php/Reader+(ebook+rea...) for when you happen to be without a reader device. Try to send the industry a signal by refusing to buy encumbered books (DRM, proprietary formats, etc). If you feel like you absolutely must have a book which is only available in an encumbered format I'd suggest you convert it to an open and unencumbered format as soon as you get your hands on it. Store it in this format, it should be usable in years to come. Keep good backups, this is one of the advantages of a digital library which partly offsets its greater vulnerability to disaster compared to a physical library. It takes a lot of effort to destroy a physical library, but a simple rm -rf will do for a digital one. Store your backups in several locations, off-site, somewhere out on the 'net in an encrypted container file (free cloud storage accounts are handy for this purpose, just refresh them every now and then and don't rely on them as a single source).
- vidarh 10y ago
  Second this. While I do occasionally buy Kindle books, I only buy them as long as the DRM is straightforward to remove. The moment they get aggressive about DRM, it'll be the last time I ever buy one. I don't feel strongly enough about it to avoid books I want to read that are only available with DRM, but I do insist on having an unencumbered copy. And when a book is available from a source I know are good about not using DRM, I will aim to buy from there, and buy direct in preference to buying from a DRM-friendly outlet - e.g. I prefer to buy from O'Reilly direct for that reason. The only form of "DRM" I don't mind are the e-book stores that provide you with a personalised copy that includes my name/e-mail, but otherwise leaves the book unprotected.
  - kefka 10y ago
    >The only form of "DRM" I don't mind are the e-book stores that provide you with a personalised copy that includes my name/e-mail, but otherwise leaves the book unprotected. And that also implies that you give up right of resale. I can sell a physical book after I have it. I can choose to write my name in there... Or not. Having my name plastered as you indicate is OK, means giving up my own guaranteed rights of resale.
hga 10y ago
Wow, thanks for the implicit warning, I've been an Amazon customer since a year after they opened, am using them very heavily right now as I remodel and move to a small house built in 1910, and it would be crippling to be disconnected from my order history and wish lists. I've only bought a very few Kindle books sold for $0 or on deep discount, never bought a Kindle, and only bought 1-2 digital copies of music when the CD was out of print and way too expensive. No way will I buy another digital item from Amazon if they make it this dangerous.... I don't think they want this outcome, but the more they savage their customers like they did you, the more it'll happen.
skolos 10y ago
Comment on "Kindle breaks easily". I have different experience. About 6 years ago I got Kindle for my birthday. Happily used it for half a year and then misplaced and couldn't find it for another half a year. Then I found it - it fell in a gap in my outside furniture and was lying outside exposed to elements for all this time. To bring it back to life all I needed is to charge it - used it for more than 5 years after that without any issues.
- Noos 10y ago
  i've gone through multiple ones myself, the e-ink screen is the big failure point.
- derekp7 10y ago
  My significant other ends up going through about 1 kindle every year or so. She uses the backlight and reads it sometimes 2 - 4 hours a day. What happens is it starts randomly crashing or locking up, or just acting wonky when it hits around the 1 year mark.
- anbende 10y ago
  Same here. I got a paperwhite for Christmas 4-5 years ago. No problems. Still works well. And I use it every day. The battery doesn't last as long as it used to, but it's still good for days. I do keep the backlight as low as possible...
criddell 10y ago
If you can document this, you should contact the EFF legal team and offer your testimony as someone harmed by DRM. I'm not anti-copyright or pro-piracy in any way, but if I had lost everything I bought because of a DRM snafu, I'd have no ethical concerns torrenting new copies of the things I lost. In fact, if Amazon upgrades their Kindle DRM so that it is no longer easily removed, I think I would probably torrent copies of things I buy just so I have an effective backup.
joesmo 10y ago
I'm not surprised. Amazon treats its customers like shit. They sell a lot of shit products from China especially that break immediately and they don't care. They do NOT have a refund policy like the one you claim other people violate, but they will shut down accounts randomly with messages about violating said NONEXISTENT policy, even accounts that haven't had returns. Their algorithms are shit, in other words. You should sue them, seriously, in small claims.

bsharitt 10y ago

I'll only buy DRM content as long as I can easily remove it, and right now the only DRM content I regularly buy is books mostly from Google and Amazon. The first thing i strip the DRM and archive it.

pdkl95 10y ago
I recommend against the buy-and-strip approach, because you are still signaling that you are ok with (some) DRM. The only signal you are sending back to the manufacturer is your purchase. The only thing the manufacturer sees is how the addition of DRM affects their profit, and you're telling them that the DRM is acceptable.
- patrec 10y ago
  This battle is lost and the reality is already much worse than just DRM. It is increasingly impossible to actually own digital content and all content is moving to digital. You only lease at the revocable pleasure of some multi-billion dollar corporation. No resale, no inheritance, no right of refusal of obnoxious TOS changes if you want continued access. Yes, for some technical books it is still possible to buy a DRM free pdf and have something approximating ownership rights, including resale -- for example http://shop.oreilly.com/category/customer-service/ebooks.do http://shop.oreilly.com/category/customer-service/ebooks.do. But as far as I can tell that's only true for a tiny techical niche -- if there is an alternative to kindle, amazon etc. that actually has a reasonable selection and true ownership I'd love to hear about it.
  - pdkl95 10y ago
    Yes, you might have to do without some things. This is why some of us were making a lot of noise about this problem 20+ years ago, when sending the message that "leasing"/DRM isn't acceptable didn't require a significant sacrifice. Unfortunately everyone - including engineers that should have known better - was more interested in the media industry's shiny baubles than investing their future property rights. So now that same fight will probably require some amount of sacrifice. Are you willing to pay that cost now? Or do you want to wait while this transfer of rights to continues? This cost will only increase the more we allow DRM to spread.
    - patrec 10y ago
      You seem to imply I have a moral obligation to make sacrifices for the cause of consumer rights, but realistically any call to collective action that imposes comparatively large costs to the individual for very slim chances of success is doomed to failure and a misdirection of energies that would better be spent elsewhere. I will continue to seek out and prefer non-DRM, non-leased content where available at acceptable cost, but consumers voting with their wallets is not going to solve this.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Well, we had Stallman saying those things for decades, and everyone in tech mocked and ignored him instead.
- dexterdog 10y ago
  DRM is acceptable to me as long as it is removable. I'll let them think that they are getting one over on me when they are not.

T0T0R0 10y ago

The only scenario, in which DRM makes any sense at all, is B2B patronage. Other businesses probably SHOULD license hobbled, encrypted garbage from provider businesses. It's a use case where a collective group of people decide to use a pre-defined set of noises and pictures for some reason or another. But who cares why, and no one on the consumer side of that transaction really owns the media samples directly. The provider company owns the masters and the subscriber company owns the user license, and outside of the context of the companies in question, those things might be worthless curiosities. But for individual consumers, DRM makes no fucking sense at all. It's abusive corporate group-think from square one. Any implementation that causes you to question whether you should share something with your friends, lest you harm a business that extracts money from you, is something of an abomination.

acdha 10y ago
A lot of this comes down to terminology: the people who are the most upset about DRM are the people who thought they were “buying” something in the same manner as a physical item and are at some point rudely reminded that the company considers it more like a temporary license. Very few people mind services like Netflix or Spotify because it's extremely clear that you're paying for a month of access at a time. I doubt we're going to get much legal change in the short term but imagine how different the discussion would be if there was a clear labeling law which required either labeling things as rentals with a very clear time window or the company is required to either provide access or refund your money should their system lock you out.
- nickbauman 10y ago
  This is why generally I don't buy Amazon stuff for my kindle. 99% of my kindle contains stuff that was either free in the first place (ibilio, gutenberg proj, etc) or was purchased without DRM installed. I made an exception with Audible but I'm going to cancel it because while I love the idea of Audible, I've been racking up freebees every month and not pulling the trigger because I just don't have the time.
  - 10y ago

superuser2 10y ago

I've taken to viewing Kindle books as a very expensive indefinite-but-temporary library loan. Between the years+ length of the borrowing period, instant delivery, lighted screen, compactness, and travel-friendliness it can be worth the premium over a public library loan. In dollars per hour of entertainment, it's better than some options. But it is ultimately a rental. If you have a relatively progressive library and prefer to cope with scarcity by waiting for a "digital copy" to become available and then reading the book in a narrow time window (rather than paying ~$10), you can generally get an actual temporary Kindle book from your library for free. If the Kindle price is too high for a book that will eventually leave your possession, buy it on paper.

kakarot 10y ago
Orrrr support a non-DRM publisher. Ya know
- wlesieutre 10y ago
  Kobo sells some books without DRM. But there's no way to search by it, and it's no longer mentioned on the search results page. It used to be, but they removed that for god knows what reason. Now you have to click on a book and scroll down to the bottom of the page to check the download options. But hey, still better than Amazon and Nook. EDIT: if anyone's a fan of fantasy, all of Brandon Sanderson's stuff is DRMless. That's the example I can remember off the top of my head. Details section down below the reviews, you'll see "Download options:EPUB 3 (DRM-Free)" Example here https://store.kobobooks.com/en-us/ebook/the-way-of-kings-1 https://store.kobobooks.com/en-us/ebook/the-way-of-kings-1
  - lfowles 10y ago
    Amazon and BN sell _some_ books without DRM as well. To encompass your Sanderson example, all of Tor ebooks[0] are DRM free regardless of distribution channel. [0]: http://www.tor.com/2012/07/20/torforge-e-books-are-now-drm-free/ http://www.tor.com/2012/07/20/torforge-e-books-are-now-drm-f...

vollmond 10y ago

And now I know what I'm doing tonight.

derekp7 10y ago

The recourse for anyone else would be a lawsuit in small claims court. That would at least get their attention, and possibly an issue resolution.

lmm 10y ago
Credit card chargebacks for every kindle book you bought? Would probably remove all chance of reconciliation, but it would send a message.
- daenney 10y ago
  I doubt it works just like that. If you do that you'll have to file for a claim, which will then be investigated by your bank or credit issuer. There's some procedures around what you can and cannot claim for and more things that need to happen according to the Fair Credit Billing Act (in the US). Since you've already taken possession of the good and used it I'm not sure you'll get much out of it though I have no idea how this would even work/apply to digital works. And I doubt they'll let you go back years.
- rspeer 10y ago
  Your credit card company needs Amazon more than they need you. They would side with Amazon.

Yetanfou 10y ago

Don't rely on any 'official' solution to maintain your digital library as those are sure to stop working in one way (company goes bankrupt or gets bought) or another (planned obsolescence, forced upgrade, etc) in a few years time. Configure your own using one of the existing tools; if you use Owncloud or Nextcloud you could use my OPDS Catalog app (https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php?content=168132 https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php?content=168132), possibly combined with Reader (https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php/Reader+(ebook+reader)?content=167127 https://apps.owncloud.com/content/show.php/Reader+(ebook+rea...) for when you happen to be without a reader device. Try to send the industry a signal by refusing to buy encumbered books (DRM, proprietary formats, etc). If you feel like you absolutely must have a book which is only available in an encumbered format I'd suggest you convert it to an open and unencumbered format as soon as you get your hands on it. Store it in this format, it should be usable in years to come. Keep good backups, this is one of the advantages of a digital library which partly offsets its greater vulnerability to disaster compared to a physical library. It takes a lot of effort to destroy a physical library, but a simple rm -rf will do for a digital one. Store your backups in several locations, off-site, somewhere out on the 'net in an encrypted container file (free cloud storage accounts are handy for this purpose, just refresh them every now and then and don't rely on them as a single source).

vidarh 10y ago
Second this. While I do occasionally buy Kindle books, I only buy them as long as the DRM is straightforward to remove. The moment they get aggressive about DRM, it'll be the last time I ever buy one. I don't feel strongly enough about it to avoid books I want to read that are only available with DRM, but I do insist on having an unencumbered copy. And when a book is available from a source I know are good about not using DRM, I will aim to buy from there, and buy direct in preference to buying from a DRM-friendly outlet - e.g. I prefer to buy from O'Reilly direct for that reason. The only form of "DRM" I don't mind are the e-book stores that provide you with a personalised copy that includes my name/e-mail, but otherwise leaves the book unprotected.
- kefka 10y ago
  >The only form of "DRM" I don't mind are the e-book stores that provide you with a personalised copy that includes my name/e-mail, but otherwise leaves the book unprotected. And that also implies that you give up right of resale. I can sell a physical book after I have it. I can choose to write my name in there... Or not. Having my name plastered as you indicate is OK, means giving up my own guaranteed rights of resale.

hga 10y ago

Wow, thanks for the implicit warning, I've been an Amazon customer since a year after they opened, am using them very heavily right now as I remodel and move to a small house built in 1910, and it would be crippling to be disconnected from my order history and wish lists. I've only bought a very few Kindle books sold for $0 or on deep discount, never bought a Kindle, and only bought 1-2 digital copies of music when the CD was out of print and way too expensive. No way will I buy another digital item from Amazon if they make it this dangerous.... I don't think they want this outcome, but the more they savage their customers like they did you, the more it'll happen.

skolos 10y ago

Comment on "Kindle breaks easily". I have different experience. About 6 years ago I got Kindle for my birthday. Happily used it for half a year and then misplaced and couldn't find it for another half a year. Then I found it - it fell in a gap in my outside furniture and was lying outside exposed to elements for all this time. To bring it back to life all I needed is to charge it - used it for more than 5 years after that without any issues.

Noos 10y ago
i've gone through multiple ones myself, the e-ink screen is the big failure point.
derekp7 10y ago
My significant other ends up going through about 1 kindle every year or so. She uses the backlight and reads it sometimes 2 - 4 hours a day. What happens is it starts randomly crashing or locking up, or just acting wonky when it hits around the 1 year mark.
anbende 10y ago
Same here. I got a paperwhite for Christmas 4-5 years ago. No problems. Still works well. And I use it every day. The battery doesn't last as long as it used to, but it's still good for days. I do keep the backlight as low as possible...

criddell 10y ago

If you can document this, you should contact the EFF legal team and offer your testimony as someone harmed by DRM. I'm not anti-copyright or pro-piracy in any way, but if I had lost everything I bought because of a DRM snafu, I'd have no ethical concerns torrenting new copies of the things I lost. In fact, if Amazon upgrades their Kindle DRM so that it is no longer easily removed, I think I would probably torrent copies of things I buy just so I have an effective backup.

joesmo 10y ago

I'm not surprised. Amazon treats its customers like shit. They sell a lot of shit products from China especially that break immediately and they don't care. They do NOT have a refund policy like the one you claim other people violate, but they will shut down accounts randomly with messages about violating said NONEXISTENT policy, even accounts that haven't had returns. Their algorithms are shit, in other words. You should sue them, seriously, in small claims.