7 ms·

[Redacted for not towing the party line close enough.]

saboot 10y ago
I would think a government run prison would be more amenable to public pressure to reform and change, as opposed to a free market solution.
- 20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
  [independent thought not tolerated on hacker news]
  - karma_vaccum123 10y ago
    > But the justice system has no interest in justice, in my opinion. Then fix it. Private prisons are absolutely not the right solution.
    - Unbeliever69 10y ago
      Our society has no interest in justice, in my opinion.
- dnautics 10y ago
  That's actually not generally true. It seems to me that If the government cares about prison abuse, it's relatively easier to make that a contracting criterion and switch contractors (or ban contractors) than to top-down reform an entire system that is run by the state. I looked for but haven't seen any statistics, but I've heard of horror stories emanating from non-private state-run prisons just as from private prisons.
- agwa 10y ago
  That doesn't help if the public doesn't care, and for decades there was no public pressure to reform any prison, public or private. Now that criminal justice reform is mainstream, private prisons have received a disproportionate amount of public attention, enough for the feds to phase them out. I hope the newfound criminal justice reformers don't declare victory as soon as private prisons are gone. Never forget that over-criminalization and mass incarceration preceded private prisons, not the other way around.
themartorana 10y ago
What's interesting is that despite how terrifying prison is (I once witnessed a man hysterically plead with a judge not to send him to prison) it still doesn't seem to act as much of a deterrent.
- 20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
  It's not meant to be a deterrent to criminals, it's meant to keep regular people in line. It's very effective at that. This is why my suggestion that crimes committed against prisoners should be prosecuted produced such a harsh reaction.
  - drjesusphd 10y ago
    > It's not meant to be a deterrent to criminals This is tautological.
sctb 10y ago
This is like complaining about downvotes, but worse: it destroys the conversation and is not OK on HN. We ask that you comment civilly and substantively, and if you've expressed your views that way and the comment still receives downvotes then you should let it stand so that the conversation can continue. The community will often provide corrective upvotes—even in the midst of disagreement—but this can't happen if you've edited out your comment.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jessaustin 10y ago
s/towing/toeing/
taco_emoji 10y ago
> [Redacted for not towing the party line close enough.] What a delightful non-sequitur. What problem were you trying to fix by scrubbing your words from view?
- 20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
  [ And I've been slow banned. So there was no point in attempting to engage in discussion in the first place.]
  - taco_emoji 10y ago
    You received a couple civil, substantive replies. Are you only interested in civil, substantive replies that agree with you?
    - DanBC 10y ago
      It's hard for new accounts to engage in conversation when they're being flagged and downvoted. that green account hadn't (when I looked) said anything worth downvoting, yet had been downvoted across most of their comments. That's hostile and unwelcoming, and it's not surprising they've reacted as they have.
      - 20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
        Hostile and unwelcoming is a fair characterization. Not all subjects have been that way, but this one turned out to be hot potato and so I tried to withdraw in the only way available on this site, only to have that used as an excuse to attack me (by an apparent moderator no less.)
        tomhoward 10y ago
        There's a reason political topics are discouraged on HackerNews, which is that they too often lead to unedifying discussions like this, in which nobody really learns anything and everyone comes away feeling worse. Remember, the guiding principle behind the content on HN is "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity". I've read through your comment threads to try and understand why you feel this to be a hostile place. Personally, I'm quite sympathetic to Milton Friedman's ideas, along with Hayek and other prominent free marketers, and I know that many others on HN are too. I doubt that many people are downvoting you merely for expressing pro-free-market positions. I can only see a couple of comments of yours that are being downvoted, but because you removed the content I can't tell whether or not that was fair. What I can say is that whilst some people will downvote a comment just because they disagree with it, more people will do so because the commenter conveys a bad attitude, and is contributing to the very hostility of which you're complaining. I can't say if that's the case in this particular instance, but given how quick you're being to claim victimhood status, I think it's possible. Why not look at the positives: your account has been active for just 9 days and you already have over 120 karma points. That doesn't sound too unwelcoming to me. A few downvotes on comments are no big deal; people have all kinds of different reasons for downvoting, and they're nothing to do with you, but rather how you make the voter feel. In the past I've been quite vocal with some personal insights on health/medical topics, which have sometimes attracted some downvotes, I gather because they're a bit far outside the mainstream for some people to be willing to accept. But I don't mind; it forces me to keep researching and challenging my knowledge, and working harder to present my positions in ways that are more persuasive, whilst also accepting that some people will simply never be persuaded, no matter how well I do (which is equally true of certain economics concepts). So please, try not to be too down on the place just because of a few downvotes, and remember that if everyone tries their best to present their ideas in an informative and gracious manner, HN will be an increasingly worthwhile place to discuss interesting and challenging ideas, and we'll all be better off.

I would think a government run prison would be more amenable to public pressure to reform and change, as opposed to a free market solution.

20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
[independent thought not tolerated on hacker news]
- karma_vaccum123 10y ago
  > But the justice system has no interest in justice, in my opinion. Then fix it. Private prisons are absolutely not the right solution.
  - Unbeliever69 10y ago
    Our society has no interest in justice, in my opinion.
dnautics 10y ago
That's actually not generally true. It seems to me that If the government cares about prison abuse, it's relatively easier to make that a contracting criterion and switch contractors (or ban contractors) than to top-down reform an entire system that is run by the state. I looked for but haven't seen any statistics, but I've heard of horror stories emanating from non-private state-run prisons just as from private prisons.
agwa 10y ago
That doesn't help if the public doesn't care, and for decades there was no public pressure to reform any prison, public or private. Now that criminal justice reform is mainstream, private prisons have received a disproportionate amount of public attention, enough for the feds to phase them out. I hope the newfound criminal justice reformers don't declare victory as soon as private prisons are gone. Never forget that over-criminalization and mass incarceration preceded private prisons, not the other way around.

themartorana 10y ago

What's interesting is that despite how terrifying prison is (I once witnessed a man hysterically plead with a judge not to send him to prison) it still doesn't seem to act as much of a deterrent.

20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
It's not meant to be a deterrent to criminals, it's meant to keep regular people in line. It's very effective at that. This is why my suggestion that crimes committed against prisoners should be prosecuted produced such a harsh reaction.
- drjesusphd 10y ago
  > It's not meant to be a deterrent to criminals This is tautological.

sctb 10y ago

This is like complaining about downvotes, but worse: it destroys the conversation and is not OK on HN. We ask that you comment civilly and substantively, and if you've expressed your views that way and the comment still receives downvotes then you should let it stand so that the conversation can continue. The community will often provide corrective upvotes—even in the midst of disagreement—but this can't happen if you've edited out your comment.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jessaustin 10y ago

s/towing/toeing/

taco_emoji 10y ago

> [Redacted for not towing the party line close enough.] What a delightful non-sequitur. What problem were you trying to fix by scrubbing your words from view?

20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
[ And I've been slow banned. So there was no point in attempting to engage in discussion in the first place.]
- taco_emoji 10y ago
  You received a couple civil, substantive replies. Are you only interested in civil, substantive replies that agree with you?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    It's hard for new accounts to engage in conversation when they're being flagged and downvoted. that green account hadn't (when I looked) said anything worth downvoting, yet had been downvoted across most of their comments. That's hostile and unwelcoming, and it's not surprising they've reacted as they have.
    - 20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
      Hostile and unwelcoming is a fair characterization. Not all subjects have been that way, but this one turned out to be hot potato and so I tried to withdraw in the only way available on this site, only to have that used as an excuse to attack me (by an apparent moderator no less.)
      - tomhoward 10y ago
        There's a reason political topics are discouraged on HackerNews, which is that they too often lead to unedifying discussions like this, in which nobody really learns anything and everyone comes away feeling worse. Remember, the guiding principle behind the content on HN is "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity". I've read through your comment threads to try and understand why you feel this to be a hostile place. Personally, I'm quite sympathetic to Milton Friedman's ideas, along with Hayek and other prominent free marketers, and I know that many others on HN are too. I doubt that many people are downvoting you merely for expressing pro-free-market positions. I can only see a couple of comments of yours that are being downvoted, but because you removed the content I can't tell whether or not that was fair. What I can say is that whilst some people will downvote a comment just because they disagree with it, more people will do so because the commenter conveys a bad attitude, and is contributing to the very hostility of which you're complaining. I can't say if that's the case in this particular instance, but given how quick you're being to claim victimhood status, I think it's possible. Why not look at the positives: your account has been active for just 9 days and you already have over 120 karma points. That doesn't sound too unwelcoming to me. A few downvotes on comments are no big deal; people have all kinds of different reasons for downvoting, and they're nothing to do with you, but rather how you make the voter feel. In the past I've been quite vocal with some personal insights on health/medical topics, which have sometimes attracted some downvotes, I gather because they're a bit far outside the mainstream for some people to be willing to accept. But I don't mind; it forces me to keep researching and challenging my knowledge, and working harder to present my positions in ways that are more persuasive, whilst also accepting that some people will simply never be persuaded, no matter how well I do (which is equally true of certain economics concepts). So please, try not to be too down on the place just because of a few downvotes, and remember that if everyone tries their best to present their ideas in an informative and gracious manner, HN will be an increasingly worthwhile place to discuss interesting and challenging ideas, and we'll all be better off.