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I have managed remote employees for years and while I still think it's a good tool in the box for providing a healthy and happy workplace, as well as recruiting

I have managed remote employees for years and while I still think it's a good tool in the box for providing a healthy and happy workplace, as well as recruiting/retaining talent in situations where you couldn't otherwise, I've grown increasingly jaded about the idea of functional, fully-remote organizations. The trust issue referenced in this article is one element but there are many others: - Many people don't handle the level of autonomy well, or don't stay motivated in isolation - Harder to engage a remote employee in company culture and values - There is a big difference between remote in the same time zone/country and remote on the other side of the world - Management invariably has less control over a remote employee and less ability to command their immediate attention I think comparing "remote work" with "not remote work" is a massive oversimplification of the issue that does everyone a disservice. There is the group of remote contractors you've never met, there's the team of fulltime employees that live within a few hours' flight of each other and meet several times a year, there's the guy who works in the office 3 days a week and at home from 2. So what are we really talking about? Generalities are not productive. The dark spectres hovering over the head of remote work are that remote employees often end up being less productive and less available when you really need them. For certain types of work and certain types of people these issues are more or less pronounced... this is not a black and white thing. But I am pretty sure we will never see a future where everyone is a fully remote worker.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
Is the dark truth here that "Coordination is Hard"? I've noticed that when I have worked remotely, that I spent more time anticipating the care and feeding of the management ... interface, where when I'm onsite, I'd just allow normal Brownian motion of humans in the office to take care of it.
cmdrfred 10y ago
Have you given any thought to a "results only" workplace? I have never worked in one but I think I'd thrive in such an environment. Would that solve your concerns about remote work?
- hughperkins 10y ago
  The problem is that, unlike exams and stuff, where lots of effort went into studying how long each question should take a 'typical' person, in actual work, the problem hasn't actually been solved before, at least not by the current team, and no-one really knows how long it would take. There's no obvious theoretical objective way of measuring. So, you can waste two thirds of your time on estimating and negotiating times and pays for little micro-projects (which is doable, though at a huge overhead), or simply work normal hours, and check that everyone is approximately working to the best of their ability. This latter method is by far the easier method, for everyone. I have worked remotely quite a lot, using both methods, and the second method is far more sustainable, in my opinion. (I mean, you just sync your hours with your workmates, and just make sure you're always online in the online chat application; if the company doesnt chat in your absence on online chat, well, it might not be the right company for you; but many do. A lot).
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I wonder why time spent is a concern at all. Lets say you hire me to build you a dashboard for your company. You tell me what data you want where and ask me how long I think it would take. I give you that number and you do wage * time to get at the cost of that stage of the project. From time to time we video chat and I demonstrate what I have thus far. If you feel my work is unacceptable you terminate our relationship. Where does hours worked come into play? In the modern workplace I often feel punished for efficiency and relegated to sitting at a desk twiddling my thumbs for that crime.
    - charlesdm 10y ago
      Become a consultant, and you'll be rewarded for results instead of time spent.
      - Shaanie 10y ago
        That's not necessarily true, though. Consultants often work hourly on contracts, which means that you're typically punished for being efficient as you won't have as many billable hours. This generally means that you're better off being less efficient while still meeting the deadlines/goals. Of course, there's a tradeoff since proving yourself to be more efficient than expected could result in more work etc, but it's not as clear cut as being rewarded for efficiency.
danieltillett 10y ago
I do think you raise a good point which is remote work is not for everyone. Some people need others around them to stay motivated and focused, while for others it is the lack of distractions that makes the difference. The only real problem is that many people don’t know which category they fall into.
- Roboprog 10y ago
  My problem is I do best with a mix of both: I need to engage with real people, both for empathy and info exchange, but I also need time to be apart and just crank stuff out, whether it is code, documentation or training materials.
DHMO 10y ago
> Many people don't handle the level of autonomy well, or don't stay motivated in isolation But just because that is true for a number of people doesn't mean it is true for all. I don't work from home anymore, but, personally, I always felt happiest when working from home. I did have a remote job which sucked, and part of it was because it was remote and I didn't have as much familiarity with the code or the company and part of it was that the job just really sucked. I think though that if you are already familiar with the code, know the people you are working with well, don't have significant problems interpreting what others say via IM/email and need to speak with them in person to get context, and just get a total morale boost when working from home because you are in your own world and can concentrate better, then- please!- work from home!
CSMastermind 10y ago
> Many people don't handle the level of autonomy well, or don't stay motivated in isolation As I've started being 'in charge' of more people this has been the hardest thing for me to adapt to. I've always operated with a high degree of autonomy. Now that I'm in the position of assigning work to other people it's been a shock to me how much handholding most people need to get something done.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  Hence you realise why most companies don't like having remote workers
  - 0xfeba 10y ago
    That's because they are letting people work remote who shouldn't be working remote, either through ignorance or some attempt at "equality".
  - skrebbel 10y ago
    this is the most insightful comment on remote working that i've read on HN
charlesdm 10y ago
> Harder to engage a remote employee in company culture and values I might sound a bit cynical here, but company culture and values (and everything surrounding it) is essentially the glue that sticks the suckers together. Employment is, in the simplest sense, nothing more than an all eggs in one basket business relationship. You can make friends with certain people while employed, but companies (the entities as a whole) have, almost always, zero loyalty towards their employees. How many companies are touting "we're all in this together, guys!" only to turn around and fire 10% of their staff for whatever reason? Also, why would one have to share the values/culture of the company you're employed at, if you're getting the work done professionally + at a high standard? Almost always these "values" are used an excuse to abuse the relationship (i.e. free overtime, "cause we're all doing it!", "can't give you a raise, because no one is making more than $XXX,000 per year at this company!")
- apatters 10y ago
  > companies have, almost always, zero loyalty towards their employees I think this belief is wrong. There are very few successful companies that don't go to great lengths to minimize employee turnover because it's economically beneficial. Hiring and training new staff is almost always more expensive than retaining someone who delivers good performance. For a manager one of the biggest benefits of a person who is a "culture fit" is that they tend to be less likely to quit. Sure people get laid off and fired in the world of business. I have yet to see the mustache-twirling villain who relishes doing this. It's basically the worst part of the job. The relationship between employee and employer is economic. When either party decides it no longer makes economic sense they can end it. No one should get confused about that, and getting engaged in the company's culture and values doesn't have to contradict that. The ideal is that it equates to having some other reasons for sticking around and enjoying yourself while you're there. If you're a good employee then trust me they want you to stick around (many employees, including myself at past points in my career, think they're good employees but they're not). All this abuse stuff you're talking about certainly happens in some places but I don't think it's the typical case.
  - klibertp 10y ago
matwood 10y ago
I have worked remote for years at a time, and managed people remotely. Both situations ended up the most productive periods for everyone involved. The key is a good process. Daily stand ups (video/voice/email), regular communication, and must be available time windows help to keep everyone engaged and accountable. I may be the exception though since I was 'trained' in remote work starting with my very first job out of school. Even though I had to go into an office, many people I worked with were somewhere else in the US. The majority of them I never met in person and mostly either emailed or spoke on the phone. I will say though, the hardest remote work situation to manage is an extreme time difference. Managing people in Asia while living in the US was tough.
- badwolf 10y ago
  Going to have to +1 this. I worked remotely/from home for 6 years, and was extremely productive, and also much less stressed. If I needed to take an hour or two and go to my apartment's pool, then I'd do it... Now I'm back in an office doing 9-5, and everything is a chore. My stress levels are significantly higher than previously, etc... With tools like group video calling, conference calls, email, Slack/chat, etc... It's incredibly easy to stay "close" with your team while being remote.
  - softawre 10y ago
    Right, you are speaking from the employee side though. You seemed to have gloss over the "difficulty getting in touch with someone" and "times when you must be available" part. Depending when you were out at the pool, I can imagine you got a few instant messages from your boss that you didn't reply to.
    - walterstucco 10y ago
      that could happen in the office as well
  - kefka 10y ago
    The tools to work remotely can be nice as you put it... But if you can work remotely from home/desk, so can people who are willing to work for 10% of your salary. In person means "Im on the radar, im there to consider, and there to help". Someone over a chat client doesnt have the same presence. Now, this might/probably change with the advent of AR and VR workspaces.
cema 10y ago
Harder to engage a remote employee in company culture and values You know, I am not sure it is such a bad idea. A diversity of cultures can make the work a better place. Besides, what is the "company culture and values" anyway? I am, frankly, more suspicious than curious.
- fzzzy 10y ago
  This is company culture and values: http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/08/tripping-through-ibms-astonishingly-insane-1937-corporate-songbook/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/08/tripping-through-ibm...
  - Roboprog 10y ago
    Sorry, having one of those "Beavis and Butthead" snicker moments: We don't pretend we're gay. We always feel that way, Because we're filling the world with sunshine. With I.B.M. machines, We've got the finest means, For brightly painting the clouds with sunshine. —from "Painting the Clouds with Sunshine" I believe the proper posture for reciting these is "face down, 9 edge first", but I could be wrong :-)
Touche 10y ago
Yeah, generally speaking most people are not motivated in their jobs and put the minimum effort needed. Many/most people need to be micromanaged. So doing remote where people work the same hours more-or-less lets you haggle people on Slack that aren't getting shit done.
wslh 10y ago
Same experience as an employer. In my experience very few people know how to work remotely, autonomously, and communicate efficiently. So remote working requires a higher than average trust. On the other hand, managers should be conscious about the differences on the work styles. I also think that remote work practices should be taught and we can't assume because you know how to use Slack, GitHub, Google Docs, and Skype you know how to work remotely.
return0 10y ago
Some types of work that are particularly well suited to remote work. It takes away the friction of a workplace, and instead people live with written messages and deadlines. Provided of course that the people taking part are responsible.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago

Is the dark truth here that "Coordination is Hard"? I've noticed that when I have worked remotely, that I spent more time anticipating the care and feeding of the management ... interface, where when I'm onsite, I'd just allow normal Brownian motion of humans in the office to take care of it.

cmdrfred 10y ago

Have you given any thought to a "results only" workplace? I have never worked in one but I think I'd thrive in such an environment. Would that solve your concerns about remote work?

hughperkins 10y ago
The problem is that, unlike exams and stuff, where lots of effort went into studying how long each question should take a 'typical' person, in actual work, the problem hasn't actually been solved before, at least not by the current team, and no-one really knows how long it would take. There's no obvious theoretical objective way of measuring. So, you can waste two thirds of your time on estimating and negotiating times and pays for little micro-projects (which is doable, though at a huge overhead), or simply work normal hours, and check that everyone is approximately working to the best of their ability. This latter method is by far the easier method, for everyone. I have worked remotely quite a lot, using both methods, and the second method is far more sustainable, in my opinion. (I mean, you just sync your hours with your workmates, and just make sure you're always online in the online chat application; if the company doesnt chat in your absence on online chat, well, it might not be the right company for you; but many do. A lot).
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I wonder why time spent is a concern at all. Lets say you hire me to build you a dashboard for your company. You tell me what data you want where and ask me how long I think it would take. I give you that number and you do wage * time to get at the cost of that stage of the project. From time to time we video chat and I demonstrate what I have thus far. If you feel my work is unacceptable you terminate our relationship. Where does hours worked come into play? In the modern workplace I often feel punished for efficiency and relegated to sitting at a desk twiddling my thumbs for that crime.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    Become a consultant, and you'll be rewarded for results instead of time spent.
    - Shaanie 10y ago
      That's not necessarily true, though. Consultants often work hourly on contracts, which means that you're typically punished for being efficient as you won't have as many billable hours. This generally means that you're better off being less efficient while still meeting the deadlines/goals. Of course, there's a tradeoff since proving yourself to be more efficient than expected could result in more work etc, but it's not as clear cut as being rewarded for efficiency.

danieltillett 10y ago

I do think you raise a good point which is remote work is not for everyone. Some people need others around them to stay motivated and focused, while for others it is the lack of distractions that makes the difference. The only real problem is that many people don’t know which category they fall into.

Roboprog 10y ago
My problem is I do best with a mix of both: I need to engage with real people, both for empathy and info exchange, but I also need time to be apart and just crank stuff out, whether it is code, documentation or training materials.

DHMO 10y ago

> Many people don't handle the level of autonomy well, or don't stay motivated in isolation But just because that is true for a number of people doesn't mean it is true for all. I don't work from home anymore, but, personally, I always felt happiest when working from home. I did have a remote job which sucked, and part of it was because it was remote and I didn't have as much familiarity with the code or the company and part of it was that the job just really sucked. I think though that if you are already familiar with the code, know the people you are working with well, don't have significant problems interpreting what others say via IM/email and need to speak with them in person to get context, and just get a total morale boost when working from home because you are in your own world and can concentrate better, then- please!- work from home!

CSMastermind 10y ago

> Many people don't handle the level of autonomy well, or don't stay motivated in isolation As I've started being 'in charge' of more people this has been the hardest thing for me to adapt to. I've always operated with a high degree of autonomy. Now that I'm in the position of assigning work to other people it's been a shock to me how much handholding most people need to get something done.

charlesdm 10y ago
Hence you realise why most companies don't like having remote workers
- 0xfeba 10y ago
  That's because they are letting people work remote who shouldn't be working remote, either through ignorance or some attempt at "equality".
- skrebbel 10y ago
  this is the most insightful comment on remote working that i've read on HN

charlesdm 10y ago

> Harder to engage a remote employee in company culture and values I might sound a bit cynical here, but company culture and values (and everything surrounding it) is essentially the glue that sticks the suckers together. Employment is, in the simplest sense, nothing more than an all eggs in one basket business relationship. You can make friends with certain people while employed, but companies (the entities as a whole) have, almost always, zero loyalty towards their employees. How many companies are touting "we're all in this together, guys!" only to turn around and fire 10% of their staff for whatever reason? Also, why would one have to share the values/culture of the company you're employed at, if you're getting the work done professionally + at a high standard? Almost always these "values" are used an excuse to abuse the relationship (i.e. free overtime, "cause we're all doing it!", "can't give you a raise, because no one is making more than $XXX,000 per year at this company!")

apatters 10y ago
> companies have, almost always, zero loyalty towards their employees I think this belief is wrong. There are very few successful companies that don't go to great lengths to minimize employee turnover because it's economically beneficial. Hiring and training new staff is almost always more expensive than retaining someone who delivers good performance. For a manager one of the biggest benefits of a person who is a "culture fit" is that they tend to be less likely to quit. Sure people get laid off and fired in the world of business. I have yet to see the mustache-twirling villain who relishes doing this. It's basically the worst part of the job. The relationship between employee and employer is economic. When either party decides it no longer makes economic sense they can end it. No one should get confused about that, and getting engaged in the company's culture and values doesn't have to contradict that. The ideal is that it equates to having some other reasons for sticking around and enjoying yourself while you're there. If you're a good employee then trust me they want you to stick around (many employees, including myself at past points in my career, think they're good employees but they're not). All this abuse stuff you're talking about certainly happens in some places but I don't think it's the typical case.
- klibertp 10y ago

matwood 10y ago

I have worked remote for years at a time, and managed people remotely. Both situations ended up the most productive periods for everyone involved. The key is a good process. Daily stand ups (video/voice/email), regular communication, and must be available time windows help to keep everyone engaged and accountable. I may be the exception though since I was 'trained' in remote work starting with my very first job out of school. Even though I had to go into an office, many people I worked with were somewhere else in the US. The majority of them I never met in person and mostly either emailed or spoke on the phone. I will say though, the hardest remote work situation to manage is an extreme time difference. Managing people in Asia while living in the US was tough.

badwolf 10y ago
Going to have to +1 this. I worked remotely/from home for 6 years, and was extremely productive, and also much less stressed. If I needed to take an hour or two and go to my apartment's pool, then I'd do it... Now I'm back in an office doing 9-5, and everything is a chore. My stress levels are significantly higher than previously, etc... With tools like group video calling, conference calls, email, Slack/chat, etc... It's incredibly easy to stay "close" with your team while being remote.
- softawre 10y ago
  Right, you are speaking from the employee side though. You seemed to have gloss over the "difficulty getting in touch with someone" and "times when you must be available" part. Depending when you were out at the pool, I can imagine you got a few instant messages from your boss that you didn't reply to.
  - walterstucco 10y ago
    that could happen in the office as well
- kefka 10y ago
  The tools to work remotely can be nice as you put it... But if you can work remotely from home/desk, so can people who are willing to work for 10% of your salary. In person means "Im on the radar, im there to consider, and there to help". Someone over a chat client doesnt have the same presence. Now, this might/probably change with the advent of AR and VR workspaces.

cema 10y ago

Harder to engage a remote employee in company culture and values You know, I am not sure it is such a bad idea. A diversity of cultures can make the work a better place. Besides, what is the "company culture and values" anyway? I am, frankly, more suspicious than curious.

fzzzy 10y ago
This is company culture and values: http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/08/tripping-through-ibms-astonishingly-insane-1937-corporate-songbook/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/08/tripping-through-ibm...
- Roboprog 10y ago
  Sorry, having one of those "Beavis and Butthead" snicker moments: We don't pretend we're gay. We always feel that way, Because we're filling the world with sunshine. With I.B.M. machines, We've got the finest means, For brightly painting the clouds with sunshine. —from "Painting the Clouds with Sunshine" I believe the proper posture for reciting these is "face down, 9 edge first", but I could be wrong :-)

Touche 10y ago

Yeah, generally speaking most people are not motivated in their jobs and put the minimum effort needed. Many/most people need to be micromanaged. So doing remote where people work the same hours more-or-less lets you haggle people on Slack that aren't getting shit done.

wslh 10y ago

Same experience as an employer. In my experience very few people know how to work remotely, autonomously, and communicate efficiently. So remote working requires a higher than average trust. On the other hand, managers should be conscious about the differences on the work styles. I also think that remote work practices should be taught and we can't assume because you know how to use Slack, GitHub, Google Docs, and Skype you know how to work remotely.

return0 10y ago

Some types of work that are particularly well suited to remote work. It takes away the friction of a workplace, and instead people live with written messages and deadlines. Provided of course that the people taking part are responsible.