7 ms·

Over the past year I've noticed a lot of things mysteriously getting installed, things moving around, etc. I don't mind automatic updates so long as there's a s

Over the past year I've noticed a lot of things mysteriously getting installed, things moving around, etc. I don't mind automatic updates so long as there's a separation from the new features and bug fixes. There should be a base core of apps that are necessary and a set of opt-in add-on features. It's time to move to Linux on laptop/desktop/tablet I think. While I love my surface pro 3 and the Windows 10 experience is overall a good one, I don't like them changing undisclosed stuff on me.

tracker1 10y ago
On the flip side, I run Ubuntu on my htpc, and have for several years now... there have been a couple times where the updates broke audio, and the fix took on average 2 days, though I can imagine some people having worse experiences... Getting an MCE remote (arguably the most common PC remote type) working with Kodi (formerly xbmc and very popular full screen media player) took some cumbersome steps. On average one app breaks every 6 months or so after updating. By comparison, omitting the privacy issues, MS has a much better track record with updates.
- fdgdasfadsf 10y ago
  Both are subpar (and osx or whatever Apple call their offering is no better). I've been stuck in an update hell with windows where security updates simply would not install the only solution I could find was a full re-install. I've been in a similar situation with Ubuntu and was able to fix it - but only because I understood it - otherwise I would have had to do a re-install. The key with Ubuntu updates is to stick to LTS versions and to do a clean re-install (keeping /home as a separate partition makes this painless). Both have rubbish audio systems. Windows breaks on my laptop every few suspend resumes (fixed by restart). Ubuntu every few months (fixed by restart). At this point I'm disappointed by every system I use.
  - tracker1 10y ago
    That reminds me of another one... (Ubuntu htpc) I can "shut-down" and the remote startup works, but if it actually goes into suspend, I have to hit the actual power button in the cabinet. And more often than not the audio is broken on resume from suspend and I have to completely shut down to fix it (reboot doesn't work)... this is with a core i3-5010u, which is a relatively common intel audio chipset. I agree there are aspects of every OS that I don't like... I just wouldn't single out Windows (again other than privacy) as particularly bad on updates... updating my mbp to el capitan took a wipe as the upgrade broke half way through. TIP: Never update when you're tethered to your phone on vacation, always update a week before leaving for vacation by the way. lol
    - AstralStorm 10y ago
      Remote startup and wakeup is actually handled by firmware of your mainboard. (or Intel ME) Ubuntu cannot fix hardware problems most of the time. Drivers still breaking in S3 is often a result of lack of Windows driver workarounds for this case. And Ubuntu using slightly outdated kernel versions.
      - tracker1 10y ago
        Considering it's Intel hardware (nuc), I'm not sure what the point is, since Intel tends to have some of the best Linux support. In any case, shouldn't linux receive a signal that it's recovered from sleep and that should allow it to re-initialize problem hardware/drivers? I keep running it, my point was that it's not exactly rosey with Linux all of the time either.
        pritambaral 10y ago
        I work with hardware devs who work with Intel NUCs professionally (I do software). The NUCs have some really crazy firmware/hardware bugs. In fact, just yesterday I had to suggest to them to get the OS (Linux) to power cycle a hung hardware, and they said "Yeah ... the PMIC doesn't shut off power to that bus, the only way is to shut down the entire system. We asked Intel, that's what they said."
  - rimantas 10y ago
    Interesting that you claim that OS X is not better when you are not even sure about the name…
    - JadeNB 10y ago
      It could be that fdgdasfadsf's point was a sarcastic observation about the upcoming switch of the name from 'Mac OS' [0] to 'macOS'. [0] Or 'OS X', which, technically, is just the tenth version of Mac OS rather than an OS name in its own right (despite what I think is the fact that most people think of it as the latter).
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    OS X 10.11 broke USB support on Macs. USB used to just work. Now it stops working after you connect ten or so devices - which is not a common thing, but not unusual in music studios. And external USB hubs only work if they have a specific generic name in the firmware ID. Apparently if you hack your own kexts you can get it working again, kind of. >At this point I'm disappointed by every system I use. This. The Win 10 situation is beyond horrific. I would never have imagined that MS would set itself up for a class action suit like this. I know people who have had their PCs trashed by this forced upgrade, and they're really not happy about it. But the alternatives are not great. Linux and OS X are both in similar "kind of works, mostly, except when not" states. Consumer OS reliability and design has become an embarrassment for the entire industry.
    - makecheck 10y ago
      At least, as of a few years ago, Apple figured out that incremental updates are not such a bad thing. There is only so much “damage” they can do with an update; and although they do screw up stuff, you can at least figure out what happened. Where do you start though when W10 changes the entire damned UI, replaces a bunch of apps, moves stuff around, creates two versions of some control panels, etc.? That is just a special level of “don’t give a crap” that is embarrassing for any company making billions of dollars.
- sudojudo 10y ago
  I've been running Linux on all of my home machines for many years, including an HTPC, and I've yet to have an update break anything. Should we trust your anecdote, because it has more words, or mine, because it mentions more than one computer?
  - paulddraper 10y ago
    Really? Anything? It's not that I don't believe Linux is that reliable. I use it daily. I don't believe any software is that reliable. Maybe you're not using it?
    - sudojudo 10y ago
      My point was that anecdotes are pretty useless. Some installations run brilliantly, others are a huge pain. After all, we're not talking about a single distro on identical hardware. To answer your questions- Linux is my primary OS, at work and at home. I don't recall every single issue, especially way-back, but traditionally, I create problems by doing something stupid. Maybe I'm just lucky with updates, but I stick to popular distros, and I specifically seek out Linux-friendly hardware. Others surely have a different experience. It just felt like OP was painting with too broad a stroke; their statement was valid in 2003, but not so much these days.
- Osiris 10y ago
  I was running Ubuntu 14.04 on a small PC with XBMC and proprietary Nvidia drivers. The standard `apt-get update` would never rebuild the nvidia drivers so inevitably on reboot, X couldn't start and I had to figure out why, then rebuild the nvidia drivers manually, and try again. I'm much more scared of Ubuntu aptitude updates than I am of Microsoft updates.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    Fixing a broken apt update is easier than fixing a broken Windows update, though.
    - tracker1 10y ago
      Win10 broke safe mode, it can be re-enabled, but still... Reboot into safe more, or via recovery disk... restore the to restore point set before updates, reboot. Most updates in Ubuntu can be recovered from. That doesn't make it better/easier than recovery in Windows... as it depends on what got updated, how it got updated, and what all came with it.
  - brokenmachine 10y ago
    I've had the exact same problem every time with Nvidia drivers when updating ubuntu. Despite this, it's not too hard to fix, and I'm much more scared of forced Microsoft OS updates though. Win7 will be my last Microsoft OS. The way they've been trying to trick people into updating is disgusting.
    - pritambaral 10y ago
      Even Win7 has gotten a lot of privacy killing updates silently.
- makomk 10y ago
  As someone who's had the misfortune of encountering and then tracking down PulseAudio bugs, it probably doesn't help that it's a code quality disaster. Few comments, close coupling between different parts, no stable bugfix-only releases, and even the developers have trouble understanding what size buffers functions should expect.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  I have had the same experience, especially with broken mythtv updates (specifically the mythtv web interface), and also sound. Plus for some reason every time I update I have to manually edit the grub file to boot the correct kernel and run the nvidia installer. I think it's because I'm still on an older version of grub or something. I'm still much happier running ubuntu on my server/htpc than Windows. I'd be ecstatic to use ubuntu exclusively if I didn't need to run Ableton Live on Windows, which I can't run in a Windows VM.
dredmorbius 10y ago
Debian used to be quite good at not stuffing things up. Even on testing/unstable. For the past few months, my laptop pointer controls -- this is PS/2 mouse emulation, folks, what, 20+ years old? -- has broken thanks apparently to libinput. Middle mouse button is only partially functional. Not that I use that ever.... Making increasingly complex things, and failing to keep an eye on the ball, ends up bolluxing stuff. Happens on Microsoft (a lot), OS X (see Walt Mossberg's rant). Android, all the fucking time. And Debian. I'm going back to a fucking sliderule....
- marcosdumay 10y ago
  I've had lots of Debian updates breaking my sound system. And twice when they pushed NetworkManager into the KDE dependencies, and when they pushed idmapd into NFSv4, it broke my network shares. I can't remember anything else breaking on stable. It's been a much experience than updating Windows.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Sound has always been utterly fucked though. Well, more fucked than most shit. (I've actually had suprisingly good experiences with it, though my expectations are also scaled low.) NetworkMangler joins a long list of other FooMangler tools which are best destroyed with extreme prejudice. I manage WiFi with an /etc/network/interfaces stanza, and it mostly works. Static wired interfaces are, of course, vastly simpler. I agree that the Linux experience is hugely better than Windows, and the Debian experience hugely better than RPM-based distros. This is why having the mouse, THE FUCKING MOUSE!!!!!! fail is .... I'm beyond words. That it's been months is the other problem.
- makomk 10y ago
  But libinput is a vital part of the new, improved Wayland future, so obviously it must be better. Because of this development of the existing touchpad driver has even been dropped in favour of it.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
josteink 10y ago
> There should be a base core of apps that are necessary and a set of opt-in add-on features. Microsoft actually offers this. Enterprise customers requires it. Disclaimer: Linux user. Can't check which settings are exactly where.
digi_owl 10y ago
> I don't mind automatic updates so long as there's a separation from the new features and bug fixes. And this is why all manner of devices go unpatched, and another reason why IoT will be a nightmare.

tracker1 10y ago

On the flip side, I run Ubuntu on my htpc, and have for several years now... there have been a couple times where the updates broke audio, and the fix took on average 2 days, though I can imagine some people having worse experiences... Getting an MCE remote (arguably the most common PC remote type) working with Kodi (formerly xbmc and very popular full screen media player) took some cumbersome steps. On average one app breaks every 6 months or so after updating. By comparison, omitting the privacy issues, MS has a much better track record with updates.

fdgdasfadsf 10y ago
Both are subpar (and osx or whatever Apple call their offering is no better). I've been stuck in an update hell with windows where security updates simply would not install the only solution I could find was a full re-install. I've been in a similar situation with Ubuntu and was able to fix it - but only because I understood it - otherwise I would have had to do a re-install. The key with Ubuntu updates is to stick to LTS versions and to do a clean re-install (keeping /home as a separate partition makes this painless). Both have rubbish audio systems. Windows breaks on my laptop every few suspend resumes (fixed by restart). Ubuntu every few months (fixed by restart). At this point I'm disappointed by every system I use.
- tracker1 10y ago
  That reminds me of another one... (Ubuntu htpc) I can "shut-down" and the remote startup works, but if it actually goes into suspend, I have to hit the actual power button in the cabinet. And more often than not the audio is broken on resume from suspend and I have to completely shut down to fix it (reboot doesn't work)... this is with a core i3-5010u, which is a relatively common intel audio chipset. I agree there are aspects of every OS that I don't like... I just wouldn't single out Windows (again other than privacy) as particularly bad on updates... updating my mbp to el capitan took a wipe as the upgrade broke half way through. TIP: Never update when you're tethered to your phone on vacation, always update a week before leaving for vacation by the way. lol
  - AstralStorm 10y ago
    Remote startup and wakeup is actually handled by firmware of your mainboard. (or Intel ME) Ubuntu cannot fix hardware problems most of the time. Drivers still breaking in S3 is often a result of lack of Windows driver workarounds for this case. And Ubuntu using slightly outdated kernel versions.
    - tracker1 10y ago
      Considering it's Intel hardware (nuc), I'm not sure what the point is, since Intel tends to have some of the best Linux support. In any case, shouldn't linux receive a signal that it's recovered from sleep and that should allow it to re-initialize problem hardware/drivers? I keep running it, my point was that it's not exactly rosey with Linux all of the time either.
      - pritambaral 10y ago
        I work with hardware devs who work with Intel NUCs professionally (I do software). The NUCs have some really crazy firmware/hardware bugs. In fact, just yesterday I had to suggest to them to get the OS (Linux) to power cycle a hung hardware, and they said "Yeah ... the PMIC doesn't shut off power to that bus, the only way is to shut down the entire system. We asked Intel, that's what they said."
- rimantas 10y ago
  Interesting that you claim that OS X is not better when you are not even sure about the name…
  - JadeNB 10y ago
    It could be that fdgdasfadsf's point was a sarcastic observation about the upcoming switch of the name from 'Mac OS' [0] to 'macOS'. [0] Or 'OS X', which, technically, is just the tenth version of Mac OS rather than an OS name in its own right (despite what I think is the fact that most people think of it as the latter).
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  OS X 10.11 broke USB support on Macs. USB used to just work. Now it stops working after you connect ten or so devices - which is not a common thing, but not unusual in music studios. And external USB hubs only work if they have a specific generic name in the firmware ID. Apparently if you hack your own kexts you can get it working again, kind of. >At this point I'm disappointed by every system I use. This. The Win 10 situation is beyond horrific. I would never have imagined that MS would set itself up for a class action suit like this. I know people who have had their PCs trashed by this forced upgrade, and they're really not happy about it. But the alternatives are not great. Linux and OS X are both in similar "kind of works, mostly, except when not" states. Consumer OS reliability and design has become an embarrassment for the entire industry.
  - makecheck 10y ago
    At least, as of a few years ago, Apple figured out that incremental updates are not such a bad thing. There is only so much “damage” they can do with an update; and although they do screw up stuff, you can at least figure out what happened. Where do you start though when W10 changes the entire damned UI, replaces a bunch of apps, moves stuff around, creates two versions of some control panels, etc.? That is just a special level of “don’t give a crap” that is embarrassing for any company making billions of dollars.
sudojudo 10y ago
I've been running Linux on all of my home machines for many years, including an HTPC, and I've yet to have an update break anything. Should we trust your anecdote, because it has more words, or mine, because it mentions more than one computer?
- paulddraper 10y ago
  Really? Anything? It's not that I don't believe Linux is that reliable. I use it daily. I don't believe any software is that reliable. Maybe you're not using it?
  - sudojudo 10y ago
    My point was that anecdotes are pretty useless. Some installations run brilliantly, others are a huge pain. After all, we're not talking about a single distro on identical hardware. To answer your questions- Linux is my primary OS, at work and at home. I don't recall every single issue, especially way-back, but traditionally, I create problems by doing something stupid. Maybe I'm just lucky with updates, but I stick to popular distros, and I specifically seek out Linux-friendly hardware. Others surely have a different experience. It just felt like OP was painting with too broad a stroke; their statement was valid in 2003, but not so much these days.
Osiris 10y ago
I was running Ubuntu 14.04 on a small PC with XBMC and proprietary Nvidia drivers. The standard `apt-get update` would never rebuild the nvidia drivers so inevitably on reboot, X couldn't start and I had to figure out why, then rebuild the nvidia drivers manually, and try again. I'm much more scared of Ubuntu aptitude updates than I am of Microsoft updates.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  Fixing a broken apt update is easier than fixing a broken Windows update, though.
  - tracker1 10y ago
    Win10 broke safe mode, it can be re-enabled, but still... Reboot into safe more, or via recovery disk... restore the to restore point set before updates, reboot. Most updates in Ubuntu can be recovered from. That doesn't make it better/easier than recovery in Windows... as it depends on what got updated, how it got updated, and what all came with it.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  I've had the exact same problem every time with Nvidia drivers when updating ubuntu. Despite this, it's not too hard to fix, and I'm much more scared of forced Microsoft OS updates though. Win7 will be my last Microsoft OS. The way they've been trying to trick people into updating is disgusting.
  - pritambaral 10y ago
    Even Win7 has gotten a lot of privacy killing updates silently.
makomk 10y ago
As someone who's had the misfortune of encountering and then tracking down PulseAudio bugs, it probably doesn't help that it's a code quality disaster. Few comments, close coupling between different parts, no stable bugfix-only releases, and even the developers have trouble understanding what size buffers functions should expect.
brokenmachine 10y ago
I have had the same experience, especially with broken mythtv updates (specifically the mythtv web interface), and also sound. Plus for some reason every time I update I have to manually edit the grub file to boot the correct kernel and run the nvidia installer. I think it's because I'm still on an older version of grub or something. I'm still much happier running ubuntu on my server/htpc than Windows. I'd be ecstatic to use ubuntu exclusively if I didn't need to run Ableton Live on Windows, which I can't run in a Windows VM.

dredmorbius 10y ago

Debian used to be quite good at not stuffing things up. Even on testing/unstable. For the past few months, my laptop pointer controls -- this is PS/2 mouse emulation, folks, what, 20+ years old? -- has broken thanks apparently to libinput. Middle mouse button is only partially functional. Not that I use that ever.... Making increasingly complex things, and failing to keep an eye on the ball, ends up bolluxing stuff. Happens on Microsoft (a lot), OS X (see Walt Mossberg's rant). Android, all the fucking time. And Debian. I'm going back to a fucking sliderule....

marcosdumay 10y ago
I've had lots of Debian updates breaking my sound system. And twice when they pushed NetworkManager into the KDE dependencies, and when they pushed idmapd into NFSv4, it broke my network shares. I can't remember anything else breaking on stable. It's been a much experience than updating Windows.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Sound has always been utterly fucked though. Well, more fucked than most shit. (I've actually had suprisingly good experiences with it, though my expectations are also scaled low.) NetworkMangler joins a long list of other FooMangler tools which are best destroyed with extreme prejudice. I manage WiFi with an /etc/network/interfaces stanza, and it mostly works. Static wired interfaces are, of course, vastly simpler. I agree that the Linux experience is hugely better than Windows, and the Debian experience hugely better than RPM-based distros. This is why having the mouse, THE FUCKING MOUSE!!!!!! fail is .... I'm beyond words. That it's been months is the other problem.
makomk 10y ago
But libinput is a vital part of the new, improved Wayland future, so obviously it must be better. Because of this development of the existing touchpad driver has even been dropped in favour of it.
- dredmorbius 10y ago

josteink 10y ago

> There should be a base core of apps that are necessary and a set of opt-in add-on features. Microsoft actually offers this. Enterprise customers requires it. Disclaimer: Linux user. Can't check which settings are exactly where.

digi_owl 10y ago

> I don't mind automatic updates so long as there's a separation from the new features and bug fixes. And this is why all manner of devices go unpatched, and another reason why IoT will be a nightmare.