13 ms·

I upgraded willingly so the deceptive upgrade practices, while deplorable, didn't really affect me. What does affect me is that Microsoft refuses to let me cont

I upgraded willingly so the deceptive upgrade practices, while deplorable, didn't really affect me. What does affect me is that Microsoft refuses to let me control my computer. - If you turn off Windows Defender Real Time Protection it explicitly tells you "You can turn this off, but if it's off for a while we'll turn it back on". It turns itself on upon next reboot, it seems. - You can't turn off Windows Update. It will always end up downloading new updates. - Once an update is scheduled for a restart you can only delay a few times and it will then force the restart. - You can't remove worthless apps like Microsoft Groove and OneDrive integration. - They are continuing to try to weasel the Windows Store into my life by buying up or forcing exclusives (games), with all the drawbacks of UWP. Microsoft, I promise I know what I'm doing and the risks and benefits of each action I want to perform. I own my hardware, I'd like to control the software I licensed. I am well aware of other OS options and I use Linux & OS X often, but neither can compare to the gaming library available on Windows which is my primary use case for my desktop.

dimino 10y ago
Your last few points are annoying for sure, but the first 3 are the result of 20+ years of Microsoft's poor reputation for security due to its prominence and numerous flaws. I completely sympathize with Microsoft's plight here, and while you might not be among those who are constantly infected, the number of people who do end up having problems is so high that they're willing to lose you as a cost of keeping the other folks safe. We're all safer for this, too, because fewer infected computers on the Internet means fewer proxies for spam and other malignant behavior.
- jakebasile 10y ago
  I completely understand why this is the default behavior, but there should be an "I'm not a normie" switch somewhere that allows me to control my experience. The Pro edition was originally that way, but as I understand it this is no longer the case and is similarly controlling.
  - oz 10y ago
    >but there should be an "I'm not a normie" switch somewhere... Which will then summarily be used by malware authors and we're back we started.
    - cwyers 10y ago
      I wish I could upvote this about 30 times. For every real Windows security expert slash power user in the wild, there's about 30 pimple-encrusted besotted teenagers out there who just want to run some warez on their parent's computer and will click whatever setting, run whatever software and make whatever Registry edits are necessary to get the game their parents won't buy them up and running. The typical home user is not a sysadmin, doesn't want to be a sysadmin and will not put in the effort to be a sysadmin. Microsoft is building Windows to be safe for them. This is a net good for all of us. And underneith it all, Windows is still Windows, which puts it miles ahead of its real competitors (Android, iOS and I guess ChromeOS) in terms of allowing users to really own their device.
      - jakebasile 10y ago
        This is all great, but I am not a typical home user and there is no option for me on the Windows Edition Menu. I can buy Home or Pro, that's it. Pro used to be the "I know what I'm doing" version but this is no longer the case. Enterprise let's you do whatever you want but requires far more investment and effort to run just so that I can control my computer. Edit to reply to cwyers below me as I cannot reply further: Do you honestly think that running your own Active Directory system, calling Microsoft Enterprise Sales, arguing with them and probably failing to buy a single Enterprise license, and ultimately buying a pack of Enterprise licenses I do not need is required of me to be "on the same Internet as you"? All I want is close to the level of control I can get on previous versions of Windows which pale in comparison to any Linux distribution. Does this mean that anyone using a Linux distro that doesn't automatically update shouldn't be allowed on your internet? Surely if your computer is always up to date you have nothing to fear? I am unsure how you are equating me to an anti-vaxxer simply because I want to control how and when my computer updates. I don't believe I ever said I do not ever want an update, I want to know what they are and control when they are applied as is standard on every other OS I know of. I am also not making any ideological argument to privacy. In fact, I don't care too awful much about the telemetry in Windows 10. I don't really like it but I almost exclusive use my Windows machine for gaming so there isn't much I'm scared of MS finding out about there. I simply want to control how my computer works.
- CamperBob2 10y ago
  No. The same security patches that are applied to 10 also apply all the way back to 7, and even earlier. To the extent they don't, it's because Microsoft no longer wants them to apply to 7 after the end of its support life. (Which, last I checked, hasn't happened yet.) Do you think they rewrote the whole kernel in 10, or even a big chunk of it?
wvenable 10y ago
> You can't remove worthless apps like Microsoft Groove and OneDrive integration. You can, it's just not super-easy. I've done both. Groove was pretty easy but OneDrive took a few steps. I almost have file explorer configured in a good way for me -- it actually seems much more flexible than previous versions even if half that flexibility is only available in regedit.
- hackernews2000 10y ago
  OneDrive comes back to the File Explorer after each Windows 10 big update, even if you disable its icon with the registry editor. The same happens to the library folders (Videos, Pictures etc.).
  - hendersoon 10y ago
    Yes, many customizations are lost with the "big" updates, including disabling telemetry and cortana as well as tons of settings. That's because they aren't _really_ updates; they are complete OS installs. Your old windows directory is literally renamed to windows.OLD.
    - paulmd 10y ago
      This is my largest complaint with Windows 10. In particular, it resets file associations on every major patch. Supposedly this is because applications are no longer supposed to set associations themselves, the user is supposed to do it individually for a file of each type through the Windows interface, and Win10 is "fixing broken associations". There's a regedit fix here that worked for me. http://www.winhelponline.com/blog/windows-10-resetting-file-associations/ http://www.winhelponline.com/blog/windows-10-resetting-file-...
- IPv5 10y ago
  I wish I could remove the useless apps on my iPhone. I have a folder called "iOS Crap" on every iDevice I use.
- ProAm 10y ago
usrusr 10y ago
> You can't turn off Windows Update. It will always end up downloading new updates. Just an idea, I don't know if it would work: there's a setting where you can tell Windows that you are on a "metered connection", which supposedly makes Windows postpone various background tasks until you tell it that you are ready for bandwidth abuse (which never happens). I doubt that this would influence any connections by third party applications, so it should do little or no harm. The question is, would Windows let itself get fooled so easily?
- Frank2312 10y ago
  If you have a wired connection, there is no toggle for that setting. There is probably a registry value you can change to do so though.
  - graycat 10y ago
    > There is probably a registry value you can change to do so though. Thanks, but with "probably" I sense that I'm about to get into what I call "mud wrestling" or hours or days of just throwing wild guesses against a wall to see if any appear to stick. I've only got 365 days a year, and I've given away far too many of them to such mud wrestling. GOD knows I do NOT want to do more of that. For physical things, say, an alarm clock that won't quit making a noise, often can use a big hammer or an axe to solve the problem. Too often in mud wrestling with sick-o software, I wanted such a hammer or axe. The EFF OP and this thread have me literally just TERRIFIED that my work with Windows will have me spending a huge fraction of my time that I do NOT have mud wrestling with some version of Windows. Again, GOD knows well I do NOT want mud wrestling. To Microsoft: I am trying, desperately trying, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, to the limits of strength of my body, to get my software written for my Web site startup. For my software, I have 80,000 lines of typing for the real-time parts and another 20,000 for the off-line parts. I want, desperately NEED, to do the rest of the work of my startup. NO WAY do I have in addition the time, money, strength, and energy to fight Microsoft software for no good reason. I want NO updates, NO changes, without my well informed, explicit permission. I want NO data sent from my computer elsewhere without my well informed, explicit permission. Cortana or whatever it is called? I wouldn't hit a hog in the butt with all the copies of Cortana on the planet. To me the work and objectives of Cortana are insulting, outrageous, patronizing, demeaning, intrusive, and worse. I don't want it. What do I want from Microsoft? (1) Fix the outrageous security problems Microsoft has been struggling with back at least to XP. (2) Do much better technical writing in technical documentation of Microsoft software. Then I want to finish my startup with no more attention to anything from Microsoft.
ghostly_s 10y ago
Everything you've listed is addressable by enterprise users in an AD environment. I.E., Microsoft's real customers. Using a copy of Windows 10 with no Cortana, Auto-updates, Groove, or Windows Defender right now.
- jeevestobs 10y ago
  Having that choice only be available to 'real' customers, while giving personal users no choice, is bad.
  - ghostly_s 10y ago
    You've misread my comment if you think I'm defending the practice. Merely saying it's a long established standard practice for MS.
- daveguy 10y ago
  Yes. If you want that control, all you have to do is buy a subscription [0]. $7 per month isn't that much to be able to control your own computer is it? That's only $84 per year or $252 every 3 years -- it's practically a discount for buying an upgrade every 3 years! [0] http://www.computerworld.com/article/2867542/microsoft-touts-7-per-user-monthly-pricing-for-windows-subscriptions.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2867542/microsoft-touts...
  - CamperBob2 10y ago
    (Shrug) They'll just change the deal as soon as I sign up, like they always do.
  - _xander 10y ago
    It comes with Office365 too! I'd totally buy this for the added control over home edition, but it looks like Microsoft only sells this license in bulk to big businesses in my region. Then again...it turns out that you can upgrade to enterprise without a valid key [1] and that there are no real penalties for doing this [2]. So, shrug, I guess they don't want my money - and I'm not going to use an OS that turns me into a mineable dataset. [1] http://www.howtogeek.com/250503/how-to-upgrade-to-windows-10-enterprise-without-reinstalling-windows/ http://www.howtogeek.com/250503/how-to-upgrade-to-windows-10... [2] http://www.howtogeek.com/244678/you-dont-need-a-product-key-to-install-and-use-windows-10/ http://www.howtogeek.com/244678/you-dont-need-a-product-key-...
jasonkostempski 10y ago
I see so many people stuck in the gaming situation and there are no practical solutions, the only way out involves an entire industry changing direction together. I'd like to see a video card manufacturer (probably AMD since they seem to be the underdog in a 2 dog fight) start a Linux-first campaign, even if it's only for select cards.
- bitL 10y ago
  I am running SteamOS on Zotac NEN with currently 39 AAA games and frankly barely spend any time on Windows for gaming, and prefer buying games that have announced SteamOS support. I also have Win 7 & Win 10 on that computer just in case I need it for Uplay/Origin stuff or DX12-only (1TB M.2 SSD with 500GB for SteamOS, 250GB for either Win 7 and Win 10 and 2TB HDD for storage). Surprisingly, everything works just fine (I had one complete freeze in the past few months). It can work nicely even in 4K in Tomb Raider, GRID Autosport or Metro, though on lower details. Frankly, I know I can get 25% more fps on Windows, but what difference would it make for me to run GRID at 120fps when it runs on 90fps already? And Linux can only get better so why sticking to Windows?
- speeder 10y ago
  AMD already is making a good open source driver for Linux, and both AMD and nVidia has been making proprietary drivers for Linux for a while. Also AMD seemly releases some "Pro" features for workstation on Linux first. The problem of Linux gaming is not the graphics drivers, in fact this part has been working "ok" for a while now. The problem with Linux gaming is: 1. Audio is still a mess, the fastest audio library still is OSS4 (not 3), that won't ever get in the mainstream distributions (sometimes it is even explicitly banned and will get you banned from forums and irc servers if you ask about it), JACK still is finnicky to work with, PA is still buggy and slow, and ALSA although much better now, is also too slow and has terrible API (while coding for OSS, any version, is very easy). 2. Desktop is still a pain to setup, even the most "GUI-happy" distros still have problems here and there, when I asked some random people about it, I got outright hostile replies, people telling me they deliberately don't want to make Linux easier, because they don't want "dumb people using something they are not worth using", mind you, this wasn't once, or in one community, more than one person shared this view with me. 3. Some people in the community are outright hostile to games, and even sabotage efforts to make games work better, I saw a flamewar where one guy was claiming games were purely dumb entertainment, and that people that played games weren't not only inferior humans, but people that deserved Windows, as punishment. This guy was of the opinion that no GUI server should ever support exclusive fullscreen properly, that instead they should have all features focused on "Work" features always. 4. Lots of other random hardware is a pain to setup on Linux, even things that usually don't cross people minds, for example I couldn't figure how to make Linux properly support my motherboard Super I/O chip, that is even a common one, I even convinced the manufacturer to give me the chip datasheet, but I couldn't even figure to what project I would need to contribute code. (as for what the Super I/O chip does: control the motherboard sensors, fans and power distribution, including voltage values and regulation commands on my motherboard)
LeoPanthera 10y ago
While not defending Microsoft (my first advice would be: don't use Windows), there's a free app called "ShutUp10" that allows you to fix almost everything in your list above.
- r00fus 10y ago
  Jury is still out: http://superuser.com/questions/1038050/does-oo-shutup-10-effectively-turn-off-win10s-telemetry http://superuser.com/questions/1038050/does-oo-shutup-10-eff...
  - rasz_pl 10y ago
    Jury is not out, shutup10 turns off "official' telemetry services. Problem is MS build in telemetry into everything now, explorer, cortana, edge, crypto service or dnscache, _everything_ calls home regularly ~once per hour during ordinary use. Only way to 99.9% block telemetry is to switch blocking all outgoing by default in firewall and whitelist what you use. This still leaves DNS exfiltration route :(
    - r00fus 10y ago
      Did you read the comments where, if you do block the standard ports, the telemetry system in Win10 goes all subversive botnet-like and starts connecting on random ports to random hosts in order to get out of the firewall? Frightening.
      - Senji 10y ago
        Can you please provide a link?
        rasz_pl 10y ago
        I think he talks about W10 ignoring hosts file and calling home using raw IPs if you block usual domains. This still gets blocked with firewall. DNS is a problem tho, I dont know of any dns clients with per application whitelist functionality :( This means every program on the system can make dns queries.
emodendroket 10y ago
> - They are continuing to try to weasel the Windows Store into my life by buying up or forcing exclusives (games), with all the drawbacks of UWP. A neat trick is if you download something from the Windows App store and sign in for the first time without using an MSN account to log into your PC, it will ask you something like "Do you want to use this login with all Microsoft services?" And if you say yes then your login is converted to the MSN account, which you won't realize until you next need to log in.
- cowkingdeluxe 10y ago
  Learned that the hard way on my primary development machine. Have a crazy long randomly generated password for my Microsoft account. Had to reset password on a different machine.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    Haha, yikes. It's also a pain in the ass to change it back once you figure it out.
dbg31415 10y ago
With the latest update... many of my settings for existing features were changed. My desktop background was reset to default, my choice of browser was switched back to Edge, and my taskbar icons were reset... "Oh, cool, I was wondering where I put Edge... now I'm so happy it's back!" Wait, that's not what I said at all. I assume all the privacy settings I tried to change to be in my favor were reset as well, and there's about 8 GB of random "Windows.old" crap cluttering my my SSD. The update took 30 minutes on a modern computer and no less than 3 restarts to get up onto "Anniversary Edition" -- mind you there was very little to no warning it was coming, just "You have an update." I've stood up for Microsoft numerous times with friends, but man... I don't trust them, they don't respect my settings, or my intelligence, and they are treating my hardware like they own it. I'm done with their crap... Made the decision to just deal with Apple's crap now and Ubuntu's crap now. Couldn't tell anyone what the benefits of Windows 10 Anniversary Edition are; so the ROI just isn't there for me in putting up with Microsoft any more.
- tajen 10y ago
  > they are treating my hardware like they own it Next step: In the OEM license, include a provision that the ownership of the hardware is transferred to Microsoft and you're granted a license to plug a screen and use devices.
- hendersoon 10y ago
  Benefits of Win10 AU are: 1) Linux on windows runtime beta (commonly called bash shell, but it's much more) 2) dark theme 3) extensions in the Edge browser 4) Vastly improved stylus support 5) Slightly changed start menu 6) Improved action center, if you use UWP apps
  - Endy 10y ago
    1 is the reason I'll never use Win10. I don't trust Linux, even in a VM. Too many people have access and I am forced to assume it's insecure by default. My assumption will never change. 2 is inconsequential. I can use a "dark theme" in Win7; all I did was disable Aero and set up my desktop the same way I had since Win95. 3 Firefox 4 Okay, good reason. 5 The Win10 (actually, WinVista+) start menu is pointless. 6 In the word of the Spartans: "If".
graycat 10y ago
What is UWP?
- mcgannon2007 10y ago
  Universal Windows Platform. A development platform for making apps that work similarly on regular desktop Windows as well as the touch interfaces of Surface/Windows Phone, etc.
- jakebasile 10y ago
  Universal Windows Platform [1], which has been derided by some prominent game developers [2]. [1]: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/whats-a-uwp https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/wha... [2]: http://www.pcgamer.com/epic-ceo-tim-sweeney-pummels-microsofts-uwp-initiative/ http://www.pcgamer.com/epic-ceo-tim-sweeney-pummels-microsof...
  - supernovae 10y ago
    Derided for no good reason. Why would an app developer NOT embrace a technology that would allow them to write once and run anyware from phone to tablet to desktop to tv and hololens? Most of these people are projecting their perceived issues with the platform, not the reality thereof. Steam still runs great on Windows 10 and Windows 10 is steams largest OS base already. UWP solves a lot of problems with win32.. a lot. It was premature in windows 8 but has matured well with anniversary update. (being sandboxed is probably the best consumer feature ever..)
    - rasz_pl 10y ago
      >write once and run anywhere so you would expect your apps to _play for sure_? Gee I wonder why developers are worried about it.
      - supernovae 10y ago
        wut?
tim333 10y ago
I upgraded willingly, got annoyed by that kind of stuff and downgraded again back to 7 which I'm happy with. There was nothing terrible about 10 it's probably better overall, I just didn't want the weird extras.
malnourish 10y ago
I believe Windows updates have uninstalled both CCleaner and Speccy without my consent.
dredmorbius 10y ago
With a few word substitutions I could use this to describe my experience on Android. Background: highly experience Linux user. On a budget, and move, needed something for basic connectivity. Wanted a larger tablet. 9-10" Nexus devices nowhere to be found in brick-and-mortar stores (and hard to come by online as well). Almost always crippled by pathetically small storage. My Samsung Tab A isn't rootable, flashable, had an absolutely useless userland installed (Termux has helped some with that), and now insists that the tools I've used to try enforcing my will are malware, and won't stop nagging me over this. The default featureset is so pathetically poor that I could neither figure out where disk space was being used, or address moving things elsewhere, necessary for an OS upgrade. Which now fails on account of rooting attempts. I'm pretty fucking pissed at Google, Android, and Samsung at this point. And that's before getting to hardware issues. Offering computers to the public at large is apparently an intractable problem. (There's another set of gripes I could write about OS X. And I just commented on Debian's fucking up 20 year old mouse drivers.)
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  You're trying to root Android to get what you want, and Samsung doesn't want you to do that. Unfortunately there's no better option out there. If you had an iphone you'd have even less control over your phone. I'm in the same boat, I have a Samsung at the moment because the hardware is nice, but I'm pretty dissatisfied with the bloatware and IMO Android in general is getting further and further away from satisfying the power users. The default Gallery app is a UI abomination, and you can't completely replace it with something better (the Camera app will always use the Samsung Gallery App to review photos, there's no way to change it).
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    I'm aware iOS isn't a better option. There's a reason I've not gone that route. I'm absolutely irate at Samsung and Google/Android. Once again, the latter company is absolutely burning up goodwill it's engendered among technical users. I'm keeping my eye on alternatives. There's a Spanish-made Ubuntu phone which might be suitable. Otherwise, a small ultralight notebook could be useful, but from whom? I've run Thinkpads for nearly 20 years, but find current offerings abominable. I don't care for Apple hardware precisely because of keyboards and mouse/trackpad options. Samsung's iron fist over apps is similarly pathological.
CommanderData 10y ago
Seeing more negative news about Win 10 on HN interests me. HN, what I regard, a big developer news site - I wonder if Microsoft cares. I am sure and probably stating the obvious here. Developers are a group Microsoft does care about - devs eventually drives some of the cogs in their grand scheme. Making noise here will get their attention, more than making noise on some consumer forum.
- supernovae 10y ago
  Most of it seems completely misguided if you ask me. I'm no fan of all the tracking stuff, but lets be real. Everyone in here with an iPhone or an Android phone has the same experience yet i don't see them complaining that their iphone/android device updates itself, has tracking info and locks them into stores and such. It only seems unfair when MS does it. I remember the day when people used to be enthusiastic about their computer and saw updates not just as things getting in the way. For example, the recent win10 update for anniversary update. Are people really bitching their finally getting a native browser with extensions that is fast and has gesture/touch capability second to none on the tablet form facter? are people really pissed they're getting linux subsystem with Ubuntu 14.04 built in? are people really pissed that the store experience has improved drastically that the apps you buy work on xbox, pc, phone, tablet and hololens? I don't get it. Groove is awesome. Its updated biweekly now and the developers are on twitter accepting feedback. OneDrive works well.. the nagging of onedrive can be uninstalled by not using the desktop app.. i won't go into every detail, but the experience of windows 10 is only as good as you make it out to be. I think most people are just largely misguided at what MS is trying to achieve and if they honestly don't like it, they don't have to buy it. BTW, the upgrade stuff was pretty hoaky too but again, i for the life of me can't find a reason not to upgrade if the upgrade was offered. It's like having an ios device and swearing to stay on iOS 8 just because or having a linux PC and sticking to debian 6 just because.
  - brokenmachine 10y ago
    >BTW, the upgrade stuff was pretty hoaky Hoaky? I'd go with deceptive, misleading, shady or dishonest instead of hoaky. So you really think it's even in the ballpark of ok to force an update on people? Personally, I don't have a need to update just so my OS is called Win 10 instead of Win 7. Plus I hate the Win 10 interface. I don't need touch enabled interfaces for my desktop OS. There are many reasons why not to upgrade. Compatibility is a major one, unsupported hardware is another. The forced tracking is another. Need I go on? That's enough reasons for me.
205guy 10y ago
I'm in a similar boat. I bought my child a cheap PC, it came with Windows 10, and it took a lot of careful configuration to turn off all the tracking and advertising. Then it kept nagging to update Windows 10 (what we used to call a service pack), never mind that it kept scheduling to do it overnight, would reboot and fail. Finally, I got it to download and install the latest win10, and as noted by others, it was essentially an entire re-install of the OS. But here's where it got nasty: the user data was kept, but all of the privacy settings and default apps were reset. Actually not reset, it made you go through the OS configuration screens where it always suggests the default (share all user and browsing information with MS). The configuration was so full of dark patterns: the default is a single button on the screen, but the non default settings are accessed through an underlined link that is not very descriptive. Or turning off tracking is labeled advanced and opens another window. This was the real scary part to me: if you are not a savvy user and know to turn off these things, Win 10 defaults will track everything you do, including your browsing activity ("to provide suggestions"). These basic privacy settings should not be hiding behind dark patterns.
ryuuchin 10y ago
> If you turn off Windows Defender Real Time Protection it explicitly tells you "You can turn this off, but if it's off for a while we'll turn it back on". It turns itself on upon next reboot, it seems. I don't really see this as a negative but to each his own. You're probably better off just using Windows Defender than some third-party A/V solution anyway since they're all pretty useless. > You can't turn off Windows Update. It will always end up downloading new updates. While this is true prior to the AU where you could at least change it to not automatically check for updates. You would then have to explicitly check for updates but yes it would then automatically download and install them when you did. I believe since the group policy no longer works in RS1 it will wind up always checking for updates now. You can thankfully still disable getting driver updates through Windows Update using registry tweaks. > You can't remove worthless apps like Microsoft Groove and OneDrive integration. No but you can disable/not use them. You can disable OneDrive in the Startup tab of the task manager. > They are continuing to try to weasel the Windows Store into my life by buying up or forcing exclusives (games), with all the drawbacks of UWP. I think they pushed games on UWP too early. After the AU (RS1) I'm not sure if there are any game breaking issues for UWP games anymore other than the fact that they're on the Windows Store if you consider that to be a negative. But there's an obvious solution to this and it's simply to vote with your wallet. Don't like games using the Windows Store? Don't buy them. It's that simple.
rasz_pl 10y ago
this is what you want: http://win10epicfail.proboards.com/thread/100/interested-participating-tweaker-development-test http://win10epicfail.proboards.com/thread/100/interested-par...
ionised 10y ago
There are ways to disable/block or outright remove a lot of the things you list. Only with Pro or Enterprise though and only by performing a series of registry/policy edits, third party tool use and blocking of IP ranges. You should never have to jump through these kind of hoops just to get your own system under control.

dimino 10y ago

Your last few points are annoying for sure, but the first 3 are the result of 20+ years of Microsoft's poor reputation for security due to its prominence and numerous flaws. I completely sympathize with Microsoft's plight here, and while you might not be among those who are constantly infected, the number of people who do end up having problems is so high that they're willing to lose you as a cost of keeping the other folks safe. We're all safer for this, too, because fewer infected computers on the Internet means fewer proxies for spam and other malignant behavior.

jakebasile 10y ago
I completely understand why this is the default behavior, but there should be an "I'm not a normie" switch somewhere that allows me to control my experience. The Pro edition was originally that way, but as I understand it this is no longer the case and is similarly controlling.
- oz 10y ago
  >but there should be an "I'm not a normie" switch somewhere... Which will then summarily be used by malware authors and we're back we started.
  - cwyers 10y ago
    I wish I could upvote this about 30 times. For every real Windows security expert slash power user in the wild, there's about 30 pimple-encrusted besotted teenagers out there who just want to run some warez on their parent's computer and will click whatever setting, run whatever software and make whatever Registry edits are necessary to get the game their parents won't buy them up and running. The typical home user is not a sysadmin, doesn't want to be a sysadmin and will not put in the effort to be a sysadmin. Microsoft is building Windows to be safe for them. This is a net good for all of us. And underneith it all, Windows is still Windows, which puts it miles ahead of its real competitors (Android, iOS and I guess ChromeOS) in terms of allowing users to really own their device.
    - jakebasile 10y ago
      This is all great, but I am not a typical home user and there is no option for me on the Windows Edition Menu. I can buy Home or Pro, that's it. Pro used to be the "I know what I'm doing" version but this is no longer the case. Enterprise let's you do whatever you want but requires far more investment and effort to run just so that I can control my computer. Edit to reply to cwyers below me as I cannot reply further: Do you honestly think that running your own Active Directory system, calling Microsoft Enterprise Sales, arguing with them and probably failing to buy a single Enterprise license, and ultimately buying a pack of Enterprise licenses I do not need is required of me to be "on the same Internet as you"? All I want is close to the level of control I can get on previous versions of Windows which pale in comparison to any Linux distribution. Does this mean that anyone using a Linux distro that doesn't automatically update shouldn't be allowed on your internet? Surely if your computer is always up to date you have nothing to fear? I am unsure how you are equating me to an anti-vaxxer simply because I want to control how and when my computer updates. I don't believe I ever said I do not ever want an update, I want to know what they are and control when they are applied as is standard on every other OS I know of. I am also not making any ideological argument to privacy. In fact, I don't care too awful much about the telemetry in Windows 10. I don't really like it but I almost exclusive use my Windows machine for gaming so there isn't much I'm scared of MS finding out about there. I simply want to control how my computer works.
CamperBob2 10y ago
No. The same security patches that are applied to 10 also apply all the way back to 7, and even earlier. To the extent they don't, it's because Microsoft no longer wants them to apply to 7 after the end of its support life. (Which, last I checked, hasn't happened yet.) Do you think they rewrote the whole kernel in 10, or even a big chunk of it?

wvenable 10y ago

> You can't remove worthless apps like Microsoft Groove and OneDrive integration. You can, it's just not super-easy. I've done both. Groove was pretty easy but OneDrive took a few steps. I almost have file explorer configured in a good way for me -- it actually seems much more flexible than previous versions even if half that flexibility is only available in regedit.

hackernews2000 10y ago
OneDrive comes back to the File Explorer after each Windows 10 big update, even if you disable its icon with the registry editor. The same happens to the library folders (Videos, Pictures etc.).
- hendersoon 10y ago
  Yes, many customizations are lost with the "big" updates, including disabling telemetry and cortana as well as tons of settings. That's because they aren't _really_ updates; they are complete OS installs. Your old windows directory is literally renamed to windows.OLD.
  - paulmd 10y ago
    This is my largest complaint with Windows 10. In particular, it resets file associations on every major patch. Supposedly this is because applications are no longer supposed to set associations themselves, the user is supposed to do it individually for a file of each type through the Windows interface, and Win10 is "fixing broken associations". There's a regedit fix here that worked for me. http://www.winhelponline.com/blog/windows-10-resetting-file-associations/ http://www.winhelponline.com/blog/windows-10-resetting-file-...
IPv5 10y ago
I wish I could remove the useless apps on my iPhone. I have a folder called "iOS Crap" on every iDevice I use.
ProAm 10y ago

usrusr 10y ago

> You can't turn off Windows Update. It will always end up downloading new updates. Just an idea, I don't know if it would work: there's a setting where you can tell Windows that you are on a "metered connection", which supposedly makes Windows postpone various background tasks until you tell it that you are ready for bandwidth abuse (which never happens). I doubt that this would influence any connections by third party applications, so it should do little or no harm. The question is, would Windows let itself get fooled so easily?

Frank2312 10y ago
If you have a wired connection, there is no toggle for that setting. There is probably a registry value you can change to do so though.
- graycat 10y ago
  > There is probably a registry value you can change to do so though. Thanks, but with "probably" I sense that I'm about to get into what I call "mud wrestling" or hours or days of just throwing wild guesses against a wall to see if any appear to stick. I've only got 365 days a year, and I've given away far too many of them to such mud wrestling. GOD knows I do NOT want to do more of that. For physical things, say, an alarm clock that won't quit making a noise, often can use a big hammer or an axe to solve the problem. Too often in mud wrestling with sick-o software, I wanted such a hammer or axe. The EFF OP and this thread have me literally just TERRIFIED that my work with Windows will have me spending a huge fraction of my time that I do NOT have mud wrestling with some version of Windows. Again, GOD knows well I do NOT want mud wrestling. To Microsoft: I am trying, desperately trying, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, to the limits of strength of my body, to get my software written for my Web site startup. For my software, I have 80,000 lines of typing for the real-time parts and another 20,000 for the off-line parts. I want, desperately NEED, to do the rest of the work of my startup. NO WAY do I have in addition the time, money, strength, and energy to fight Microsoft software for no good reason. I want NO updates, NO changes, without my well informed, explicit permission. I want NO data sent from my computer elsewhere without my well informed, explicit permission. Cortana or whatever it is called? I wouldn't hit a hog in the butt with all the copies of Cortana on the planet. To me the work and objectives of Cortana are insulting, outrageous, patronizing, demeaning, intrusive, and worse. I don't want it. What do I want from Microsoft? (1) Fix the outrageous security problems Microsoft has been struggling with back at least to XP. (2) Do much better technical writing in technical documentation of Microsoft software. Then I want to finish my startup with no more attention to anything from Microsoft.

ghostly_s 10y ago

Everything you've listed is addressable by enterprise users in an AD environment. I.E., Microsoft's real customers. Using a copy of Windows 10 with no Cortana, Auto-updates, Groove, or Windows Defender right now.

jeevestobs 10y ago
Having that choice only be available to 'real' customers, while giving personal users no choice, is bad.
- ghostly_s 10y ago
  You've misread my comment if you think I'm defending the practice. Merely saying it's a long established standard practice for MS.
daveguy 10y ago
Yes. If you want that control, all you have to do is buy a subscription [0]. $7 per month isn't that much to be able to control your own computer is it? That's only $84 per year or $252 every 3 years -- it's practically a discount for buying an upgrade every 3 years! [0] http://www.computerworld.com/article/2867542/microsoft-touts-7-per-user-monthly-pricing-for-windows-subscriptions.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2867542/microsoft-touts...
- CamperBob2 10y ago
  (Shrug) They'll just change the deal as soon as I sign up, like they always do.
- _xander 10y ago
  It comes with Office365 too! I'd totally buy this for the added control over home edition, but it looks like Microsoft only sells this license in bulk to big businesses in my region. Then again...it turns out that you can upgrade to enterprise without a valid key [1] and that there are no real penalties for doing this [2]. So, shrug, I guess they don't want my money - and I'm not going to use an OS that turns me into a mineable dataset. [1] http://www.howtogeek.com/250503/how-to-upgrade-to-windows-10-enterprise-without-reinstalling-windows/ http://www.howtogeek.com/250503/how-to-upgrade-to-windows-10... [2] http://www.howtogeek.com/244678/you-dont-need-a-product-key-to-install-and-use-windows-10/ http://www.howtogeek.com/244678/you-dont-need-a-product-key-...

jasonkostempski 10y ago

I see so many people stuck in the gaming situation and there are no practical solutions, the only way out involves an entire industry changing direction together. I'd like to see a video card manufacturer (probably AMD since they seem to be the underdog in a 2 dog fight) start a Linux-first campaign, even if it's only for select cards.

bitL 10y ago
I am running SteamOS on Zotac NEN with currently 39 AAA games and frankly barely spend any time on Windows for gaming, and prefer buying games that have announced SteamOS support. I also have Win 7 & Win 10 on that computer just in case I need it for Uplay/Origin stuff or DX12-only (1TB M.2 SSD with 500GB for SteamOS, 250GB for either Win 7 and Win 10 and 2TB HDD for storage). Surprisingly, everything works just fine (I had one complete freeze in the past few months). It can work nicely even in 4K in Tomb Raider, GRID Autosport or Metro, though on lower details. Frankly, I know I can get 25% more fps on Windows, but what difference would it make for me to run GRID at 120fps when it runs on 90fps already? And Linux can only get better so why sticking to Windows?
speeder 10y ago
AMD already is making a good open source driver for Linux, and both AMD and nVidia has been making proprietary drivers for Linux for a while. Also AMD seemly releases some "Pro" features for workstation on Linux first. The problem of Linux gaming is not the graphics drivers, in fact this part has been working "ok" for a while now. The problem with Linux gaming is: 1. Audio is still a mess, the fastest audio library still is OSS4 (not 3), that won't ever get in the mainstream distributions (sometimes it is even explicitly banned and will get you banned from forums and irc servers if you ask about it), JACK still is finnicky to work with, PA is still buggy and slow, and ALSA although much better now, is also too slow and has terrible API (while coding for OSS, any version, is very easy). 2. Desktop is still a pain to setup, even the most "GUI-happy" distros still have problems here and there, when I asked some random people about it, I got outright hostile replies, people telling me they deliberately don't want to make Linux easier, because they don't want "dumb people using something they are not worth using", mind you, this wasn't once, or in one community, more than one person shared this view with me. 3. Some people in the community are outright hostile to games, and even sabotage efforts to make games work better, I saw a flamewar where one guy was claiming games were purely dumb entertainment, and that people that played games weren't not only inferior humans, but people that deserved Windows, as punishment. This guy was of the opinion that no GUI server should ever support exclusive fullscreen properly, that instead they should have all features focused on "Work" features always. 4. Lots of other random hardware is a pain to setup on Linux, even things that usually don't cross people minds, for example I couldn't figure how to make Linux properly support my motherboard Super I/O chip, that is even a common one, I even convinced the manufacturer to give me the chip datasheet, but I couldn't even figure to what project I would need to contribute code. (as for what the Super I/O chip does: control the motherboard sensors, fans and power distribution, including voltage values and regulation commands on my motherboard)

LeoPanthera 10y ago

While not defending Microsoft (my first advice would be: don't use Windows), there's a free app called "ShutUp10" that allows you to fix almost everything in your list above.

r00fus 10y ago
Jury is still out: http://superuser.com/questions/1038050/does-oo-shutup-10-effectively-turn-off-win10s-telemetry http://superuser.com/questions/1038050/does-oo-shutup-10-eff...
- rasz_pl 10y ago
  Jury is not out, shutup10 turns off "official' telemetry services. Problem is MS build in telemetry into everything now, explorer, cortana, edge, crypto service or dnscache, _everything_ calls home regularly ~once per hour during ordinary use. Only way to 99.9% block telemetry is to switch blocking all outgoing by default in firewall and whitelist what you use. This still leaves DNS exfiltration route :(
  - r00fus 10y ago
    Did you read the comments where, if you do block the standard ports, the telemetry system in Win10 goes all subversive botnet-like and starts connecting on random ports to random hosts in order to get out of the firewall? Frightening.
    - Senji 10y ago
      Can you please provide a link?
      - rasz_pl 10y ago
        I think he talks about W10 ignoring hosts file and calling home using raw IPs if you block usual domains. This still gets blocked with firewall. DNS is a problem tho, I dont know of any dns clients with per application whitelist functionality :( This means every program on the system can make dns queries.

emodendroket 10y ago

> - They are continuing to try to weasel the Windows Store into my life by buying up or forcing exclusives (games), with all the drawbacks of UWP. A neat trick is if you download something from the Windows App store and sign in for the first time without using an MSN account to log into your PC, it will ask you something like "Do you want to use this login with all Microsoft services?" And if you say yes then your login is converted to the MSN account, which you won't realize until you next need to log in.

cowkingdeluxe 10y ago
Learned that the hard way on my primary development machine. Have a crazy long randomly generated password for my Microsoft account. Had to reset password on a different machine.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  Haha, yikes. It's also a pain in the ass to change it back once you figure it out.

dbg31415 10y ago

With the latest update... many of my settings for existing features were changed. My desktop background was reset to default, my choice of browser was switched back to Edge, and my taskbar icons were reset... "Oh, cool, I was wondering where I put Edge... now I'm so happy it's back!" Wait, that's not what I said at all. I assume all the privacy settings I tried to change to be in my favor were reset as well, and there's about 8 GB of random "Windows.old" crap cluttering my my SSD. The update took 30 minutes on a modern computer and no less than 3 restarts to get up onto "Anniversary Edition" -- mind you there was very little to no warning it was coming, just "You have an update." I've stood up for Microsoft numerous times with friends, but man... I don't trust them, they don't respect my settings, or my intelligence, and they are treating my hardware like they own it. I'm done with their crap... Made the decision to just deal with Apple's crap now and Ubuntu's crap now. Couldn't tell anyone what the benefits of Windows 10 Anniversary Edition are; so the ROI just isn't there for me in putting up with Microsoft any more.

tajen 10y ago
> they are treating my hardware like they own it Next step: In the OEM license, include a provision that the ownership of the hardware is transferred to Microsoft and you're granted a license to plug a screen and use devices.
hendersoon 10y ago
Benefits of Win10 AU are: 1) Linux on windows runtime beta (commonly called bash shell, but it's much more) 2) dark theme 3) extensions in the Edge browser 4) Vastly improved stylus support 5) Slightly changed start menu 6) Improved action center, if you use UWP apps
- Endy 10y ago
  1 is the reason I'll never use Win10. I don't trust Linux, even in a VM. Too many people have access and I am forced to assume it's insecure by default. My assumption will never change. 2 is inconsequential. I can use a "dark theme" in Win7; all I did was disable Aero and set up my desktop the same way I had since Win95. 3 Firefox 4 Okay, good reason. 5 The Win10 (actually, WinVista+) start menu is pointless. 6 In the word of the Spartans: "If".

graycat 10y ago

What is UWP?

mcgannon2007 10y ago
Universal Windows Platform. A development platform for making apps that work similarly on regular desktop Windows as well as the touch interfaces of Surface/Windows Phone, etc.
jakebasile 10y ago
Universal Windows Platform [1], which has been derided by some prominent game developers [2]. [1]: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/whats-a-uwp https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/wha... [2]: http://www.pcgamer.com/epic-ceo-tim-sweeney-pummels-microsofts-uwp-initiative/ http://www.pcgamer.com/epic-ceo-tim-sweeney-pummels-microsof...
- supernovae 10y ago
  Derided for no good reason. Why would an app developer NOT embrace a technology that would allow them to write once and run anyware from phone to tablet to desktop to tv and hololens? Most of these people are projecting their perceived issues with the platform, not the reality thereof. Steam still runs great on Windows 10 and Windows 10 is steams largest OS base already. UWP solves a lot of problems with win32.. a lot. It was premature in windows 8 but has matured well with anniversary update. (being sandboxed is probably the best consumer feature ever..)
  - rasz_pl 10y ago
    >write once and run anywhere so you would expect your apps to _play for sure_? Gee I wonder why developers are worried about it.
    - supernovae 10y ago
      wut?

tim333 10y ago

I upgraded willingly, got annoyed by that kind of stuff and downgraded again back to 7 which I'm happy with. There was nothing terrible about 10 it's probably better overall, I just didn't want the weird extras.

malnourish 10y ago

I believe Windows updates have uninstalled both CCleaner and Speccy without my consent.

dredmorbius 10y ago

With a few word substitutions I could use this to describe my experience on Android. Background: highly experience Linux user. On a budget, and move, needed something for basic connectivity. Wanted a larger tablet. 9-10" Nexus devices nowhere to be found in brick-and-mortar stores (and hard to come by online as well). Almost always crippled by pathetically small storage. My Samsung Tab A isn't rootable, flashable, had an absolutely useless userland installed (Termux has helped some with that), and now insists that the tools I've used to try enforcing my will are malware, and won't stop nagging me over this. The default featureset is so pathetically poor that I could neither figure out where disk space was being used, or address moving things elsewhere, necessary for an OS upgrade. Which now fails on account of rooting attempts. I'm pretty fucking pissed at Google, Android, and Samsung at this point. And that's before getting to hardware issues. Offering computers to the public at large is apparently an intractable problem. (There's another set of gripes I could write about OS X. And I just commented on Debian's fucking up 20 year old mouse drivers.)

brokenmachine 10y ago
You're trying to root Android to get what you want, and Samsung doesn't want you to do that. Unfortunately there's no better option out there. If you had an iphone you'd have even less control over your phone. I'm in the same boat, I have a Samsung at the moment because the hardware is nice, but I'm pretty dissatisfied with the bloatware and IMO Android in general is getting further and further away from satisfying the power users. The default Gallery app is a UI abomination, and you can't completely replace it with something better (the Camera app will always use the Samsung Gallery App to review photos, there's no way to change it).
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  I'm aware iOS isn't a better option. There's a reason I've not gone that route. I'm absolutely irate at Samsung and Google/Android. Once again, the latter company is absolutely burning up goodwill it's engendered among technical users. I'm keeping my eye on alternatives. There's a Spanish-made Ubuntu phone which might be suitable. Otherwise, a small ultralight notebook could be useful, but from whom? I've run Thinkpads for nearly 20 years, but find current offerings abominable. I don't care for Apple hardware precisely because of keyboards and mouse/trackpad options. Samsung's iron fist over apps is similarly pathological.

CommanderData 10y ago

Seeing more negative news about Win 10 on HN interests me. HN, what I regard, a big developer news site - I wonder if Microsoft cares. I am sure and probably stating the obvious here. Developers are a group Microsoft does care about - devs eventually drives some of the cogs in their grand scheme. Making noise here will get their attention, more than making noise on some consumer forum.

supernovae 10y ago
Most of it seems completely misguided if you ask me. I'm no fan of all the tracking stuff, but lets be real. Everyone in here with an iPhone or an Android phone has the same experience yet i don't see them complaining that their iphone/android device updates itself, has tracking info and locks them into stores and such. It only seems unfair when MS does it. I remember the day when people used to be enthusiastic about their computer and saw updates not just as things getting in the way. For example, the recent win10 update for anniversary update. Are people really bitching their finally getting a native browser with extensions that is fast and has gesture/touch capability second to none on the tablet form facter? are people really pissed they're getting linux subsystem with Ubuntu 14.04 built in? are people really pissed that the store experience has improved drastically that the apps you buy work on xbox, pc, phone, tablet and hololens? I don't get it. Groove is awesome. Its updated biweekly now and the developers are on twitter accepting feedback. OneDrive works well.. the nagging of onedrive can be uninstalled by not using the desktop app.. i won't go into every detail, but the experience of windows 10 is only as good as you make it out to be. I think most people are just largely misguided at what MS is trying to achieve and if they honestly don't like it, they don't have to buy it. BTW, the upgrade stuff was pretty hoaky too but again, i for the life of me can't find a reason not to upgrade if the upgrade was offered. It's like having an ios device and swearing to stay on iOS 8 just because or having a linux PC and sticking to debian 6 just because.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  >BTW, the upgrade stuff was pretty hoaky Hoaky? I'd go with deceptive, misleading, shady or dishonest instead of hoaky. So you really think it's even in the ballpark of ok to force an update on people? Personally, I don't have a need to update just so my OS is called Win 10 instead of Win 7. Plus I hate the Win 10 interface. I don't need touch enabled interfaces for my desktop OS. There are many reasons why not to upgrade. Compatibility is a major one, unsupported hardware is another. The forced tracking is another. Need I go on? That's enough reasons for me.

205guy 10y ago

I'm in a similar boat. I bought my child a cheap PC, it came with Windows 10, and it took a lot of careful configuration to turn off all the tracking and advertising. Then it kept nagging to update Windows 10 (what we used to call a service pack), never mind that it kept scheduling to do it overnight, would reboot and fail. Finally, I got it to download and install the latest win10, and as noted by others, it was essentially an entire re-install of the OS. But here's where it got nasty: the user data was kept, but all of the privacy settings and default apps were reset. Actually not reset, it made you go through the OS configuration screens where it always suggests the default (share all user and browsing information with MS). The configuration was so full of dark patterns: the default is a single button on the screen, but the non default settings are accessed through an underlined link that is not very descriptive. Or turning off tracking is labeled advanced and opens another window. This was the real scary part to me: if you are not a savvy user and know to turn off these things, Win 10 defaults will track everything you do, including your browsing activity ("to provide suggestions"). These basic privacy settings should not be hiding behind dark patterns.

ryuuchin 10y ago

> If you turn off Windows Defender Real Time Protection it explicitly tells you "You can turn this off, but if it's off for a while we'll turn it back on". It turns itself on upon next reboot, it seems. I don't really see this as a negative but to each his own. You're probably better off just using Windows Defender than some third-party A/V solution anyway since they're all pretty useless. > You can't turn off Windows Update. It will always end up downloading new updates. While this is true prior to the AU where you could at least change it to not automatically check for updates. You would then have to explicitly check for updates but yes it would then automatically download and install them when you did. I believe since the group policy no longer works in RS1 it will wind up always checking for updates now. You can thankfully still disable getting driver updates through Windows Update using registry tweaks. > You can't remove worthless apps like Microsoft Groove and OneDrive integration. No but you can disable/not use them. You can disable OneDrive in the Startup tab of the task manager. > They are continuing to try to weasel the Windows Store into my life by buying up or forcing exclusives (games), with all the drawbacks of UWP. I think they pushed games on UWP too early. After the AU (RS1) I'm not sure if there are any game breaking issues for UWP games anymore other than the fact that they're on the Windows Store if you consider that to be a negative. But there's an obvious solution to this and it's simply to vote with your wallet. Don't like games using the Windows Store? Don't buy them. It's that simple.

rasz_pl 10y ago

this is what you want: http://win10epicfail.proboards.com/thread/100/interested-participating-tweaker-development-test http://win10epicfail.proboards.com/thread/100/interested-par...

ionised 10y ago

There are ways to disable/block or outright remove a lot of the things you list. Only with Pro or Enterprise though and only by performing a series of registry/policy edits, third party tool use and blocking of IP ranges. You should never have to jump through these kind of hoops just to get your own system under control.