16 ms·

What Great Listeners Actually Do

521 points by wallflower 10y ago

eridius 10y ago
I had a manager once who would say "mmm-hmm" all the time. It was really distracting and actually made it seem like he wasn't listening at all, even if he was actually hanging on my every word.
- TenOhms 10y ago
  I have a manager now who spews out information like a water main and instead of natural pauses, they make weird sounds like 'uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh and another thing'. They are also extremely hard to interrupt so if there's something they said that needs clarification, it's a pain in the ass to get clarification because they're still speaking at my second attempt to ask a question before diving deeper into the rabbit hole. Ah new managers.
  - logicallee 10y ago
    Is spewing out information like a water main a heavy, dense stream of information or a just a stream of verbiage (could cut out 90%)?
- kaybe 10y ago
  Some Japanese carry their listening habits over to English when they learn it as a second language. This involves a lot of these noises and small words like 'amazing', 'wow' etc even if the topic is mundane. I've been told they consider that polite, but in English it's quite irritating.
  - eridius 10y ago
    Huh, that's kind of interesting, although in this case the person in question was about as white as you can be.
- Nilzor 10y ago
  mhm
caminante 10y ago
Nothing but vague insights that shouldn't be surprising, IMHO.
- nether 10y ago
  mhm
DarkTree 10y ago
Honestly, it seems as if the article is just bending the definition of listening. It appears their idea of "the best listener" is the person who engages you the most in conversation. Sure, that person might be a more valuable person to talk to, but I fail to see why that has to be the definition of a great listener.
- woodandsteel 10y ago
  No, it is not arbitrarily changing the definition. They did a study where they asked people to identify how good others were at listening, and then studied what behaviors distinguished those who got the highest ratings.
  - daveevad 10y ago
    That doesn't necessarily identify good listening skills, which perhaps was OP's intent.
  - cellularmitosis 10y ago
    The article is freely interchanging the concepts "being a good listener" and "being perceived as being a good listener" from one sentence to the next. That's worse than arbitrarily changing the definition (but being consistent with it).
    - johnfn 10y ago
      I don't understand there to be any difference between the two. There's no objective judge of listening. There's only the other person, and how well they feel heard.
      - morgante 10y ago
        There can definitely be separate concepts. Someone could be perceived as a good listener because they put on a good show of listening and even ask questions in real time—but when you ask them about the conversation afterwards, they might have very little understanding of what was actually discussed. Likewise, someone could be listening intently while doing a very poor performance of listening.
_Adam 10y ago
Well yeah. If remaining silent was considered "good listening" then people would talk to walls.
gsmethells 10y ago
Politeness + Insight + Empathy. It's easy as PIE!
- dwaltrip 10y ago
  That is a great acronym. I'm going to hold onto that, thanks!
  - gsmethells 10y ago
    You're welcome.
  - anbotero 10y ago
    I agree. So simple, so awesome. Well thought.
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  But it seems PIE was a very difficult language. Proto-Indo-European had nine noun cases, three genders, and no regular verbs at all.
woodandsteel 10y ago
As someone who has taught and researched listening skills, I found this article very insightful. However, let me add that the simple skills they described at the beginning (not interrupting, saying "um-hum," and being able to repeat back), are still good to teach because they are better than what most people do much of the time. Here's another HN link on listening: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12228062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12228062
- Xcelerate 10y ago
  > simple skills [...] are still good to teach because they are better than what most people do much of the time. Heck, merely not pulling your phone out is better than what most people do most of the time.
  - inopinatus 10y ago
    Corollary: conspicuously putting your <distraction interface> away is a clear physical cue that you are now paying attention.
    - iqisracist 10y ago
      not really...
- Bahamut 10y ago
  I despise the tactic of repeating back what other people said - it shows me that the other person isn't really dwelling on what I said, or more often in my experience, are using that to distort what I am saying in order to fit a particular agenda. I rather someone not fake listening in that case and wasting everyone's time.
  - meric 10y ago
    I do the repeating thing when I'm in danger of zoning out. I repeat their words, and then try to rephrase it. It signals to the other person to give me a second or two to come back into the conversation.
neom 10y ago
In my experience building organizations that have totaled over 275 humans: it's a rare, rare person that can truly distinguish hearing from listening. The key to being a good listener is simple: always, to the absolute best of your cognition, meet the speaker in their place.
- solipsism 10y ago
  You should come up with a better "key" -- one which doesn't require expansion. Wtf is meeting someone in their place?
  - z3t4 10y ago
    Like putting yourself in his shoes ... Imagine what it would be to be in his position, considering his background (important). And sympathize (feel his emotions).
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    Putting yourself in their shoes? Being able to sympathize with their goals and desires?
hamhamed 10y ago
This is why I come to HN..to find articles like this. This defies what you learn at school, because I have been taught numerous times, to nod and stfu when you're holding a convo. Always interrupt if you have something constructive to say in a casual/business conversation (unless you're in a debate), that's how you gain trust and credibility.
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  This depends on the person talking. In work situations I have dealt with some (rare) people who will just talk over you if you try to politely insert a suggestion or a question. Very occasionally, the right response is to interrupt them impolitely. Much more often the best thing is to let them finish. It's an almost passive-aggressive solution, but sometimes it's the best you can do.
  - hamhamed 10y ago
    Of course, too much of anything is bad. At the end of the day to be a good listener, you need to listen.
- taneq 10y ago
  I distinguish 'interject' (ie. to quickly add in your two bits' worth and then allow the speaker to resume) from 'interrupt' (ie. to talk over them and keep talking, often on a different topic).
  - Practicality 10y ago
    Yes, the social difference is tremendous. Few people mind if you interject. But if you truly interrupt you're just sidetracking the conversation, that doesn't really help.
  - ulucs 10y ago
    I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as listening, is in fact, listening/interjecting, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, listening plus interjecting. Listening is not a favorable method unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning talking system made useful by the functional eardrums, wave properties of matter and the composition of the atmosphere comprising a full conversation as defined by the societal standards. (you can ban me now. I won't regret this)
GuiA 10y ago
"People’s appraisal of their listening ability is much like their assessment of their driving skills, in that the great bulk of adults think they’re above average." Well, the vast majority of people are actually above average drivers. If you got into 0 accidents over the past year, then you are doing better than average. (Similarly, most people have more legs than the average human)
- spicyj 10y ago
  Most people also think they're a better-than-median driver.
- Chinjut 10y ago
  Depends on what sort of average. We might consider medians instead (with some way to make sense of these against the general backdrop of a non-continuous distribution).
- dwaltrip 10y ago
  There are many factors other than the number of accidents that also contribute to driving skill. Now, if some holistic measure was also skewed in a similar fashion, you would still be correct. But that would require further analysis to demonstrate.
- cellularmitosis 10y ago
  Sorry, I'm a little slow today. Can you elaborate on that last statement? Are you invoking a trick meaning to the word "average"?
  - ajdlinux 10y ago
    The average number of legs per human, worldwide, is slightly under 2. However, the vast majority of people have 2 legs.
  - rfrey 10y ago
    Since some people have one leg, and some have none, but nobody has three legs, the average number of legs is slightly less than two.
GuiA 10y ago
"People’s appraisal of their listening ability is much like their assessment of their driving skills, in that the great bulk of adults think they’re above average." Well, the vast majority of people are actually above average drivers. If you got into 0 accidents over the past year, then you are doing better than average. (Similarly, most people have more legs than the average human)
hoodoof 10y ago
My ex partner always said I didn't listen to her. I really want to be a better listener. It seems to me that the key to listening is to actually be present and not half thinking about something else or what YOU want to say. Hard to do. >> thus, if you’ve been criticized (for example) for offering solutions rather than listening, guilty
- groby_b 10y ago
  >>> thus, if you’ve been criticized (for example) for offering solutions rather than listening, >guilty This is not necessarily a question of "guilty". There are two major directions a conversation can go - "sympathy" or "solution". If your partner wants one, and you give the other, you operate under wrong premises due to an unstated assumption. On both sides. (If your "guilty" was a request for sympathy, I'm currently failing majorly. :) You could do worse than ask people what they want out of a conversation when you start the conversation.
  - PakG1 10y ago
    This is crucial. I've found that when I talk especially with people who reside more on the emotional side of the spectrum (I myself seem to be more on the logical side of the spectrum), I need to really clarify before the conversation gets too deep that I'm good at expressing solutions, but I'm not so good at expressing sympathy/empathy. I'm good at having sympathy (not always empathy), but I'm not good at expressing it. People who contact me frequently to talk about something have come to understand this, and they just trust that I am being sympathetic, even if I am not showing all the signs. But for people who are not used to talking with me, they can sometimes find me unsettling and get upset at me. If someone could explain to me how to appear sincerely sympathetic in a way that makes sense to me, I'd love it. But nobody's ever been able to do that in a way that doesn't make me feel like I'd be pretending, which is awkward and weird, because it's not like I'm not sincerely sympathetic in my heart of hearts.
    - aidenn0 10y ago
      I'm also not naturally good at it, and the best I've come up with is that it's basically letting them know (in a way that is natural for you) that you believe that a world in which they have this problem is worse than a world in which they don't have this problem. In fact just switching my default response to someone presenting a problem to: "that sucks" showed a marked improvement in interpersonal relationships for me.
AdieuToLogic 10y ago
One of the easiest metrics I've found to determine whether or not oneself is a good/great listener is to honestly assess: Am I busy thinking about what I'm going to say when I get a chance? The more the answer is "yes" the less listening a person is performing.
- thirdsun 10y ago
  I don't think that's a very good metric. In fact easily coming up with follow up questions that already come to one's mind while listening is a strong indicator for an engaging conversation. Or did you mean "being busy" as struggling to come up with anything worthwhile to say? Then I'd agree.
  - AdieuToLogic 10y ago
    Assessment does not have to happen real-time. The intent is to reflect on interactions at a later point to determine if one is actively listening. In fact easily coming up with follow up questions that already come to one's mind while listening is a strong indicator for an engaging conversation. I completely agree that formulating follow-up questions are a key indicator of active listening. The key point with the metric I presented is when that formulation transpires. If it is while another is speaking, then the listener is not engaged in listening due to considering their own response instead. IMHO, it's natural to make a "mental note" regarding a thought/topic while another is speaking and then present a considered response/question subsequently.
- personlurking 10y ago
  It's tough to not think about what you want to say/add when the conversation is engaging. That is, "your thoughts, when told to me, made me have my own thoughts about the subject which, hopefully when I tell you, will make you think as well." There are moments where I stop myself from interjecting during a quick pause, and rather politely wait for a long pause to add my viewpoint only for the conversation to have altered course to the point that I'd have to backtrack on a topic no one is talking about anymore. Something that is especially difficult to do when it's a group conversation. To disengage the impulse to attempt to further/enrich the conversation has got to be a learned behavior, in my view. This type of debate raises the question of what kind of conversation is best. Is just being listened to better than having a thoroughly-engaging convo? Depends on the person and the moment.
pizza 10y ago
The computational complexity varieties of listening: Let n be the number of things the other is talking about (tricky to define a "thing" but, whatever?, use a consistent thing metric) - O(1) listening: ignoring/may as well not be there - reading your phone while the other talks to you - O(n) listening: loading their information into your brain while they talk - e.g. repeating back to them, nodding to salient points - O(n log n) listening: sorting the information they've talked about - talking about the most important bits (after hearing everything) - O(n^2) listening: cross-comparing all the things they've said for informational pairings - O(|V|_n + |E|_n + |V|_m + |E|_m) listening: suppose your thoughts are laid out in network form, |V|_x and |E|_x are the # vertices and edges for person x. You are m. Then this is breadth-first search on both your idea-networks. etc. Thoughts? edit: I wonder how P and NP come into this! For instance, if someone asks you a question that takes P work, you should be able to derive the answer from what you've talked about alone. But if someone asks you something like, "Were you at that party 25 years ago?" and you have since forgotten, but then your other friend produces a photograph of you in a pair of silly glasses and a clown afro, you can verify quickly that you were! The hardness of remembering something might be classifiable by computational class?
- solipsism 10y ago
  The brain is massively parallel, your analysis seems to assume 0 parallelism.
  - pizza 10y ago
    True; but one way I can get around this is that the strategies don't all require the same underlying brain architecture requirements. For instance number 1 doesn't even require a brain. Other than that, doesn't my analysis, concerning only the order of steps that must occur in aggregate per algorithm, sorta work out regardless of parallelism? Or do you mean that a multi-state computational brain could do a collection of moves simultaneously, say a vector of n linear actions as 1 brain vector-action?
    - aidenn0 10y ago
z3t4 10y ago
What I find hardest about listening is not to solve problems ... It's not about the nail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
andrewvijay 10y ago
yess!!! finally I can show some valid points to long time nonsensical guys! :D Its about time.
marmot777 10y ago
I totally agree with this: "Good listening is much more than being silent while the other person talks. To the contrary, people perceive the best listeners to be those who periodically ask questions that promote discovery and insight."
dredmorbius 10y ago
Listening, and the mode of listening, depends very much on the mode of conversation. If the case is someone issuing orders, particularly in a critical situation, then yes, you want people to follow attentively, acknowledge the statements, and recall them, correctly, as they apply them. If you're having a casual conversation with friends, you're looking to, generally, build rapport and mutual cohesion. It's active listening (or more, mutual conversation), but the focus is often lacking -- things can wander. If you're hashing through (or reviewing) ideas with someone, or a small group, then the highly focused form of interactive participation described is appropriate. Where it's successful -- where people have sufficiently common experience to follow the discussion, but sufficiently divergent to be able to suggest productive directions, and the participants are engaged and committed to supporting the conversation rather than scoring points, torpedoing it, or bolstering some ideology, then that conversational magic can happen. I suspect an Anna Karenina principle is at play -- good conversations are all good in the same (or at least strongly similar) ways. Bad conversations are each bad in their own way. I've had the experience of the mistaken interrupter -- the person who tries to finish your thoughts ... but is always wrong (there's a YouTube video of this I saw recently, it's very much as infuriating in real life as the video makes out). I've known people who cannot follow a conversation at all -- it's somewhat like leading a small child along, and prodding them. Not only do you have to point them in the right direction every few feet, but they're wandering off in some utterly incorrect (and inexplicable) direction when you don't do so. In one case, this seems related to an inability to form a correct model of what's happening in other people's minds (or having any idea that such a model might be useful). There's lack of familiarity with material, there's prior beliefs and knowledge which aren't correct. There's inability to draw connections or inferences (often accompanied by anger or frustration when prompted or coached to try doing so). Fascinating things, minds.
huuu 10y ago
Good listeners are also well rested. I'm a good listener, but not at the moment. After long days of programming and some lack of sleep I notice that my listening is going down. I really dislike this because I think now I'm faking to be a good listener. As for a lot of things: rest and sleep is important.
AnthonyNagid 10y ago
One of my favorite listeners is the pianist Chick Corea. Sure he can dazzle when the spotlight is on him but the support he provides as an accompanist is also top notch. Interestingly his listening skills as a jazz pianist are evident in his speech. In the same way that he helps his colleagues on the band stand to realize their visions in the moment he also seems to help channel the ideas of the people he talks with. There is an interview he did with John Mayer that I think illustrates this well. IMO Corea is a better listener than Mayer where as Mayer seems to be more involved with his own thoughts. http://chickcoreamusicworkshops.com/podcast/04-john-mayer/ http://chickcoreamusicworkshops.com/podcast/04-john-mayer/
hclivess 10y ago
Idiotic -.- "In fact, much management advice on listening suggests doing these very things – encouraging listeners to remain quiet, nod and “mm-hmm” encouragingly, and then repeat back"
MrBlue 10y ago
I've closed many a sale by simply just listening.
wibr 10y ago
"[...] other subtle body language signals. It is estimated that 80% of what we communicate comes from these signals." Sounded strange to me, so here's some background: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-words/201109/is-nonverbal-communication-numbers-game https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-words/201109/is-...
vermooten 10y ago
The article misses something important. It presents 'being a good listener' as a way of tricking the other person into giving up information. OTOH a REALLY good listener is genuinely interested in what the other person has to say. It's not a mind-game or a piece of oneupmanship: you have to actually give shit because this is a human being talking, not just an 'FTE'.
bakhy 10y ago
interesting research. i wasn't really that surprised by what they say about suggestions - i always thought the problem with giving suggestions is not in suggestions per se, but rather in the way they are given. people often suggest solutions in a condescending way that sounds like they're saying "your problems are so easy, here's the solution". or, the phrase "why don't you just...". it's of course really easy to be objective about things that have nothing to do with you personally. but when someone really listens well, i think they will empathize more, respect the other person's feelings, and this will be felt in their suggestions.
ptype 10y ago
Most people prefer talking to listening, so just asking a few question can get most conversations going. It's not unusual to hear someone say "we had such a great chat" when really that person did most of the talking. A trick that is used by many introverts, with great success.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  "With great success" for the introvert. The person doing the talking didn't really gain anything. And also when this happens to me I actually don't enjoy it. Propping up one sided conversations sucks, and I doubt that nearly as many people enjoy it as you're assuming.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > The person doing the talking didn't really gain anything. That's not necessarily so. If you just sit there like a lemon while somebody makes words at you, then, sure, they're not likely to get a lot out of it, except perhaps slightly improved buccal muscle tone. You have it within your power to produce a more valuable result.
  - Practicality 10y ago
    You're making the same mistake as the person you are criticizing: Assuming that most people feel the same way you do about speaking vs listening. As always, it depends on what the person needs. It seems like you are a person who needs others to answer back and you feel like you are "giving" and the other is "taking" if you are talking and they aren't. Many feel the opposite. Listening is giving and talking is taking. For a lot of people talking is much easier than listening. You just say whatever comes into your head. Neither of you are more correct. Personally, I hate it when either person monologues. Both people talking is preferred. But that is just a preference.
MidnightRaver 10y ago
They retrieve weekly contracts from the Night Mother diligently.
golergka 10y ago
Doesn't level 6 sound like therapy, basically?
cammil 10y ago
My take on listening: https://letmeexplainyou.wordpress.com/2016/08/17/how-to-listen-well/ https://letmeexplainyou.wordpress.com/2016/08/17/how-to-list... TL;DR / Summary: Listening is innate Listening is not an active skill. Practicing it as such diminishes your ability to truly listen. Listening is improved through improving your own peace of mind One’s peace of mind is improved by doing good things. E.g. completing chores, being nice to people, doing things that reduce your regrets / guilt, etc. DO NOT follow much of the incorrect advice given around active listening and traits of a good listener. Listening is a special case of all using any sense, and the above advice applies similarly
- throwanem 10y ago
  I mean, I hear where you're coming from and I'm not going to say you're wrong, but this is like saying that endurance training is unnecessary because humans are innately able to run marathons.
  - cammil 10y ago
    I think metaphors and analogies are difficult to argue with. Of course I am saying something which is hopefully falsifiable otherwise I am not really saying anything at all. The best way to test this is some kind of controlled experiment. But aint nobody got time for that. I would say however, there is absolutely no need to take my word for it. I would actually recommend you don't. You can test this out for yourself. I would certainly recommend that. After all, it's more about what works for you.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      > it's more about what works for you No. It's about what works for the person to whom I'm listening, and my experience suggests at best an extremely limited role for a personal zen, however well polished.
      - cammil 10y ago
        Well then our experiences differ. That's okay. Of course your experience is your evidence. And that is what I mean by "what works for you".
hysan 10y ago
So great listeners do what great teachers often do. Especially when teaching one-on-one or in discussions.
mlvljr 10y ago
I will tell you what they do - they do freakin care, that's it!
kijin 10y ago
The six levels suggested in the article could also serve as a guide for speakers. If you're trying to convey important information and the listener just doesn't seem to get it, ask yourself whether you are expecting them to engage in a higher, more demanding level of listening than they are currently able to. For example, the article says that 80% of what most people try to communicate occur at Level 4: body language. But if you can convey at least some of that information verbally, you'll be able to achieve similar results even if the listener is only at Level 3. This is especially useful if the listener is on the other side of a phone call or an internet forum.
mikmoila 10y ago
"Good listening invariably included some feedback provided in a way others would accept and that opened up alternative paths to consider." This might be related to why group brainstorming doesn't result in good ideas as often we think: https://hbr.org/2015/03/why-group-brainstorming-is-a-waste-of-time https://hbr.org/2015/03/why-group-brainstorming-is-a-waste-o...
namaemuta 10y ago
After almost a year volunteering in 7cups.com as a listener, I can't agree more with the article. When you show genuine interest for what other people are telling you, they will talk openly for hours and will leave the conversation feeling way better than they started it.
- altendo 10y ago
  Totally agree with you. I've been volunteering at a crisis center and active listening is so vital to what we do.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > almost a year volunteering in 7cups.com as a listener How have you found it? I've thought about doing that myself from time to time, and I would value anything you'd like to share about your experience there.
  - namaemuta 10y ago
    In general is a very rewarding experience and in 7cups.com it's also very comfortable to do it (I don't have experience in other similar services so I can't talk about them). You don't have any pressure on when or how many times you should do it and how much time you should spend. You volunteer whenever you feel up to (and this is how it should be because your mood is very important when you are dealing with these things). People's problems can variate from light ones to very complex ones so it's very important to have the adequate mindset, keeping in mind what you are doing there (offering support by listening) and where are your limits. If not, the frustration can overcome you. It's not free of trolls but I have rarely found them there and the majority of the people is very grateful just for boosting up their mood, which gives you a good feeling after finishing a conversation :)
    - throwanem 10y ago
      This is exactly the sort of answer I was hoping for; on the strength of it, I think I may very well decide to give it a try. Thank you very much! I really appreciate you taking the time.
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losteverything 10y ago
Listening is a journey. Now I seek conversation with people usually unaccustomed to being listened to. To give my trust as they give theirs, a conversation can be a beautiful joyous thing.
ysavir 10y ago
It's almost like the word "listening" is being used instead of the more appropriate word "supporting". Can we just stop using the word "listening", which was never appropriate for this context, instead of debating/evaluating its meaning?
haddr 10y ago
Side note: the hbr.org website is taking over 30% of the screen by showing this thick upper gray bar, which the only function is to show you how far you've already read. What a waste of space & UI.
simbalion 10y ago
You can't "perform" good listening skills. Listening to people is about caring what they are saying. This article appears to be written by people who are not capable or interested in caring about what other people are saying. They techniques they described are phony. Good listeners are never phony.
overcast 10y ago
Are there any excellent books on this topic?
- chairleader 10y ago
  I'll throw out Marshall Rosenberg's "Nonviolent Communication." Call it one framework for listening centered around resolving conflict between individuals and groups. It provides examples of the kind of active listening and questioning mentioned in the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication#Four_components https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication#Four_... https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Marshall-Rosenberg/dp/1892005034 https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Mar...
  - overcast 10y ago
    That's a good starting point, thank you!
  - woodandsteel 10y ago
    That's a great book.
elderdnyx 10y ago
Great Listeners always use empathy.
cmarschner 10y ago
Years ago I found habit 5 of Steven Coveys "7 Habits of highly effective people" a great ("idiot's") guide to listening. That book is often reduced to habit "first things first", but said chapter was much more life changing for me. Also to be applied when raising kids (Covey should have known, he and his wife had 9 of them).
CurtMonash 10y ago
A huge fraction of what I do for a living is as a consultant or an interviewer. So I had better be an effective and in particular high-bandwidth listener. 1. I absolutely provide feedback about what I think I heard. One common technique is versions of "I think I understood you to say X, Y and Z. But I have question A, and whatever you said that sounded vaguely like B flew totally over my head." That kind of thing boosts my understanding in a hurry. And the other party usually seems to appreciate it. 2. It's a cliche' in consulting that whatever question the client asks isn't the question they should be asking, or the most important one that's on their mind. So you have to get somehow from the stated question to the real one. In some consulting relationships, that can take days or weeks, and you'll still have done a great job. But in others you need to do it pretty much on the spot, in the same part of the same conversation that the question was originally asked. 3. If you feel you interrupted too much, then stop and invite the person to repeat themselves uninterrupted. I believe that I am usually forgiven when I do that.

521 points by wallflower 10y ago

I had a manager once who would say "mmm-hmm" all the time. It was really distracting and actually made it seem like he wasn't listening at all, even if he was actually hanging on my every word.

TenOhms 10y ago
I have a manager now who spews out information like a water main and instead of natural pauses, they make weird sounds like 'uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh and another thing'. They are also extremely hard to interrupt so if there's something they said that needs clarification, it's a pain in the ass to get clarification because they're still speaking at my second attempt to ask a question before diving deeper into the rabbit hole. Ah new managers.
- logicallee 10y ago
  Is spewing out information like a water main a heavy, dense stream of information or a just a stream of verbiage (could cut out 90%)?
kaybe 10y ago
Some Japanese carry their listening habits over to English when they learn it as a second language. This involves a lot of these noises and small words like 'amazing', 'wow' etc even if the topic is mundane. I've been told they consider that polite, but in English it's quite irritating.
- eridius 10y ago
  Huh, that's kind of interesting, although in this case the person in question was about as white as you can be.
Nilzor 10y ago
mhm

caminante 10y ago

Nothing but vague insights that shouldn't be surprising, IMHO.

nether 10y ago
mhm

DarkTree 10y ago

Honestly, it seems as if the article is just bending the definition of listening. It appears their idea of "the best listener" is the person who engages you the most in conversation. Sure, that person might be a more valuable person to talk to, but I fail to see why that has to be the definition of a great listener.

woodandsteel 10y ago
No, it is not arbitrarily changing the definition. They did a study where they asked people to identify how good others were at listening, and then studied what behaviors distinguished those who got the highest ratings.
- daveevad 10y ago
  That doesn't necessarily identify good listening skills, which perhaps was OP's intent.
- cellularmitosis 10y ago
  The article is freely interchanging the concepts "being a good listener" and "being perceived as being a good listener" from one sentence to the next. That's worse than arbitrarily changing the definition (but being consistent with it).
  - johnfn 10y ago
    I don't understand there to be any difference between the two. There's no objective judge of listening. There's only the other person, and how well they feel heard.
    - morgante 10y ago
      There can definitely be separate concepts. Someone could be perceived as a good listener because they put on a good show of listening and even ask questions in real time—but when you ask them about the conversation afterwards, they might have very little understanding of what was actually discussed. Likewise, someone could be listening intently while doing a very poor performance of listening.

_Adam 10y ago

Well yeah. If remaining silent was considered "good listening" then people would talk to walls.

gsmethells 10y ago

Politeness + Insight + Empathy. It's easy as PIE!

dwaltrip 10y ago
That is a great acronym. I'm going to hold onto that, thanks!
- gsmethells 10y ago
  You're welcome.
- anbotero 10y ago
  I agree. So simple, so awesome. Well thought.
adrianratnapala 10y ago
But it seems PIE was a very difficult language. Proto-Indo-European had nine noun cases, three genders, and no regular verbs at all.

woodandsteel 10y ago

As someone who has taught and researched listening skills, I found this article very insightful. However, let me add that the simple skills they described at the beginning (not interrupting, saying "um-hum," and being able to repeat back), are still good to teach because they are better than what most people do much of the time. Here's another HN link on listening: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12228062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12228062

Xcelerate 10y ago
> simple skills [...] are still good to teach because they are better than what most people do much of the time. Heck, merely not pulling your phone out is better than what most people do most of the time.
- inopinatus 10y ago
  Corollary: conspicuously putting your <distraction interface> away is a clear physical cue that you are now paying attention.
  - iqisracist 10y ago
    not really...
Bahamut 10y ago
I despise the tactic of repeating back what other people said - it shows me that the other person isn't really dwelling on what I said, or more often in my experience, are using that to distort what I am saying in order to fit a particular agenda. I rather someone not fake listening in that case and wasting everyone's time.
- meric 10y ago
  I do the repeating thing when I'm in danger of zoning out. I repeat their words, and then try to rephrase it. It signals to the other person to give me a second or two to come back into the conversation.

neom 10y ago

In my experience building organizations that have totaled over 275 humans: it's a rare, rare person that can truly distinguish hearing from listening. The key to being a good listener is simple: always, to the absolute best of your cognition, meet the speaker in their place.

solipsism 10y ago
You should come up with a better "key" -- one which doesn't require expansion. Wtf is meeting someone in their place?
- z3t4 10y ago
  Like putting yourself in his shoes ... Imagine what it would be to be in his position, considering his background (important). And sympathize (feel his emotions).
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  Putting yourself in their shoes? Being able to sympathize with their goals and desires?

hamhamed 10y ago

This is why I come to HN..to find articles like this. This defies what you learn at school, because I have been taught numerous times, to nod and stfu when you're holding a convo. Always interrupt if you have something constructive to say in a casual/business conversation (unless you're in a debate), that's how you gain trust and credibility.

adrianratnapala 10y ago
This depends on the person talking. In work situations I have dealt with some (rare) people who will just talk over you if you try to politely insert a suggestion or a question. Very occasionally, the right response is to interrupt them impolitely. Much more often the best thing is to let them finish. It's an almost passive-aggressive solution, but sometimes it's the best you can do.
- hamhamed 10y ago
  Of course, too much of anything is bad. At the end of the day to be a good listener, you need to listen.
taneq 10y ago
I distinguish 'interject' (ie. to quickly add in your two bits' worth and then allow the speaker to resume) from 'interrupt' (ie. to talk over them and keep talking, often on a different topic).
- Practicality 10y ago
  Yes, the social difference is tremendous. Few people mind if you interject. But if you truly interrupt you're just sidetracking the conversation, that doesn't really help.
- ulucs 10y ago
  I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as listening, is in fact, listening/interjecting, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, listening plus interjecting. Listening is not a favorable method unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning talking system made useful by the functional eardrums, wave properties of matter and the composition of the atmosphere comprising a full conversation as defined by the societal standards. (you can ban me now. I won't regret this)

GuiA 10y ago

"People’s appraisal of their listening ability is much like their assessment of their driving skills, in that the great bulk of adults think they’re above average." Well, the vast majority of people are actually above average drivers. If you got into 0 accidents over the past year, then you are doing better than average. (Similarly, most people have more legs than the average human)

spicyj 10y ago
Most people also think they're a better-than-median driver.
Chinjut 10y ago
Depends on what sort of average. We might consider medians instead (with some way to make sense of these against the general backdrop of a non-continuous distribution).
dwaltrip 10y ago
There are many factors other than the number of accidents that also contribute to driving skill. Now, if some holistic measure was also skewed in a similar fashion, you would still be correct. But that would require further analysis to demonstrate.
cellularmitosis 10y ago
Sorry, I'm a little slow today. Can you elaborate on that last statement? Are you invoking a trick meaning to the word "average"?
- ajdlinux 10y ago
  The average number of legs per human, worldwide, is slightly under 2. However, the vast majority of people have 2 legs.
- rfrey 10y ago
  Since some people have one leg, and some have none, but nobody has three legs, the average number of legs is slightly less than two.

GuiA 10y ago

hoodoof 10y ago

My ex partner always said I didn't listen to her. I really want to be a better listener. It seems to me that the key to listening is to actually be present and not half thinking about something else or what YOU want to say. Hard to do. >> thus, if you’ve been criticized (for example) for offering solutions rather than listening, guilty

groby_b 10y ago
>>> thus, if you’ve been criticized (for example) for offering solutions rather than listening, >guilty This is not necessarily a question of "guilty". There are two major directions a conversation can go - "sympathy" or "solution". If your partner wants one, and you give the other, you operate under wrong premises due to an unstated assumption. On both sides. (If your "guilty" was a request for sympathy, I'm currently failing majorly. :) You could do worse than ask people what they want out of a conversation when you start the conversation.
- PakG1 10y ago
  This is crucial. I've found that when I talk especially with people who reside more on the emotional side of the spectrum (I myself seem to be more on the logical side of the spectrum), I need to really clarify before the conversation gets too deep that I'm good at expressing solutions, but I'm not so good at expressing sympathy/empathy. I'm good at having sympathy (not always empathy), but I'm not good at expressing it. People who contact me frequently to talk about something have come to understand this, and they just trust that I am being sympathetic, even if I am not showing all the signs. But for people who are not used to talking with me, they can sometimes find me unsettling and get upset at me. If someone could explain to me how to appear sincerely sympathetic in a way that makes sense to me, I'd love it. But nobody's ever been able to do that in a way that doesn't make me feel like I'd be pretending, which is awkward and weird, because it's not like I'm not sincerely sympathetic in my heart of hearts.
  - aidenn0 10y ago
    I'm also not naturally good at it, and the best I've come up with is that it's basically letting them know (in a way that is natural for you) that you believe that a world in which they have this problem is worse than a world in which they don't have this problem. In fact just switching my default response to someone presenting a problem to: "that sucks" showed a marked improvement in interpersonal relationships for me.

AdieuToLogic 10y ago

One of the easiest metrics I've found to determine whether or not oneself is a good/great listener is to honestly assess: Am I busy thinking about what I'm going to say when I get a chance? The more the answer is "yes" the less listening a person is performing.

thirdsun 10y ago
I don't think that's a very good metric. In fact easily coming up with follow up questions that already come to one's mind while listening is a strong indicator for an engaging conversation. Or did you mean "being busy" as struggling to come up with anything worthwhile to say? Then I'd agree.
- AdieuToLogic 10y ago
  Assessment does not have to happen real-time. The intent is to reflect on interactions at a later point to determine if one is actively listening. In fact easily coming up with follow up questions that already come to one's mind while listening is a strong indicator for an engaging conversation. I completely agree that formulating follow-up questions are a key indicator of active listening. The key point with the metric I presented is when that formulation transpires. If it is while another is speaking, then the listener is not engaged in listening due to considering their own response instead. IMHO, it's natural to make a "mental note" regarding a thought/topic while another is speaking and then present a considered response/question subsequently.
personlurking 10y ago
It's tough to not think about what you want to say/add when the conversation is engaging. That is, "your thoughts, when told to me, made me have my own thoughts about the subject which, hopefully when I tell you, will make you think as well." There are moments where I stop myself from interjecting during a quick pause, and rather politely wait for a long pause to add my viewpoint only for the conversation to have altered course to the point that I'd have to backtrack on a topic no one is talking about anymore. Something that is especially difficult to do when it's a group conversation. To disengage the impulse to attempt to further/enrich the conversation has got to be a learned behavior, in my view. This type of debate raises the question of what kind of conversation is best. Is just being listened to better than having a thoroughly-engaging convo? Depends on the person and the moment.

pizza 10y ago

The computational complexity varieties of listening: Let n be the number of things the other is talking about (tricky to define a "thing" but, whatever?, use a consistent thing metric) - O(1) listening: ignoring/may as well not be there - reading your phone while the other talks to you - O(n) listening: loading their information into your brain while they talk - e.g. repeating back to them, nodding to salient points - O(n log n) listening: sorting the information they've talked about - talking about the most important bits (after hearing everything) - O(n^2) listening: cross-comparing all the things they've said for informational pairings - O(|V|_n + |E|_n + |V|_m + |E|_m) listening: suppose your thoughts are laid out in network form, |V|_x and |E|_x are the # vertices and edges for person x. You are m. Then this is breadth-first search on both your idea-networks. etc. Thoughts? edit: I wonder how P and NP come into this! For instance, if someone asks you a question that takes P work, you should be able to derive the answer from what you've talked about alone. But if someone asks you something like, "Were you at that party 25 years ago?" and you have since forgotten, but then your other friend produces a photograph of you in a pair of silly glasses and a clown afro, you can verify quickly that you were! The hardness of remembering something might be classifiable by computational class?

solipsism 10y ago
The brain is massively parallel, your analysis seems to assume 0 parallelism.
- pizza 10y ago
  True; but one way I can get around this is that the strategies don't all require the same underlying brain architecture requirements. For instance number 1 doesn't even require a brain. Other than that, doesn't my analysis, concerning only the order of steps that must occur in aggregate per algorithm, sorta work out regardless of parallelism? Or do you mean that a multi-state computational brain could do a collection of moves simultaneously, say a vector of n linear actions as 1 brain vector-action?
  - aidenn0 10y ago

z3t4 10y ago

What I find hardest about listening is not to solve problems ... It's not about the nail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

andrewvijay 10y ago

yess!!! finally I can show some valid points to long time nonsensical guys! :D Its about time.

marmot777 10y ago

I totally agree with this: "Good listening is much more than being silent while the other person talks. To the contrary, people perceive the best listeners to be those who periodically ask questions that promote discovery and insight."

dredmorbius 10y ago

Listening, and the mode of listening, depends very much on the mode of conversation. If the case is someone issuing orders, particularly in a critical situation, then yes, you want people to follow attentively, acknowledge the statements, and recall them, correctly, as they apply them. If you're having a casual conversation with friends, you're looking to, generally, build rapport and mutual cohesion. It's active listening (or more, mutual conversation), but the focus is often lacking -- things can wander. If you're hashing through (or reviewing) ideas with someone, or a small group, then the highly focused form of interactive participation described is appropriate. Where it's successful -- where people have sufficiently common experience to follow the discussion, but sufficiently divergent to be able to suggest productive directions, and the participants are engaged and committed to supporting the conversation rather than scoring points, torpedoing it, or bolstering some ideology, then that conversational magic can happen. I suspect an Anna Karenina principle is at play -- good conversations are all good in the same (or at least strongly similar) ways. Bad conversations are each bad in their own way. I've had the experience of the mistaken interrupter -- the person who tries to finish your thoughts ... but is always wrong (there's a YouTube video of this I saw recently, it's very much as infuriating in real life as the video makes out). I've known people who cannot follow a conversation at all -- it's somewhat like leading a small child along, and prodding them. Not only do you have to point them in the right direction every few feet, but they're wandering off in some utterly incorrect (and inexplicable) direction when you don't do so. In one case, this seems related to an inability to form a correct model of what's happening in other people's minds (or having any idea that such a model might be useful). There's lack of familiarity with material, there's prior beliefs and knowledge which aren't correct. There's inability to draw connections or inferences (often accompanied by anger or frustration when prompted or coached to try doing so). Fascinating things, minds.

huuu 10y ago

Good listeners are also well rested. I'm a good listener, but not at the moment. After long days of programming and some lack of sleep I notice that my listening is going down. I really dislike this because I think now I'm faking to be a good listener. As for a lot of things: rest and sleep is important.

AnthonyNagid 10y ago

One of my favorite listeners is the pianist Chick Corea. Sure he can dazzle when the spotlight is on him but the support he provides as an accompanist is also top notch. Interestingly his listening skills as a jazz pianist are evident in his speech. In the same way that he helps his colleagues on the band stand to realize their visions in the moment he also seems to help channel the ideas of the people he talks with. There is an interview he did with John Mayer that I think illustrates this well. IMO Corea is a better listener than Mayer where as Mayer seems to be more involved with his own thoughts. http://chickcoreamusicworkshops.com/podcast/04-john-mayer/ http://chickcoreamusicworkshops.com/podcast/04-john-mayer/

hclivess 10y ago

Idiotic -.- "In fact, much management advice on listening suggests doing these very things – encouraging listeners to remain quiet, nod and “mm-hmm” encouragingly, and then repeat back"

MrBlue 10y ago

I've closed many a sale by simply just listening.

wibr 10y ago

"[...] other subtle body language signals. It is estimated that 80% of what we communicate comes from these signals." Sounded strange to me, so here's some background: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-words/201109/is-nonverbal-communication-numbers-game https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-words/201109/is-...

vermooten 10y ago

The article misses something important. It presents 'being a good listener' as a way of tricking the other person into giving up information. OTOH a REALLY good listener is genuinely interested in what the other person has to say. It's not a mind-game or a piece of oneupmanship: you have to actually give shit because this is a human being talking, not just an 'FTE'.

bakhy 10y ago

interesting research. i wasn't really that surprised by what they say about suggestions - i always thought the problem with giving suggestions is not in suggestions per se, but rather in the way they are given. people often suggest solutions in a condescending way that sounds like they're saying "your problems are so easy, here's the solution". or, the phrase "why don't you just...". it's of course really easy to be objective about things that have nothing to do with you personally. but when someone really listens well, i think they will empathize more, respect the other person's feelings, and this will be felt in their suggestions.

ptype 10y ago

Most people prefer talking to listening, so just asking a few question can get most conversations going. It's not unusual to hear someone say "we had such a great chat" when really that person did most of the talking. A trick that is used by many introverts, with great success.

ethanbond 10y ago
"With great success" for the introvert. The person doing the talking didn't really gain anything. And also when this happens to me I actually don't enjoy it. Propping up one sided conversations sucks, and I doubt that nearly as many people enjoy it as you're assuming.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > The person doing the talking didn't really gain anything. That's not necessarily so. If you just sit there like a lemon while somebody makes words at you, then, sure, they're not likely to get a lot out of it, except perhaps slightly improved buccal muscle tone. You have it within your power to produce a more valuable result.
- Practicality 10y ago
  You're making the same mistake as the person you are criticizing: Assuming that most people feel the same way you do about speaking vs listening. As always, it depends on what the person needs. It seems like you are a person who needs others to answer back and you feel like you are "giving" and the other is "taking" if you are talking and they aren't. Many feel the opposite. Listening is giving and talking is taking. For a lot of people talking is much easier than listening. You just say whatever comes into your head. Neither of you are more correct. Personally, I hate it when either person monologues. Both people talking is preferred. But that is just a preference.

MidnightRaver 10y ago

They retrieve weekly contracts from the Night Mother diligently.

golergka 10y ago

Doesn't level 6 sound like therapy, basically?

cammil 10y ago

My take on listening: https://letmeexplainyou.wordpress.com/2016/08/17/how-to-listen-well/ https://letmeexplainyou.wordpress.com/2016/08/17/how-to-list... TL;DR / Summary: Listening is innate Listening is not an active skill. Practicing it as such diminishes your ability to truly listen. Listening is improved through improving your own peace of mind One’s peace of mind is improved by doing good things. E.g. completing chores, being nice to people, doing things that reduce your regrets / guilt, etc. DO NOT follow much of the incorrect advice given around active listening and traits of a good listener. Listening is a special case of all using any sense, and the above advice applies similarly

throwanem 10y ago
I mean, I hear where you're coming from and I'm not going to say you're wrong, but this is like saying that endurance training is unnecessary because humans are innately able to run marathons.
- cammil 10y ago
  I think metaphors and analogies are difficult to argue with. Of course I am saying something which is hopefully falsifiable otherwise I am not really saying anything at all. The best way to test this is some kind of controlled experiment. But aint nobody got time for that. I would say however, there is absolutely no need to take my word for it. I would actually recommend you don't. You can test this out for yourself. I would certainly recommend that. After all, it's more about what works for you.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > it's more about what works for you No. It's about what works for the person to whom I'm listening, and my experience suggests at best an extremely limited role for a personal zen, however well polished.
    - cammil 10y ago
      Well then our experiences differ. That's okay. Of course your experience is your evidence. And that is what I mean by "what works for you".

hysan 10y ago

So great listeners do what great teachers often do. Especially when teaching one-on-one or in discussions.

mlvljr 10y ago

I will tell you what they do - they do freakin care, that's it!

kijin 10y ago

The six levels suggested in the article could also serve as a guide for speakers. If you're trying to convey important information and the listener just doesn't seem to get it, ask yourself whether you are expecting them to engage in a higher, more demanding level of listening than they are currently able to. For example, the article says that 80% of what most people try to communicate occur at Level 4: body language. But if you can convey at least some of that information verbally, you'll be able to achieve similar results even if the listener is only at Level 3. This is especially useful if the listener is on the other side of a phone call or an internet forum.

mikmoila 10y ago

"Good listening invariably included some feedback provided in a way others would accept and that opened up alternative paths to consider." This might be related to why group brainstorming doesn't result in good ideas as often we think: https://hbr.org/2015/03/why-group-brainstorming-is-a-waste-of-time https://hbr.org/2015/03/why-group-brainstorming-is-a-waste-o...

namaemuta 10y ago

After almost a year volunteering in 7cups.com as a listener, I can't agree more with the article. When you show genuine interest for what other people are telling you, they will talk openly for hours and will leave the conversation feeling way better than they started it.

altendo 10y ago
Totally agree with you. I've been volunteering at a crisis center and active listening is so vital to what we do.
throwanem 10y ago
> almost a year volunteering in 7cups.com as a listener How have you found it? I've thought about doing that myself from time to time, and I would value anything you'd like to share about your experience there.
- namaemuta 10y ago
  In general is a very rewarding experience and in 7cups.com it's also very comfortable to do it (I don't have experience in other similar services so I can't talk about them). You don't have any pressure on when or how many times you should do it and how much time you should spend. You volunteer whenever you feel up to (and this is how it should be because your mood is very important when you are dealing with these things). People's problems can variate from light ones to very complex ones so it's very important to have the adequate mindset, keeping in mind what you are doing there (offering support by listening) and where are your limits. If not, the frustration can overcome you. It's not free of trolls but I have rarely found them there and the majority of the people is very grateful just for boosting up their mood, which gives you a good feeling after finishing a conversation :)
  - throwanem 10y ago
    This is exactly the sort of answer I was hoping for; on the strength of it, I think I may very well decide to give it a try. Thank you very much! I really appreciate you taking the time.

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losteverything 10y ago

Listening is a journey. Now I seek conversation with people usually unaccustomed to being listened to. To give my trust as they give theirs, a conversation can be a beautiful joyous thing.

ysavir 10y ago

It's almost like the word "listening" is being used instead of the more appropriate word "supporting". Can we just stop using the word "listening", which was never appropriate for this context, instead of debating/evaluating its meaning?

haddr 10y ago

Side note: the hbr.org website is taking over 30% of the screen by showing this thick upper gray bar, which the only function is to show you how far you've already read. What a waste of space & UI.

simbalion 10y ago

You can't "perform" good listening skills. Listening to people is about caring what they are saying. This article appears to be written by people who are not capable or interested in caring about what other people are saying. They techniques they described are phony. Good listeners are never phony.

overcast 10y ago

Are there any excellent books on this topic?

chairleader 10y ago
I'll throw out Marshall Rosenberg's "Nonviolent Communication." Call it one framework for listening centered around resolving conflict between individuals and groups. It provides examples of the kind of active listening and questioning mentioned in the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication#Four_components https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication#Four_... https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Marshall-Rosenberg/dp/1892005034 https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Mar...
- overcast 10y ago
  That's a good starting point, thank you!
- woodandsteel 10y ago
  That's a great book.

elderdnyx 10y ago

Great Listeners always use empathy.

cmarschner 10y ago

Years ago I found habit 5 of Steven Coveys "7 Habits of highly effective people" a great ("idiot's") guide to listening. That book is often reduced to habit "first things first", but said chapter was much more life changing for me. Also to be applied when raising kids (Covey should have known, he and his wife had 9 of them).

CurtMonash 10y ago

A huge fraction of what I do for a living is as a consultant or an interviewer. So I had better be an effective and in particular high-bandwidth listener. 1. I absolutely provide feedback about what I think I heard. One common technique is versions of "I think I understood you to say X, Y and Z. But I have question A, and whatever you said that sounded vaguely like B flew totally over my head." That kind of thing boosts my understanding in a hurry. And the other party usually seems to appreciate it. 2. It's a cliche' in consulting that whatever question the client asks isn't the question they should be asking, or the most important one that's on their mind. So you have to get somehow from the stated question to the real one. In some consulting relationships, that can take days or weeks, and you'll still have done a great job. But in others you need to do it pretty much on the spot, in the same part of the same conversation that the question was originally asked. 3. If you feel you interrupted too much, then stop and invite the person to repeat themselves uninterrupted. I believe that I am usually forgiven when I do that.