9 ms·
Until it becomes socially acceptable to bring a tax return and 401k statement on a first date, nice clothes and a nice car are going to remain the only way to d
by aianus 10y ago
Until it becomes socially acceptable to bring a tax return and 401k statement on a first date, nice clothes and a nice car are going to remain the only way to demonstrate success to a stranger.
- bsou 10y agothere is also the possibility of talking to them about their life
- aianus 10y agoThe guy with the suit, house, and car is doing that too.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- coldtea 10y agoSo? If they're that shallow to prefer the fancier suit and car over the more appropriate soul mate, let them fucking have them...
- wyager 10y agoAccusing someone of being "shallow" because they have evolutionarily sensible sexual preferences is incredibly puerile. Any evolutionarily rational person would place substantial value on a partner who can provide for themselves and their offspring.
- coldtea 10y ago>Accusing someone of being "shallow" because they have evolutionarily sensible sexual preferences is incredibly puerile. Being shallow is exactly that: being "evolutionarily sensible". Unlike animals, that can be only (or mostly) "evolutionarily sensible", we have critical and self-critical faculties, and can see beyond what's "evolutionarily sensible". And of course, billions of people don't give a rats arse about whether the person they'll fall in love with has a fast car and a fancy suit, or the body type that signals "I'll have plenty of milk for our offspring". >Any evolutionarily rational person would place substantial value on a partner who can provide for themselves and their offspring. If they see the world as some kind of jungle where what matters is a partner who can "provide for themselves and their offspring" then they're not just shallow, but also regressive.
- wyager 10y agoYou are allowed to have more than one factor in your preferences. > And of course, billions of people don't give a rats arse about whether the person they'll fall in love with has ... the body type that signals "I'll have plenty of milk for our offspring". Which billions of people? Females? Yeah, they're typically not looking for milk production in a mate. On the other hand, breasts are a huge component of male attraction in most cultures. As for fancy cars, it's not the car itself; it's what it signifies. (Although personally, I would place substantial value on a mate driving fast cars! I love driving.) In what way is it "regressive" to seek a mate who can provide for one's children?
- coldtea 10y ago>On the other hand, breasts are a huge component of male attraction in most cultures. Yes, when you're 16 years old. Or maybe 20. At some point people (not everybody, but I'd say most) learn to see beyond "boobz" in a mate. Especially one they'll marry. >As for fancy cars, it's not the car itself; it's what it signifies. A small penis? >In what way is it "regressive" to seek a mate who can provide for one's children? In the 20th and 21th century we had this women's liberation thing, where both mates should be able to provide for their children, instead of picking the mate that will provide for you.
- aianus 10y agoA 30+ career-oriented woman interested in marriage and children is the antithesis of who I'm trying to attract :)
- barrkel 10y agoA hooker would be cheaper, frankly.
- aianus 10y agoI don't think they would be. Stupid crap to keep up with the Joneses is running me $1000 a month whereas a hooker is what, $200 an hour plus risk of jail time and disease? Plus there is some inherent value in a nice place and a nice car besides showing off :)
- randomgyatwork 10y agoIf you care to prove you are 'successful'
- brightsize 10y agoAnd if you think that having money == "success".
- onetwotree 10y agoYou're really missing the point.
- snerbles 10y agoConvincing him otherwise is like telling a snowflake not to join in on an avalanche.
- onetwotree 10y agoSadly you're probably right. But you can always hope to have planted a seed.
- mod 10y agoYou've really pinpointed your definition of success there. It's not the same as mine.
- bunderbunder 10y agoA couple thoughts there. First, not everyone defines success in such material terms. If you don't, you probably also aren't interested in attracting a mate who does. Second, in a society as laden in consumer debt as the USA in the early 21st century, the nature of the correlation between financial wellbeing and ownership of nice things is far from certain. To put it in its most basic terms, the $40k someone spent on their BMW is, by definition, money they didn't stick in their 401k.
- aianus 10y agoHaving money is a pretty good heuristic for a lot of positive traits that women generally look for in a mate. It's pretty damn hard to buy a new luxury car with below-average intelligence, social skills, discipline, determination, etc. And unfortunately unless you're a doctor, lawyer, or CEO, 'having nice things' is the only socially appropriate way to signal that. I don't like it, but it works really well and sexual selection is what sells luxury cars in general, not advertising. Not to mention, 'compatible value systems' are not necessary to bring a girl home after a first date and have some fun...
- dragontamer 10y ago> It's pretty damn hard to buy a new luxury car with below-average intelligence, social skills, discipline, determination, etc. Yeah. That's why they lease those cars. ------------ Its rather easy today to borrow money and get things that are completely unsustainable. Nothing against people who actually like leasing cars (some people MUST have a new car every 2 years, so its cheaper to lease than to buy). But a huge number of people who are leasing cars simply can't afford the car. So instead, they go for a "low cost monthly plan" that doesn't build any wealth at all.
- aianus 10y agoHaving $500/mo in free cash flow for the lease payment already shows that you're richer than the majority of twenty-something males. It's just a heuristic, of course, but it does establish a bare minimum of financial success.
- karma_vaccum123 10y agoIf that is what it takes for you to demonstrate attractiveness to a prospective mate...maybe you should hit the gym more. "I liked her because she liked me because of my car" said no one ever?
- sliverstorm 10y agoThe idea isn't that you have a nice car and that makes you attractive. It just gets simplified to that for caricature. The idea is, no matter who you are as a person, the version of you that is healthy, fit, and clearly never has to worry about money, is one of the more attractive versions of you. She's not a gold digger, she just wants to be with someone who is financially secure.
- freshhawk 10y agoEven "she wants to be with someone who is financially secure" seems to get taken the wrong way. One relationship has more fun/fulfilling lifestyle options available and the other has fewer. This applies to anyone regardless of gender, although a lot of people have hangups about traditional roles and money.
- jazzyk 10y agoThe context here is "first date". There are far more important things to think about on first date such as "Do I like this guy?", not how expensive his car is.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- wyager 10y agoRight, it makes a lot more sense to judge people on their adherence to a particular muscular profile than on their wealth. Fitness is an indicator of physical health and ability to defend from predators and fancy cars and clothes are indicators of mental/social prowess and ability to garner resources. They're both valid, if imperfect, criteria by which to judge someone for reproductive fitness.
- freshhawk 10y agoBut once you see this for what it is, that changes things doesn't it? It certainly does for your personal life where you are going to feel less inclined to impress people who are impressed in this way. Of course sometimes you want to impress people who don't see this anyway, most obviously the job interview or the business meeting. Well in that case: it's incredibly easy to fake these signals, especially when you see them for what they are. But you still went to tax return/401K, so defining success as owning a lot of the medium of exchange. Not that you have exchanged it for the correct things or gotten them some other way. So you got past viewing nice clothes and cars as and end in themselves but not past viewing money as an end in itself. There is another step you can take, another narrative that has been built to motivate you to act in another group's interest you can abandon.
- jazzyk 10y agoI made it a point to use public transportation and not drive a car when dating my (now) wife, at least for the first several dates. I wanted to make sure she liked me for what I am, not my possessions (owning a car at my age was quite rare back then). Luckily, she turned out to not care and life has been good :-)
- nostrademons 10y agoMy wife's told me that if I'd showed up in a BMW she probably would've cut the date short. (I walked to the Caltrain station and we Caltrained up together.) Dating's a way to get a read on someone's value system and find someone who shares your values. It's a mistake to think that everyone shares mainstream American cultural values, even in America. There are plenty of people who don't buy into consumerism or advertising messages.
- taurath 10y agoIts funny that nowadays the idea that you live in a place where you can walk to a caltrain station makes you more likely to be a millionaire than driving a BMW 7 series.
- coldtea 10y agoFor one, who said success is "nice clothes and a nice car"? And why "demonstrate success" on a date? What is the other person supposed to be? Whore/Gigolo?
- wyager 10y agoNice clothes and a nice car indicate financial wellbeing, which is a desirable characteristic in a mate. Why demonstrate success on a date? What do you think the purpose of a date is? It's a courtship ritual where you try to demonstrate your reproductive value to a potential mate. There are many components to this; appearance, wealth, personality, etc. I think you have this mixed up; a prostitute is precisely the person you don't need to indicate your value to. You just pay them.
- jazzyk 10y ago>you try to demonstrate your reproductive value to a potential mate Gosh, you are quite the romantic, aren't you... ;-)
- coldtea 10y ago>What do you think the purpose of a date is? I thought it was to get to know the person, build a relationship and maybe bed them (if you're too horny). But now I've learned its purpose is to show your bling and evolutionary advantages to send the right primitive signals to the other hardly developed monkey-human. >I think you have this mixed up; a prostitute is precisely the person you don't need to indicate your value to. You just pay them. The distance between a whore and a golddigger is not that wide.
- wyager 10y agoThe things in your first paragraph are, for the most part, euphemisms for "evaluate the person's reproductive fitness". What do you think "getting to know someone" entails? You literally mention sex in the same sentence; this is the fundamental evolutionary (not teleological) purpose of courtship, regardless of how you dress it up.