6 ms·

If I'm not mistaken, non-profits ( virtually all hospitals, colleges, and universities ) are exempt from cap on H1b visas. It would be interesting to know how

If I'm not mistaken, non-profits ( virtually all hospitals, colleges, and universities ) are exempt from cap on H1b visas. It would be interesting to know how many H1b visa holders are employed in STEM positions at institutions that are exempt from the cap. What if it were something scandalous like 800,000 or 1,000,000? If the numbers were this high, it might have something to do with the fact that there's so much double speak about STEM shortage / STEM surplus in the United States. More American STEM degree holders might be able to find jobs if they weren't forced to compete with foreign nationals.

hga 10y ago
To my memory, you're not mistaken, but as I recall the numbers are in the very low six figures if that, but it's certainly an big issue for people considering the science route including a Ph.D. and postdoc work before trying to land a permanent job. In fact, it was the nation's science policy establishment that started this whole mess in the late '80s or so when they apparently decided they were paying too much money for scientific labor in universities and akin non-profit research institutions, as I recall the National Science Foundation got the ball rolling, (But my focus on that "industry" back then might have caused me to overlook the same in the E and T in STEM, and certainly "consulting" and the safe tax harbor for it were a very big issue at the same time and cost me my job then, see Section 1706 of the Tax Reform Act of 1986, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_treatment_of_technical_service_firms_employing_certain_professionals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_tre... .)
- biocomputation 10y ago
  >> Tax Reform Act of 1986, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_tre.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_tre.... .) Fascinating. I hadn't seen that before.
  - hga 10y ago
    While it's debatably correct policy (e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Labor_practices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Labor_p...), good old Pat Moynihan inserted it into the bill in the dead of night with no discussion, for the benefit of few big IT bodyshops (IBM wasn't mentioned at the time), since we all had to use them going forward, giving them more than a small cut of our compensation. Or just work directly for The Man, one company I worked for in '93-4, for a specific, time limited contract they were fulfilling (a cool NASA science Data Distribution Facility), had their default body shop refuse to hire me for some reason, so I was made a no/small? benefits hourly worker. Anyway, it suddenly smashed the working setup of many, many technical professionals, and very seldom for the better. And rather strange to single us out, yes, an indirect bill of attainder perhaps? Further anyway, starting in the late '80s national/Federal public policy turned irredeemably hostile towards us, and you can see it in the static real wages we've earned since around that period. We may be viewed as essential, but....
atemerev 10y ago
What is the "force" here? Hiring a person via H1B is more, not less expensive, than hiring a local.
- rangibaby 10y ago
  That doesn't sound right to me. If it's the case, then why do they bother hiring H1B?
  - NhanH 10y ago
    If you believe in the claim that they can't find a local then it's consistent.
  - atemerev 10y ago
    Reasons including, but not limited to: a) actual shortage of specialists (shocker!) b) new projects that has to be staffed quickly (we need 50 Java EE developers in Phoenix, AZ, for the project starting in 6 months) c) moving existing projects to maintenance mode after feature completion: existing expensive team is downsized, and lower-cost maintenance engineers are hired to fix occasional bugs and user support (have to be hired fast and in large numbers, hence the shortage and need for H1B). This creates a lot of protest and drama, but looks like a perfectly valid business decision to me: some projects actually do reach completion stage, and keeping all expensive developers afterwards doesn't make any sense.
- gozur88 10y ago
  No. That may be true for a tiny handful of experts, but most of them are paid less.
  - atemerev 10y ago
    Less than who? To hire somebody via H1B route, you need to: a) pay at least average salary for this position; b) prove that there are no local candidates available for your opening, c) prove that it is not because of your low pay rates, but because of genuine shortage of specialists with these particular skills, d) pay processing fees and wait for at least 6 months, perhaps more.
aidenn0 10y ago
I also find it odd that we allow people to come to our Universities and then kick them out once we've trained them. That seems like an inconsistent policy. The school I went to had a decent sized group of students from China, and all but one of them is back there, despite wanting a job in the US. To be consistent then if we are nationalistic, we should either strive to keep the graduates here, or not allow them in our universities at all. Conversely if we are globalistic, then we should be fine with immigrants working here.
- avar 10y ago
  Why shouldn't universities benefit from the influx of foreign money and students regardless of what happens with immigration policy?
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  It wasn't like this in the past, none of the Chinese I knew as an undergrad or grad are back in China. But their are also many many more Chinese going to school in the states these days.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  " and then kick them out once we've trained them. " University is not 'tranining'. A STEM degree doesn't really prepare you for much. At a startup, you have developers, product, product marketing, marketing, finance, ops, HR. Most devs are needed for their practical skills: experience in programming, getting through nightmare builds, tons of APS, grasp of server technologies etc. etc.. Most devs are not dealing with highly scientific or 'researchy' things. I think STEM grads are often much, much better placed to do Dev, and if they take the time to learn the skills, I'll take an Eng/Science grad usually over others because there are a bunch of other intangible benefits, but smarty pants arts major could easily do the work if they were motivated, and sometimes that has advantage today given focus on user experience which is sometimes a little too intangible for some to grasp well.
fennecfoxen 10y ago
I like that the top comment on this article is about a hypothetical possibility for a theoretical scandal and not about, say, the actual state of reality.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  We wouldn't want to go asking questions, would we? I think the tone of my comment is on point: it would be interesting to know, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask questions about how many foreign nationals are currently doing jobs that could be done by Americans. Especially in the context of the ongoing debate about STEM surplus vs. shortage.
leemailll 10y ago
This type of non-profits h1b positions more than likely are postdoc positions, which really not a job
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  Why isn't a postdoc a real job? A postdoc is a professional position in a research institute working as part of a team under a more senior researcher. They're normal full-time salaried positions with career paths everywhere that I've seen them.
  - etendue 10y ago
    In the US, an academic postdoc is a training position with a shamefully low salary and without provision for advancement, somewhat analogous to a medical internship. It's a job, but not a career. Depending on location, there may be mechanisms to preferentially hire a postdoc on as non-tenured faculty. It became more common in biomedical sciences after the recession when grad students stayed on for "postdocs" with their advisors when they couldn't find a job, and were then aged out of the postdoc.
maxerickson 10y ago
USCIS publishes annual reports that include the number of approved H-1B visas. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/H-1B/h-1B-characteristics-report-14.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re... So clearly there are lots of people working outside the cap. The approvals listed there would indicate the maximum possible number, I think you'd have to combine 3 years of reports to get an estimate of the total population.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  Thanks for this info! Do you think these numbers affect the STEM shortage / surplus arguments?
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    I have no idea. I knew a phd who did a couple of post docs on a J1 for a lot less than the average salary given in the report there. Just an anecdote, but it points away from H-1Bs competing for science jobs.

hga 10y ago

To my memory, you're not mistaken, but as I recall the numbers are in the very low six figures if that, but it's certainly an big issue for people considering the science route including a Ph.D. and postdoc work before trying to land a permanent job. In fact, it was the nation's science policy establishment that started this whole mess in the late '80s or so when they apparently decided they were paying too much money for scientific labor in universities and akin non-profit research institutions, as I recall the National Science Foundation got the ball rolling, (But my focus on that "industry" back then might have caused me to overlook the same in the E and T in STEM, and certainly "consulting" and the safe tax harbor for it were a very big issue at the same time and cost me my job then, see Section 1706 of the Tax Reform Act of 1986, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_treatment_of_technical_service_firms_employing_certain_professionals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_tre... .)

biocomputation 10y ago
>> Tax Reform Act of 1986, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_tre.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_tre.... .) Fascinating. I hadn't seen that before.
- hga 10y ago
  While it's debatably correct policy (e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Labor_practices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft#Labor_p...), good old Pat Moynihan inserted it into the bill in the dead of night with no discussion, for the benefit of few big IT bodyshops (IBM wasn't mentioned at the time), since we all had to use them going forward, giving them more than a small cut of our compensation. Or just work directly for The Man, one company I worked for in '93-4, for a specific, time limited contract they were fulfilling (a cool NASA science Data Distribution Facility), had their default body shop refuse to hire me for some reason, so I was made a no/small? benefits hourly worker. Anyway, it suddenly smashed the working setup of many, many technical professionals, and very seldom for the better. And rather strange to single us out, yes, an indirect bill of attainder perhaps? Further anyway, starting in the late '80s national/Federal public policy turned irredeemably hostile towards us, and you can see it in the static real wages we've earned since around that period. We may be viewed as essential, but....

atemerev 10y ago

What is the "force" here? Hiring a person via H1B is more, not less expensive, than hiring a local.

rangibaby 10y ago
That doesn't sound right to me. If it's the case, then why do they bother hiring H1B?
- NhanH 10y ago
  If you believe in the claim that they can't find a local then it's consistent.
- atemerev 10y ago
  Reasons including, but not limited to: a) actual shortage of specialists (shocker!) b) new projects that has to be staffed quickly (we need 50 Java EE developers in Phoenix, AZ, for the project starting in 6 months) c) moving existing projects to maintenance mode after feature completion: existing expensive team is downsized, and lower-cost maintenance engineers are hired to fix occasional bugs and user support (have to be hired fast and in large numbers, hence the shortage and need for H1B). This creates a lot of protest and drama, but looks like a perfectly valid business decision to me: some projects actually do reach completion stage, and keeping all expensive developers afterwards doesn't make any sense.
gozur88 10y ago
No. That may be true for a tiny handful of experts, but most of them are paid less.
- atemerev 10y ago
  Less than who? To hire somebody via H1B route, you need to: a) pay at least average salary for this position; b) prove that there are no local candidates available for your opening, c) prove that it is not because of your low pay rates, but because of genuine shortage of specialists with these particular skills, d) pay processing fees and wait for at least 6 months, perhaps more.

aidenn0 10y ago

I also find it odd that we allow people to come to our Universities and then kick them out once we've trained them. That seems like an inconsistent policy. The school I went to had a decent sized group of students from China, and all but one of them is back there, despite wanting a job in the US. To be consistent then if we are nationalistic, we should either strive to keep the graduates here, or not allow them in our universities at all. Conversely if we are globalistic, then we should be fine with immigrants working here.

avar 10y ago
Why shouldn't universities benefit from the influx of foreign money and students regardless of what happens with immigration policy?
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
It wasn't like this in the past, none of the Chinese I knew as an undergrad or grad are back in China. But their are also many many more Chinese going to school in the states these days.
jomamaxx 10y ago
" and then kick them out once we've trained them. " University is not 'tranining'. A STEM degree doesn't really prepare you for much. At a startup, you have developers, product, product marketing, marketing, finance, ops, HR. Most devs are needed for their practical skills: experience in programming, getting through nightmare builds, tons of APS, grasp of server technologies etc. etc.. Most devs are not dealing with highly scientific or 'researchy' things. I think STEM grads are often much, much better placed to do Dev, and if they take the time to learn the skills, I'll take an Eng/Science grad usually over others because there are a bunch of other intangible benefits, but smarty pants arts major could easily do the work if they were motivated, and sometimes that has advantage today given focus on user experience which is sometimes a little too intangible for some to grasp well.

fennecfoxen 10y ago

I like that the top comment on this article is about a hypothetical possibility for a theoretical scandal and not about, say, the actual state of reality.

biocomputation 10y ago
We wouldn't want to go asking questions, would we? I think the tone of my comment is on point: it would be interesting to know, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask questions about how many foreign nationals are currently doing jobs that could be done by Americans. Especially in the context of the ongoing debate about STEM surplus vs. shortage.

leemailll 10y ago

This type of non-profits h1b positions more than likely are postdoc positions, which really not a job

chrisseaton 10y ago
Why isn't a postdoc a real job? A postdoc is a professional position in a research institute working as part of a team under a more senior researcher. They're normal full-time salaried positions with career paths everywhere that I've seen them.
- etendue 10y ago
  In the US, an academic postdoc is a training position with a shamefully low salary and without provision for advancement, somewhat analogous to a medical internship. It's a job, but not a career. Depending on location, there may be mechanisms to preferentially hire a postdoc on as non-tenured faculty. It became more common in biomedical sciences after the recession when grad students stayed on for "postdocs" with their advisors when they couldn't find a job, and were then aged out of the postdoc.

maxerickson 10y ago

USCIS publishes annual reports that include the number of approved H-1B visas. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/H-1B/h-1B-characteristics-report-14.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re... So clearly there are lots of people working outside the cap. The approvals listed there would indicate the maximum possible number, I think you'd have to combine 3 years of reports to get an estimate of the total population.

biocomputation 10y ago
Thanks for this info! Do you think these numbers affect the STEM shortage / surplus arguments?
- maxerickson 10y ago
  I have no idea. I knew a phd who did a couple of post docs on a J1 for a lot less than the average salary given in the report there. Just an anecdote, but it points away from H-1Bs competing for science jobs.