5 ms·

> We live in a society where anywhere and everyone can have a gun at any time, and police are responding with fear in dangerous ways. We have always lived in a

> We live in a society where anywhere and everyone can have a gun at any time, and police are responding with fear in dangerous ways. We have always lived in a society with lots of guns. This level of police fear is totally unwarranted (yes, I am well aware of the Dallas shootings, but they happened recently, while the police have been shooting willy-nilly for years). I blame the militarization of police, and indirectly the war in Iraq (from where a lot of these cops come from, having served a tour or two). Both sides need to calm the fuck down. And aggressive, pumped cops who draw their weapons at the first chance need to be put out uniform. Added later: I'd like to add that policing has not been this safe in decades. Last year 123 officers were killed on duty (which includes all deaths, including accidents, falls, etc.). The last time this few were killed (excluding last couple of years) is in 1959: http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.htm...

gozur88 10y ago
>I blame the militarization of police, and indirectly the war in Iraq (from where a lot of these cops come from, having served a tour or two). That doesn't make sense. There were always a lot of military veterans in police forces.
- jauer 10y ago
  Yeah, I have family that went to Iraq and they seem to be like "If we were that trigger-happy we'd be in jail. If we can operate in a war zone with tighter rules of engagement and risk of car bombs what's their problem?" I think it's training and discipline. Training: Seems like Military's primary job is training and police see it as an annoyance. Discipline: military people go to jail for breaking RoE. Police CYA and get away with it. Things are pretty wack when the infantry is better at not shooting innocent people in a war zone than police in a relatively safe country.
  - newjersey 10y ago
    > Discipline: military people go to jail for breaking RoE. Police CYA and get away with it. I absolutely agree. This is the gist of it. There is really nothing more and nothing less. Better training will always help but is useless without enforcement with "teeth". See http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index.ssf/2015/04/video_shows_jersey_city_cop_de.html http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index.ssf/2015/04/video_show... I resent the automatic position the union takes in any case. > Carmine Disbrow, president of the Jersey City Police Officers Benevolent Association, is defending the cops. They seem too eager to try to prove that they are worth the money they take out from the salary. Edit: Here's another: http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/10/jersey_city_police_officer_michael_spolizino_not_g.html http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/10/jersey_city_polic... > During the trial, Garrigan noted that Clifford was crossing against the green, implying that Clifford bore some of the responsibility. He also noted that speeding on Kennedy Boulevard is common. Can I say that to get out of a speeding ticket? No? Why not? Also http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/01/trial_date_nearing_for_jersey_city_cop_charged_wit.html http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/01/trial_date_nearin... > Police said there was no indication that Spolizino was under the influence of alcohol or any other substance, so a sobriety test was not administered.
- coldtea 10y ago
  Yeah, but the war wasn't always a Rambo like affair. If anything, an experience in WWII or Vietman etc, would make you not take violence that lightly, as the modern "war as game" and not being in equal terms with the enemy but 10 times as armoured can make you...
joezydeco 10y ago
...I blame the militarization of police... But, ironically, the military has rules of engagement when it comes to enemy combatants. You take many, many, steps before you open fire. We gave the cops the military surplus weapons, but not the training on how/when to use them.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
Like joezydeco said & Dirk Praet on Schneier's blog, the "militarization" of police here is worse than it seems because our police are more aggressive than soldiers on battlefields. Those among my friends and family all griped about the rules of engagement they follow. Like their should be with policing, there's a series of events and escalations that can happen to reduce odds they shoot wrong person or just cause a huge scene. Dirk said in a debate that our situation would improve a lot if U.S. police encountering U.S. citizens would exercise at least as much caution as U.S. troops do on foreign ones. What an observation.
coldtea 10y ago
>We have always lived in a society with lots of guns. No we didn't (lot's of guns maybe -- the police using them like this, no). In the times of the "Old West" maybe, but from what I've read and watched, police didn't behave that way up until after the 50s and 60s, this "Rambo/Dirty Harry" shit started sometime in the late 70s-80s, along with "Zero Tolerance" and other stupid ideas... And of course sending something like a SWAT team for BS micro-offences like we read today was unheard of. >Both sides need to calm the fuck down. Both the police and the innocent getting shot or targeted?

gozur88 10y ago

>I blame the militarization of police, and indirectly the war in Iraq (from where a lot of these cops come from, having served a tour or two). That doesn't make sense. There were always a lot of military veterans in police forces.

jauer 10y ago
Yeah, I have family that went to Iraq and they seem to be like "If we were that trigger-happy we'd be in jail. If we can operate in a war zone with tighter rules of engagement and risk of car bombs what's their problem?" I think it's training and discipline. Training: Seems like Military's primary job is training and police see it as an annoyance. Discipline: military people go to jail for breaking RoE. Police CYA and get away with it. Things are pretty wack when the infantry is better at not shooting innocent people in a war zone than police in a relatively safe country.
- newjersey 10y ago
  > Discipline: military people go to jail for breaking RoE. Police CYA and get away with it. I absolutely agree. This is the gist of it. There is really nothing more and nothing less. Better training will always help but is useless without enforcement with "teeth". See http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index.ssf/2015/04/video_shows_jersey_city_cop_de.html http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index.ssf/2015/04/video_show... I resent the automatic position the union takes in any case. > Carmine Disbrow, president of the Jersey City Police Officers Benevolent Association, is defending the cops. They seem too eager to try to prove that they are worth the money they take out from the salary. Edit: Here's another: http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/10/jersey_city_police_officer_michael_spolizino_not_g.html http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/10/jersey_city_polic... > During the trial, Garrigan noted that Clifford was crossing against the green, implying that Clifford bore some of the responsibility. He also noted that speeding on Kennedy Boulevard is common. Can I say that to get out of a speeding ticket? No? Why not? Also http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/01/trial_date_nearing_for_jersey_city_cop_charged_wit.html http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/01/trial_date_nearin... > Police said there was no indication that Spolizino was under the influence of alcohol or any other substance, so a sobriety test was not administered.
coldtea 10y ago
Yeah, but the war wasn't always a Rambo like affair. If anything, an experience in WWII or Vietman etc, would make you not take violence that lightly, as the modern "war as game" and not being in equal terms with the enemy but 10 times as armoured can make you...

joezydeco 10y ago

...I blame the militarization of police... But, ironically, the military has rules of engagement when it comes to enemy combatants. You take many, many, steps before you open fire. We gave the cops the military surplus weapons, but not the training on how/when to use them.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

Like joezydeco said & Dirk Praet on Schneier's blog, the "militarization" of police here is worse than it seems because our police are more aggressive than soldiers on battlefields. Those among my friends and family all griped about the rules of engagement they follow. Like their should be with policing, there's a series of events and escalations that can happen to reduce odds they shoot wrong person or just cause a huge scene. Dirk said in a debate that our situation would improve a lot if U.S. police encountering U.S. citizens would exercise at least as much caution as U.S. troops do on foreign ones. What an observation.

coldtea 10y ago

>We have always lived in a society with lots of guns. No we didn't (lot's of guns maybe -- the police using them like this, no). In the times of the "Old West" maybe, but from what I've read and watched, police didn't behave that way up until after the 50s and 60s, this "Rambo/Dirty Harry" shit started sometime in the late 70s-80s, along with "Zero Tolerance" and other stupid ideas... And of course sending something like a SWAT team for BS micro-offences like we read today was unheard of. >Both sides need to calm the fuck down. Both the police and the innocent getting shot or targeted?