4 ms·

Hey on the bright side it's not like any of our existing socioeconomic systems are great. Last I checked we did not live in a utopia.

by api 10y ago

Swizec 10y ago
Not utopia compared to what? My great grandmother had to have 8 kids so that she could have 4 or 5 adult children. That was less than 100 years ago. My grand parents were the children of subsistence farmers without running water or electricity. They went to high school, worked in factories, and could get broadcast TV in their living room. Electricity and running water became a base default. My parents work in an office pushing papers around. Even the society of their youth seems alien in its antiquatedness of both social mores and amenities. I get paid to think things and can reasonably expect to live essentially disease free until my 70's. Achieving 90 in relatively good health and vitality doesn't seem out of the question. Seems pretty utopic to me. What not-utopia are you talking about? EDIT: Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo Over the past 200 years, the difference between 1st world and 3rd world has all but vanished. We still have a ways to go, but no utopia is perfect. Even in the movies.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Compared to Star Trek. That we are doing better than previous generations only inspires confidence that we could do even better in the future.
- knieveltech 10y ago
  Sex trafficking, international terrorism, homelessness, racism, crushing poverty, wage theft, mass shootings, income inequality, food deserts...are you for real?
  - drcross 10y ago
    Try walking alone unarmed across any city late at night from any era over 100 years ago and you took your life in your hands. Just because mass media is bringing you stories of the miseries of the world does not mean they are more prevalent. The majority of the world has been lifted out of poverty in the past 200 years to something unrecognizable and the pockets of turmoil that still remain will be fixed as time goes on.
    - knieveltech 10y ago
      Delightfully faith-based assertions regarding the future. You'll note we were discussing the near total lack of semblance between modern society and any number of utopian ideals. Apologetics aren't making the comparison any more flattering.
- llamataboot 10y ago
  and the people that grow your coffee beans? How long do they live for? There is a tension between believing that a rising tide will lift all boats (eventually, someday) and that part of the prosperity of much of the West is directly built upon the back of a system that disenfranchises most of the developing world -- depending upon it for cheap and disposable labor, waste dumping sites, etc.
  - Swizec 10y ago
    The people who grow my coffee beans also live much better than they used to. We're enjoying a before unseen period of peace and prosperity. Globally. Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo Over the past 200 years, the difference between 1st world and 3rd world has all but vanished. We still have a ways to go, but no utopia is perfect. Even in the movies.
    - llamataboot 10y ago
      I take your point, and it is one interpretation. There is another interpretation as well. Here, I'll trade you videos. From a now-ethereum venture capitalist, so not just a hippie dippie leftist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkQCy-UrLYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkQCy-UrLYw it's short, ten minutes
- andrepd 10y ago
  We are better than we were the generation before. Big deal. That's precisely the point: we aren't at the end game, there is still far ahead to push forward to.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >I get paid to think things and can reasonably expect to live essentially disease free until my 70's. Achieving 90 in relatively good health and vitality doesn't seem out of the question. No, you'll probably start suffering from diseases of affluence well below that. Sooner or later, heart disease, lung disease, diabetes, cancer, and pals crop up among basically everyone who doesn't carefully optimize their lifestyle to maximize health. In fact, the same principle applies to most of the rest of your lifestyle: it all seems very nice because you're discounting the incredibly careful and difficult-to-duplicate optimization of everything from personal habits to major life choices. Your entire life (our entire lives, really: it's me too) is essentially golden handcuffs. This is a major step up from handcuffs made of rusty saw-blades that cut and give you tetanus whenever you move, but you're still actually handcuffed.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
pgodzin 10y ago
Sure but the anarchism of blowing up existing systems in hopes of great ones hurts a ton of people in the process with marginal likelihoods of success
- knieveltech 10y ago
  Whereas desperately clinging to the decaying hulk of existing systems guarantees continued suffering and exploitation with literally no chance of success. So...
  - pgodzin 10y ago
    No chance of success? They are by no means perfect, but millions of people in the US alone benefit from our decaying hulks of existing systems. Sure, an ideal system can help millions more or help those millions more, but blowing them up and hoping something better comes out of it leaves millions that rely on them in the cold.
    - knieveltech 10y ago
      Go look at a graph of income inequality over the last 30 years. Reflect on the fact that 30 years ago Detroit was a bustling industrial hub. Contemplate the fact that we have more people in jail in this country than any other country in the world. Child poverty & homelessness are at near-historic levels and rising. Critical environmental regulations are being dismantled at the state and federal levels and we have politicians openly discussing further deregulation of industry. So when you say millions of people are benefitting you'll excuse me if I ask you to define what that means. Incidentally, why do you assume real political reform (or even revolution) requires blowing a bunch of people up?
      - pgodzin 10y ago
        Never said blowing people up, I said blowing the systems up. You don't have to convince me that there are serious systemic issues in this country. However, existing systems have done a lot of good, and need consistent improvements, not a lazy call for revolution without considering who gets affected by it. We passed critical environmental regulations in the first place. Crime rates continue to decrease across the country across generations. Millions of those people in poverty or out of work benefit from the safety net, disabled people are protected, minorities are protected from segregation, public schools and colleges educate millions for free or close to it. All these systems can and should improve. But just throwing out "revolution" doesn't solve any of these problems.

Hey on the bright side it's not like any of our existing socioeconomic systems are great. Last I checked we did not live in a utopia.

by api 10y ago

Hey on the bright side it's not like any of our existing socioeconomic systems are great. Last I checked we did not live in a utopia.

Swizec 10y ago

Not utopia compared to what? My great grandmother had to have 8 kids so that she could have 4 or 5 adult children. That was less than 100 years ago. My grand parents were the children of subsistence farmers without running water or electricity. They went to high school, worked in factories, and could get broadcast TV in their living room. Electricity and running water became a base default. My parents work in an office pushing papers around. Even the society of their youth seems alien in its antiquatedness of both social mores and amenities. I get paid to think things and can reasonably expect to live essentially disease free until my 70's. Achieving 90 in relatively good health and vitality doesn't seem out of the question. Seems pretty utopic to me. What not-utopia are you talking about? EDIT: Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo Over the past 200 years, the difference between 1st world and 3rd world has all but vanished. We still have a ways to go, but no utopia is perfect. Even in the movies.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
Compared to Star Trek. That we are doing better than previous generations only inspires confidence that we could do even better in the future.
knieveltech 10y ago
Sex trafficking, international terrorism, homelessness, racism, crushing poverty, wage theft, mass shootings, income inequality, food deserts...are you for real?
- drcross 10y ago
  Try walking alone unarmed across any city late at night from any era over 100 years ago and you took your life in your hands. Just because mass media is bringing you stories of the miseries of the world does not mean they are more prevalent. The majority of the world has been lifted out of poverty in the past 200 years to something unrecognizable and the pockets of turmoil that still remain will be fixed as time goes on.
  - knieveltech 10y ago
    Delightfully faith-based assertions regarding the future. You'll note we were discussing the near total lack of semblance between modern society and any number of utopian ideals. Apologetics aren't making the comparison any more flattering.
llamataboot 10y ago
and the people that grow your coffee beans? How long do they live for? There is a tension between believing that a rising tide will lift all boats (eventually, someday) and that part of the prosperity of much of the West is directly built upon the back of a system that disenfranchises most of the developing world -- depending upon it for cheap and disposable labor, waste dumping sites, etc.
- Swizec 10y ago
  The people who grow my coffee beans also live much better than they used to. We're enjoying a before unseen period of peace and prosperity. Globally. Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo Over the past 200 years, the difference between 1st world and 3rd world has all but vanished. We still have a ways to go, but no utopia is perfect. Even in the movies.
  - llamataboot 10y ago
    I take your point, and it is one interpretation. There is another interpretation as well. Here, I'll trade you videos. From a now-ethereum venture capitalist, so not just a hippie dippie leftist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkQCy-UrLYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkQCy-UrLYw it's short, ten minutes
andrepd 10y ago
We are better than we were the generation before. Big deal. That's precisely the point: we aren't at the end game, there is still far ahead to push forward to.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>I get paid to think things and can reasonably expect to live essentially disease free until my 70's. Achieving 90 in relatively good health and vitality doesn't seem out of the question. No, you'll probably start suffering from diseases of affluence well below that. Sooner or later, heart disease, lung disease, diabetes, cancer, and pals crop up among basically everyone who doesn't carefully optimize their lifestyle to maximize health. In fact, the same principle applies to most of the rest of your lifestyle: it all seems very nice because you're discounting the incredibly careful and difficult-to-duplicate optimization of everything from personal habits to major life choices. Your entire life (our entire lives, really: it's me too) is essentially golden handcuffs. This is a major step up from handcuffs made of rusty saw-blades that cut and give you tetanus whenever you move, but you're still actually handcuffed.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

pgodzin 10y ago

Sure but the anarchism of blowing up existing systems in hopes of great ones hurts a ton of people in the process with marginal likelihoods of success

knieveltech 10y ago
Whereas desperately clinging to the decaying hulk of existing systems guarantees continued suffering and exploitation with literally no chance of success. So...
- pgodzin 10y ago
  No chance of success? They are by no means perfect, but millions of people in the US alone benefit from our decaying hulks of existing systems. Sure, an ideal system can help millions more or help those millions more, but blowing them up and hoping something better comes out of it leaves millions that rely on them in the cold.
  - knieveltech 10y ago
    Go look at a graph of income inequality over the last 30 years. Reflect on the fact that 30 years ago Detroit was a bustling industrial hub. Contemplate the fact that we have more people in jail in this country than any other country in the world. Child poverty & homelessness are at near-historic levels and rising. Critical environmental regulations are being dismantled at the state and federal levels and we have politicians openly discussing further deregulation of industry. So when you say millions of people are benefitting you'll excuse me if I ask you to define what that means. Incidentally, why do you assume real political reform (or even revolution) requires blowing a bunch of people up?
    - pgodzin 10y ago
      Never said blowing people up, I said blowing the systems up. You don't have to convince me that there are serious systemic issues in this country. However, existing systems have done a lot of good, and need consistent improvements, not a lazy call for revolution without considering who gets affected by it. We passed critical environmental regulations in the first place. Crime rates continue to decrease across the country across generations. Millions of those people in poverty or out of work benefit from the safety net, disabled people are protected, minorities are protected from segregation, public schools and colleges educate millions for free or close to it. All these systems can and should improve. But just throwing out "revolution" doesn't solve any of these problems.