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WTF is wrong with this industry?!? You have 4 months to train for a better job and the best advice is to spend the time studying interview techniques?? I'm no

WTF is wrong with this industry?!? You have 4 months to train for a better job and the best advice is to spend the time studying interview techniques?? I'm not criticizing anyones post here, but the industry in general. That's where we are? Teaching to the test?? I know, I know, "interviewing is broken" and "that's the way the big companies evaluate you" and all.. but geez! Is anyone else bothered by this? Isn't it possible to get a good job at a good company based on your skills & knowledge rather than interview-ability? I can understand an argument of "well, OP wants to get into Google, and this is the best way", but maybe that means that sights are set too high... maybe it should take longer than 4 months to get a job at Google. Am I taking crazy pills?

nostrebored 10y ago
If you think that algorithms and math are not applicable to programming at Amazon, Facebook or Google's scale, you really do not understand the work that they are doing.
- bamboo_7 10y ago
  "If you think that algorithms and math are not applicable to programming at Amazon..." When did I say that??
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    You said that he's studying interview techniques -- he's studying math for cs, basic algorithms, and algorithmic design. He mentioned that whiteboarding has scared him, he did not say that he was studying only to get better at whiteboarding.
    - bamboo_7 10y ago
      My issue was more with the answers given here, not the question asked. When I wrote this comment, the top comment and all of the others recommended studying interview questions, not algorithms and math FOR answering interview questions. That's what bothers me.
      - nostrebored 10y ago
        Gotcha -- when I looked, yours was the top comment. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
- Azkar 10y ago
  Being able to remember and implement those algorithms in under 20 minutes on a white board is not applicable to programming at Amazon, Facebook or Google at scale.
  - pklausler 10y ago
    If an interviewer is just testing your memory of an algorithm, it's a bad interview.
    - Azkar 10y ago
      It sure is, but it still happens a lot.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
And here I thought your second line was going to be along the lines of "why do you think Google, Facebook, and Amazon are solving 'real' problems?" I have encountered that point of view several times "I'm spending all my time writing this stupid app that collects purchase orders from one data base and puts them in a shippers database, I want to solve real problems like putting mustaches on the pictures of all my friends in Facebook!" That is when I have my WTF moment. Airlines desperately need to upgrade their systems, that is a real problem that affects people every day, but who is aspiring to work at the airlines in their IT department?
- asimuvPR 10y ago
  Could the problem be that airlines treat their IT staff like trash? I get why people like Google. They get treated well and have good benefits. I don't see an airline treating much of their workforce as good as Google treats theirs.
  - FuNe 10y ago
    You probably refer to low cost airlines. Things are much different in normal airlines I think.
    - magic_beans 10y ago
      Why would you think that?
    - asimuvPR 10y ago
      Do you have any real world data regarding working conditions in "normal" airlines?
    - ljw1001 10y ago
      A great many "normal" airlines are slowly going broke, or trapped in an endless merger cycle. Not much joy there I think.
    - vldx 10y ago
      I've been working w/ one of the top airline companies in the Middle East for the past year. One of these that are "luxury". I've been on-site in their HQ for 6 months and worked with their IT department. The environment was exactly as the stereotype above. There was not even free coffee for the employees.
35bge57dtjku 10y ago
> Isn't it possible to get a good job at a good company based on your skills & knowledge rather than interview-ability? I did, at Amazon.
- byebyetech 10y ago
  Could you elaborate ?
  - 35bge57dtjku 10y ago
    I didn't do well on a relatively simple question about finding the contiguous elements with the maximum sum in an array. My solution was correct, but not at all the simple, ideal solution. Someone asked me how I'd write/model a simple game like Space Invaders, so I showed him a couple of tiny prototypes I'd written and discussed how the code was organized.
peruvian 10y ago
The interesting thing is how well accepted this is. Go on Reddit's /r/cscareerquestions (a popular forum for programming job help) and you'd get downvoted by people who prefer to have to "study" for the test.
- cbHXBY1D 10y ago
  That subreddit seems to only care about getting hired by Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Microsoft. It's funny because there is so much interesting work being done at smaller startups. If you are a new grad and get hired by one of the above companies, you usually aren't going to be doing the most interesting work. Source: I work for one of those companies.
  - sotojuan 10y ago
    In my experience with those kinda people ("high achieving" students), they just want to work at a big, prestigious company. What they do there isn't that important to them.
    - Karrot_Kream 10y ago
      While there are definitely students pursuing the prestige, I think you're painting this with too wide a brush. The career progression for me and a lot of my friends who were high achieving students was to start out at one of those companies. A lot of us didn't have much money saved up, and didn't come from much money. After building up some money, and realizing the little surface area to work with at one of these companies, we left. Visa issues are also a very real problem that chain a lot of good talent to these corporate juggernauts.
      - sotojuan 10y ago
        Fair point—it just seems that way after spending a lot of time in that sub :-)
        10y ago

nostrebored 10y ago

If you think that algorithms and math are not applicable to programming at Amazon, Facebook or Google's scale, you really do not understand the work that they are doing.

bamboo_7 10y ago
"If you think that algorithms and math are not applicable to programming at Amazon..." When did I say that??
- nostrebored 10y ago
  You said that he's studying interview techniques -- he's studying math for cs, basic algorithms, and algorithmic design. He mentioned that whiteboarding has scared him, he did not say that he was studying only to get better at whiteboarding.
  - bamboo_7 10y ago
    My issue was more with the answers given here, not the question asked. When I wrote this comment, the top comment and all of the others recommended studying interview questions, not algorithms and math FOR answering interview questions. That's what bothers me.
    - nostrebored 10y ago
      Gotcha -- when I looked, yours was the top comment. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Azkar 10y ago
Being able to remember and implement those algorithms in under 20 minutes on a white board is not applicable to programming at Amazon, Facebook or Google at scale.
- pklausler 10y ago
  If an interviewer is just testing your memory of an algorithm, it's a bad interview.
  - Azkar 10y ago
    It sure is, but it still happens a lot.

ChuckMcM 10y ago

And here I thought your second line was going to be along the lines of "why do you think Google, Facebook, and Amazon are solving 'real' problems?" I have encountered that point of view several times "I'm spending all my time writing this stupid app that collects purchase orders from one data base and puts them in a shippers database, I want to solve real problems like putting mustaches on the pictures of all my friends in Facebook!" That is when I have my WTF moment. Airlines desperately need to upgrade their systems, that is a real problem that affects people every day, but who is aspiring to work at the airlines in their IT department?

asimuvPR 10y ago
Could the problem be that airlines treat their IT staff like trash? I get why people like Google. They get treated well and have good benefits. I don't see an airline treating much of their workforce as good as Google treats theirs.
- FuNe 10y ago
  You probably refer to low cost airlines. Things are much different in normal airlines I think.
  - magic_beans 10y ago
    Why would you think that?
  - asimuvPR 10y ago
    Do you have any real world data regarding working conditions in "normal" airlines?
  - ljw1001 10y ago
    A great many "normal" airlines are slowly going broke, or trapped in an endless merger cycle. Not much joy there I think.
  - vldx 10y ago
    I've been working w/ one of the top airline companies in the Middle East for the past year. One of these that are "luxury". I've been on-site in their HQ for 6 months and worked with their IT department. The environment was exactly as the stereotype above. There was not even free coffee for the employees.

35bge57dtjku 10y ago

> Isn't it possible to get a good job at a good company based on your skills & knowledge rather than interview-ability? I did, at Amazon.

byebyetech 10y ago
Could you elaborate ?
- 35bge57dtjku 10y ago
  I didn't do well on a relatively simple question about finding the contiguous elements with the maximum sum in an array. My solution was correct, but not at all the simple, ideal solution. Someone asked me how I'd write/model a simple game like Space Invaders, so I showed him a couple of tiny prototypes I'd written and discussed how the code was organized.

peruvian 10y ago

The interesting thing is how well accepted this is. Go on Reddit's /r/cscareerquestions (a popular forum for programming job help) and you'd get downvoted by people who prefer to have to "study" for the test.

cbHXBY1D 10y ago
That subreddit seems to only care about getting hired by Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Microsoft. It's funny because there is so much interesting work being done at smaller startups. If you are a new grad and get hired by one of the above companies, you usually aren't going to be doing the most interesting work. Source: I work for one of those companies.
- sotojuan 10y ago
  In my experience with those kinda people ("high achieving" students), they just want to work at a big, prestigious company. What they do there isn't that important to them.
  - Karrot_Kream 10y ago
    While there are definitely students pursuing the prestige, I think you're painting this with too wide a brush. The career progression for me and a lot of my friends who were high achieving students was to start out at one of those companies. A lot of us didn't have much money saved up, and didn't come from much money. After building up some money, and realizing the little surface area to work with at one of these companies, we left. Visa issues are also a very real problem that chain a lot of good talent to these corporate juggernauts.
    - sotojuan 10y ago
      Fair point—it just seems that way after spending a lot of time in that sub :-)
      - 10y ago