6 ms·

I think there's truth here, but I also think programmers routinely underestimate the quality and compensation of other careers that they think are "below" them.

by nilkn 10y ago

I think there's truth here, but I also think programmers routinely underestimate the quality and compensation of other careers that they think are "below" them. For instance, you did it in this very post. Do you really think that all high school teachers are locked into making $40k for life? Here where I live (a large city, but also a pretty affordable one), teachers start at ~$55k in base salary, get a whole range of benefits including a pension plan, actually really do have the summers off (plus numerous other breaks), and leave work at 3:20 PM every day. If you were to have them work year-round and go home at 6-7PM and convert the pension plan into salary, the salary would easily exceed that of most entry-level engineers across all disciplines in the area. When I graduated college, I had engineering friends being offered salaries in the $60-70k range for considerably less stable jobs, much longer hours, virtually no time off, and much fewer benefits.

ditonal 10y ago
Especially true for nurses. Very tough job, but there's more money in it than many realize. My friend who already does well for himself is now going to do 1 more year of school to get a CRNA and says he'll likely make 160k in Miami or 220k in SF. Yet a co-worker asked "how can nurses survive here?" SF nurse salaries are public and you can see they can out earn most engineers esp via overtime (which lots of engineers work uncompensated). Still, nursing is a very tough job and can have a low status stigma.
- nilkn 10y ago
  My mother's actually a nurse, and it's been a really great career choice for her, especially as she's aged. Over the last five years or so my parents have had to move several times due to volatility in my dad's career. And yet at every move my mom hasn't had any trouble finding stable and well-paid employment as a nurse. Nursing is similar to teaching in that you're not likely to get rich off of it, and it's not even an easy job at all, but it is a very stable one which pays a solid middle-class wage for life in pretty much any area of the country, from huge cities to small rural towns in the midwest. And, while the hours are rough as a new nurse fresh out of school, they're not bad at all with experience -- certainly it's a far more family friendly career than many others in healthcare, like being a physician. If my mom had been a programmer, she definitely wouldn't have weathered the moves they've made as well as she has. In fact, she'd have been the one forcing my dad to move with her, as decent programming jobs simply do not exist where they live.
colanderman 10y ago
To be fair, no teacher I have ever known has stopped working at 3:20 PM. Grading and planning often go far into the evening.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  Additionally, no teacher I have ever known has had the summer off. Summer is when they do catch-up work, lesson planning, etc., the technical debt payback of the teaching world. (source: three parents/step-parents were school teachers)
  - LanceH 10y ago
    To be fair, no teacher I've ever known as received only 10 day vacation and 10 holidays. They have over 20 days of holidays built in during the school year and a legitimate two months off between years.
    - fencepost 10y ago
      No, they have 2 months between school years in which they are not at the front of a classroom. For a lot of teachers that's time used for continuing education, for prep for the upcoming school year, etc. - or for a summer job.
      - sokoloff 10y ago
        Both my parents were teachers. While there was some summer work, in no way was it nearly as intense as the school year. The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO.
        Xylakant 10y ago
        > The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO. Or it's a proof that they need the money.
notsurprised 10y ago
This is dumb, you're dumb.
- sctb 10y ago
  Please don't do this here. We ban accounts that violate the guidelines with comments like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
sethammons 10y ago
Annecdata: as a teacher in an inner city high school, I did not break past 50k/year for the three years I was there. That includes the summers I worked. Between grading, lesson planning, meetings, and teaching, my typical week day started before 7am, ended around 8pm or later. Typically most of my Saturday was used up and half my Sunday. Normally all of spring and winter break was used up likewise. I typically got close to a week off in summer. As a developer, I started at nearly 2x what I made as a teacher. After getting real experience, I make more than most administrators and more than any teacher could after a lifetime of service. I have multiple weeks of paid vacation. Aside from a (weak) pension, my benefits are better. My work only follows me home when I am behind schedule (not often) or when there is an outage (a bit cyclical). My quality of life is so vastly better. Another benefit, I now get to work with motivated and smart individuals.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- kbenson 10y ago
  It's my understanding, from an ex-gf in college who was going through the teaching credential program at the time and had a mother that was a teacher, that there's a lot of work loaded on teachers inthe beginning, as they need to develop lesson plans for everything from scratch (where "develop" may mean find and adapt in some cases). Then, after a couple years it's settles into a normal churn of updating or replacing a much smaller portion of lesson plans as you go, and the rest of the time is the normal grading work. That said, I'm not sure I've ever met a teacher who takes off at 3:20 every day. I imagine it probably averages out to around an hour before and after school, so 7 AM to 4 PM? But there's often grading that happens at home throughout the week. I wouldn't be surprised to see veteran teachers averaging 44-50 hours a week of actual work for the year (with lulls and spikes for midterms/finalls, etc).
- r_smart 10y ago
  Teachers make less to start as a result of the unions. The people running the union are later in their careers so the increased wages tend to accumulate to more senior positions. At least, that's how it's going for my friend who is a teacher. Once you put in the time it pretty much turns into one of the most comfortable jobs you can get between decent compensation, lots of time off, good benefits.
dragonwriter 10y ago
They may leave at 3:20, but that doesn't mean they are done working. Teachers do lots of work -- lesson planning, grading, etc. -- out of the classroom and outside of "working" hours. Not to mention the money they spend on basic supplies for their job that aren't provided by their employer -- or the time they sirens trying to solicit other people to find that.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- fma 10y ago
  Comments like the parent is why our teachers are undervalued. In my younger years, my roommate was a high school math teacher. And the soccer coach. He traveled a lot with the team and drove the bus, stayed late for practices, went in early to to supervise for safety...At nights when he comes home, he comes home tired, passes out, wakes up and grades papers.
flexie 10y ago
Not all, but the one in my example did, and many do: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/... I am sure that by getting a master's degree, teaching in private schools, being in certain states or cities, teaching classes that are in great demand, etc., teachers can reach higher salaries. But I think we can agree that by becoming teachers in the first place, they pretty much accepted the risk of never earning much. Likewise, not all programmers in start-ups earn 40k, which is what the example was about.
therealdrag0 10y ago
Similarly, I thought I was rolling in the dough starting out at 65k as a developer right out of a 4 yr degree. Then I met an old friend in the same city who, after a couple years as an apprentice in a rural town, at 21y/o he's now making six figures as a plumber in the city/burbs.

by nilkn 10y ago

ditonal 10y ago

Especially true for nurses. Very tough job, but there's more money in it than many realize. My friend who already does well for himself is now going to do 1 more year of school to get a CRNA and says he'll likely make 160k in Miami or 220k in SF. Yet a co-worker asked "how can nurses survive here?" SF nurse salaries are public and you can see they can out earn most engineers esp via overtime (which lots of engineers work uncompensated). Still, nursing is a very tough job and can have a low status stigma.

nilkn 10y ago
My mother's actually a nurse, and it's been a really great career choice for her, especially as she's aged. Over the last five years or so my parents have had to move several times due to volatility in my dad's career. And yet at every move my mom hasn't had any trouble finding stable and well-paid employment as a nurse. Nursing is similar to teaching in that you're not likely to get rich off of it, and it's not even an easy job at all, but it is a very stable one which pays a solid middle-class wage for life in pretty much any area of the country, from huge cities to small rural towns in the midwest. And, while the hours are rough as a new nurse fresh out of school, they're not bad at all with experience -- certainly it's a far more family friendly career than many others in healthcare, like being a physician. If my mom had been a programmer, she definitely wouldn't have weathered the moves they've made as well as she has. In fact, she'd have been the one forcing my dad to move with her, as decent programming jobs simply do not exist where they live.

colanderman 10y ago

To be fair, no teacher I have ever known has stopped working at 3:20 PM. Grading and planning often go far into the evening.

ryandrake 10y ago
Additionally, no teacher I have ever known has had the summer off. Summer is when they do catch-up work, lesson planning, etc., the technical debt payback of the teaching world. (source: three parents/step-parents were school teachers)
- LanceH 10y ago
  To be fair, no teacher I've ever known as received only 10 day vacation and 10 holidays. They have over 20 days of holidays built in during the school year and a legitimate two months off between years.
  - fencepost 10y ago
    No, they have 2 months between school years in which they are not at the front of a classroom. For a lot of teachers that's time used for continuing education, for prep for the upcoming school year, etc. - or for a summer job.
    - sokoloff 10y ago
      Both my parents were teachers. While there was some summer work, in no way was it nearly as intense as the school year. The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO.
      - Xylakant 10y ago
        > The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO. Or it's a proof that they need the money.

notsurprised 10y ago

This is dumb, you're dumb.

sctb 10y ago
Please don't do this here. We ban accounts that violate the guidelines with comments like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

sethammons 10y ago

Annecdata: as a teacher in an inner city high school, I did not break past 50k/year for the three years I was there. That includes the summers I worked. Between grading, lesson planning, meetings, and teaching, my typical week day started before 7am, ended around 8pm or later. Typically most of my Saturday was used up and half my Sunday. Normally all of spring and winter break was used up likewise. I typically got close to a week off in summer. As a developer, I started at nearly 2x what I made as a teacher. After getting real experience, I make more than most administrators and more than any teacher could after a lifetime of service. I have multiple weeks of paid vacation. Aside from a (weak) pension, my benefits are better. My work only follows me home when I am behind schedule (not often) or when there is an outage (a bit cyclical). My quality of life is so vastly better. Another benefit, I now get to work with motivated and smart individuals.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
kbenson 10y ago
It's my understanding, from an ex-gf in college who was going through the teaching credential program at the time and had a mother that was a teacher, that there's a lot of work loaded on teachers inthe beginning, as they need to develop lesson plans for everything from scratch (where "develop" may mean find and adapt in some cases). Then, after a couple years it's settles into a normal churn of updating or replacing a much smaller portion of lesson plans as you go, and the rest of the time is the normal grading work. That said, I'm not sure I've ever met a teacher who takes off at 3:20 every day. I imagine it probably averages out to around an hour before and after school, so 7 AM to 4 PM? But there's often grading that happens at home throughout the week. I wouldn't be surprised to see veteran teachers averaging 44-50 hours a week of actual work for the year (with lulls and spikes for midterms/finalls, etc).
r_smart 10y ago
Teachers make less to start as a result of the unions. The people running the union are later in their careers so the increased wages tend to accumulate to more senior positions. At least, that's how it's going for my friend who is a teacher. Once you put in the time it pretty much turns into one of the most comfortable jobs you can get between decent compensation, lots of time off, good benefits.

dragonwriter 10y ago

They may leave at 3:20, but that doesn't mean they are done working. Teachers do lots of work -- lesson planning, grading, etc. -- out of the classroom and outside of "working" hours. Not to mention the money they spend on basic supplies for their job that aren't provided by their employer -- or the time they sirens trying to solicit other people to find that.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
fma 10y ago
Comments like the parent is why our teachers are undervalued. In my younger years, my roommate was a high school math teacher. And the soccer coach. He traveled a lot with the team and drove the bus, stayed late for practices, went in early to to supervise for safety...At nights when he comes home, he comes home tired, passes out, wakes up and grades papers.

flexie 10y ago

Not all, but the one in my example did, and many do: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/... I am sure that by getting a master's degree, teaching in private schools, being in certain states or cities, teaching classes that are in great demand, etc., teachers can reach higher salaries. But I think we can agree that by becoming teachers in the first place, they pretty much accepted the risk of never earning much. Likewise, not all programmers in start-ups earn 40k, which is what the example was about.

therealdrag0 10y ago

Similarly, I thought I was rolling in the dough starting out at 65k as a developer right out of a 4 yr degree. Then I met an old friend in the same city who, after a couple years as an apprentice in a rural town, at 21y/o he's now making six figures as a plumber in the city/burbs.