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Research indicates that only about half of perceived friendships are mutual
- nickbauman 10y agoThis is a generalization. In Europe, people seem to try harder at friendships. They consider it almost duty to be a good friend to someone. In the US, people are more likely to consider only the "fun" aspect of friendship. If someone is having a tough time, they commensurately go down in the esteem meter.
- reifnir 10y agoThis comment is a generalization
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- whatever_dude 10y agoI had the exact opposite experience.
- stuxnet79 10y agoThis is an anecdote but it fits what I've observed over the years. Most of the really good friends that I have (white) are recent immigrants from Europe. North Americans tend to be more individualistic and this colors their interactions with others. Basically with Europeans, I tend to feel less like I'm being used or that I'm stuck in a quid-pro-quo situation.
- drzaiusapelord 10y agoIts amusing that you think "Europe" is one single culture. Do you really think a Finnish person and a French person are that much alike? Or even a Greek and an Italian? Or that the US is a monoculture. Does a rural Texan have a lot in common with a Manhattanite? Or a Chicagoan with a Peorian? I think HN loves anti-US anecdotes, but this is weak sauce even by our low standards.
- nickbauman 10y agoFair complaint. My experience is limited to Britain, Germany, Holland, Austria, Spain, Italy and France.
- randyrand 10y agoYour experience in each of those countries is limited too.
- andrewclunn 10y agoWell according to this article, now that I've moved, all my friends will inevitably become acquaintances. Of course making new true friends is much harder when you're older. Wow, depressing.
- cableshaft 10y agoIt's at least true for me. For example, I had someone that was probably my best friend that I hung out with at least once a week when he lived near me, and after he moved away, I'd like his Facebook posts but almost never reach out to talk to him. Except when he comes back into town, then I make a point to be available and we catch up. I also might go visit him next year sometime. But yeah, I haven't spoken to him in at least six months. And now I have other friends nearby that I care about more and make an effort to hang out with on a regular basis. And for that reason (amongst others), I am very hesitant to move away from this place, even though there are better job opportunities elsewhere in the country. I'm friends with quite a few people here, and I know I won't maintain those friendships hardly at all once I move away.
- nxc18 10y agoIt is true. When you move, you will lose all your friendships and life will be difficult for a while. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. You can always make new friends, and if you put in the effort, you will. The whole nonsense about true friends is kind of silly. Friendship is 95% proximity and 5% compatibility. You can get that anywhere and the history of your friendships really doesn't add value. This is a classic case of the sunk cost fallacy that a lot of people fall into. You've got to do what's best for yourself in the long run, excluding your sunk costs (in this case, time building relationships). Imagine how silly you'll feel if all your friends move away and you waited around for nothing.
- cableshaft 10y agoI'm pretty introverted by nature, and it took a concerted effort of me going to pretty much every meetup I could in the area over a period of two years to build up the social network I have in the area. Could I do it from scratch again? Sure, and perhaps I will in a year or two, especially now that I've found a significant other that fits into my life so well. But I really like the geography of where I live, the people where I live, the culture in close proximity to where I live, and I have job with a good dev culture that pays a respectable amount for the region and looks good on a resume, so I'm not exactly in a hurry to leave quite yet. I'm not waiting for my friends. The pasture is pretty green where I'm at, and I'm not entirely convinced the pasture is just as green on the other side of the fence, even if it might pay more.
- mvid 10y agoThis applies here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
- ar4s 10y agoNegative
- jcadam 10y agoAs I get older I find I care less and less about whether or not others like me. Now, respect is another matter. If I had to choose, I'd rather be respected than loved.
- koolba 10y ago> As I get older I find I care less and less about whether or not others like me. I came to that conclusion around 13 or 14. It's been a very pleasant and if I had to put it one way or the other, I'd say most people do like me. > Now, respect is another matter. If I had to choose, I'd rather be respected than loved. Love is good, respect is great, but fear is the one that gets results!
- hueving 10y agoFear only gets results if you have people in a position where they can't leave.
- Noseshine 10y agoWelcome to current capitalism where leaving a job is something only few can afford to do safely because there is no shortage of worker bees on almost all levels. It's one of my main arguments that the current system doesn't work because it doesn't allow these kinds of adjustments. Most people are stuck with bad bosses and bad organizations, or the best they can hope for is going to another equally dysfunctional one (lemon market, sort of). It should not just be customers who can let a business fail, employees should have that option too (by leaving). Customers decide about products - but employees decide about work place culture. We have a mostly working mechanism only for the first.
- zeroer 10y agoDo you know where you're posting?
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
- mobiuscog 10y agoFriends ?
- SixSigma 10y agoDo I Actually Care If My Friends Like Me? I mean, there's plenty about my friends I actively dislike but we have more binding us together than tearing us apart.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- ChrisBanner 10y agoThe article refers to Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" in conjunction with "strategic and propagandist" friendships. The book is often referenced in this manner but it's important to note that Carnegie emphasizes one's approach to friendship must be genuine -- anything less rings hollow and is easily spotted as fraud.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- rorykoehler 10y agoHaving read Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" recently, long after I had heard of people recommending it left, right and centre I came to the conclusion that the book says more about the person who reads it and finds it revelatory than it does about society itself. If you believe the world works as the book lays out, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- stuxnet79 10y ago> "How to Win Friends and Influence People" recently, long after I had heard of people recommending it left, right and centre I came to the conclusion that the book says more about the person who reads it Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I have never read the book mainly because I remember one time in high school, I saw the guy sitting next to me in math class flipping through it. We had just started the class and we were still trying to figure each other out and befriend each other at the time. I sort of lost respect for him after seeing him flipping through the book. The title always suggested to me that it was filled with manipulative tactics to get people to do what you want. No thanks.
- seren 10y agoThe summary of the book could be : if you want to make friends, first, be interested and friendly to people around you. But the book tells you explicitly to not fake it because it would not work anyway. Despite the title, the book is actually not manipulative at all. It is actually quite funny and old-fashioned because most business examples are coming from the 30's or 40's. ("Mr Smith from the typewriter company...")
- helthanatos 10y agoAnyone I know, I usually refer to them as a "friend" in conversation, whether they are or not. The word "friend" does not mean much to me, considering I'm invariably stabbed in the back if someone becomes "good friends."
- magic_beans 10y agoWhat do you mean by "stabbed in the back"? Just out of curiosity... How could it have happened so many times?
- antisthenes 10y agoI think that tells you a lot more about helthanatos than about his 'back-stabbing' 'friends'.
- helthanatos 10y agoWell, it could... It could also tell you about environment and people in general.
- joestr87 10y ago"By his definition, friends are people you take the time to understand and allow to understand you.” TIL I literally have no friends.
- krick 10y agoMaybe it's a cliché, but it really seems to me rarely somebody does. Not "mature and adult" people anyway. Except for spouse, maybe. Maybe. Why? Well, understanding implies there is something to understand, that implies feelings, generally. Big thoughts, sincere troubles. And "mature and adult" people are not about feelings, they are about business. They don't show their feelings and don't put their nose into others'. Especially in western, "civilized" countries: you are supposed to smile, you are supposed to be happy…ish. Everybody knows that "we don't need toxic people in our company", right? If you don't sport bright fake smile that's already "gloom", maybe impolitely so. And now, with facebook and stuff everybody you need to speak occasionally to is a "friend". And I don't really mean it in a bad way (well, maybe a little I do): "friend" is just a word, it means what people mean by it, not what some psychologist (or even a dictionary) defines it to be. So maybe you just need to use another word to suit this definition. I mean, if you say you don't have a "soulmate" it doesn't sound as surprising, right? Maybe sad, but not surprising, really.
- pepy 10y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12243680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12243680 posted it last night, good to see it caught some traction.
- gpvos 10y agoI was there before you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12241212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12241212 , but no need to brag. Happy to see it discussed anyway.
- Spooky23 10y agoThe article dances around, but doesn't really say that people define friendship differently and segment their lives differently. I have professional colleagues whom I consider good friends where we've established level of mutual trust, but our "closeness" is defined by what/where we're going things -- we have a level of trust that is very meaningful, but we mutually "pop" up/down to a higher/lower levels of friendship.
- rebeccaskinner 10y agoI learned this the hard way not too long ago when someone informed me that a number of people I'd worked with who I'd thought of as friends just really disliked me. It hit hard at first because I thought of them as friends- 'work friends' at the very least, and made me start questioning other people that I thought of as friends. After letting my mind spin in a tight loop about it for a while I decided that really it doesn't matter that much, because I'm happier liking people, and I can like someone and be friendly even irrespective of if they like me or not. Of course I'm not going to push my company on people who are clear that they don't want it, but it doesn't really do any good to second guess who actually cares for me and who is being polite.
- mathattack 10y agoWhen there's an economic advantage to be gained, people at work can be fake. You can either get bummed out about that, or accept it as their issue and not yours. I found that if I treat people like friends (and having good intent) it usually works out for the best, though I've been backstabbed here and there.
- woliveirajr 10y agoAnd when you're backstabbed some times, you can choose to get less and less receptive, ore simple develop your resilience. In the long run people will know that you're agood worker.
- drzaiusapelord 10y agoThis happened to me. I think on some intellectual level I understood that work friendship wasn't terribly authentic and based on the politics of getting ahead. Then I was on the receiving end of some very dishonest politics and it really opened my eyes on how terrible some/many of the people here are and people I've had unbelievably good relationships with will turn on you in a very aggressive manner instantly if they think picking the other side will gain them more benefits. Fairness, truth, etc didn't matter to them. Holy cow, I just couldn't believe it. Ironically, this has made me appreciate the people who are openly jerky at work. At least they're open with the biases. There's probably something to be said about white collar workplace culture's default of "aren't we all just friends and teammates?" It seems to empower only the worst political players. At this point, I'd probably rather work with a bunch of jerks who are open with their biases than a bunch of 'office friendly' people who are only friendly because it serves them. There's a certain level of honesty with the jerks. I also see this in myself. I've learned how to play up false modesty and the whole "Aren't we just pals" attitude, and I don't like it now that I'm self-aware of it. I don't know if I'm ready to become an full-on office jerk, but I'm probably half-way there now and life seems a lot easier when you're more open with your biases and honestly accept that most of your coworkers are adversaries, not teammates. I'm sure I'm more disliked, but disliked by people who would just turn on me anyway if push came to shove. I also invest much less mental energy into trying to be everyone's buddy and instead focus that on the work itself, anti-burn out strategies, leisure time, my creative projects, planning my next career move, etc. I used to laugh at the grumpy gray-beards in IT. Now I see where they are coming from. The sooner the automation/robot revolution comes the better. Work is a zero-sum game that best serves the extremely dishonest. I don't know why we're so worried about moving into a post-work and post-scarcity society. The status quo is pretty terrible if we're being honest about it.
- matwood 10y agoI'm old enough now to know what I do to annoy other people. I actively work on those things, so people who _are_ around me at least do not want to run away :) I'm also old enough not to care if someone does not like me. Life is too short to be fake friendly, and some people just do not get along. I'm okay with that.
- ysavir 10y agoI usually have the opposite problem: I'll consider myself a friend of a person, but that person thinks I don't like them. A common side effect of being factual/honest, unfortunately.
- basicplus2 10y agoI thought you said your friend liked you? that.. is not.. my friend!
- glenjamin 10y agoThe article cites a study from a business management class of 84 people. That seems like quite a small sample, and I wouldn't expect business management students to be representative of the population as a whole. It might still be true, but it's probably a bit early to write off all of your perceived friends as shallow fakes.
- redleggedfrog 10y agoNot being a troll, but I'd probably have a tough time finding friends in a business management class anyway, so I don't really find this that surprising.
- Bartweiss 10y agoThis definitely seems like another edition of "researcher generalizes from handful of white college students to entire country". If you asked me to name a group with the largest percentage of fake friendships, "college business management class" would be right up there with "popular clique in high school". So the topic is worth talking about, but I'll bet the number is skewed way to the high end.
- oldmanjay 10y agoIt's important to note that your biases certainly don't lend your conclusions any more credence than you're willing to give the article
- Bartweiss 10y agoNo, but I'm not actually objecting to the business management class in particular (that's just a guess). I'm objecting to yet another popular article that treats a narrow study of a non-standard sample like it's ground truth. Generalizing from classmates to friend groups (which are more elective and full of closure/network effects) is totally unsupported, and while that doesn't invalidate the study it certainly cripples the article.
- StavrosK 10y ago
- michael_h 10y ago> The study analyzed friendship ties among 84 subjects (ages 23 to 38) in a business management class I guess we had better draw some general conclusions from such a robust sample then, shall we?
- DelaneyM 10y agoPerhaps social networking has changed how we define "friend", and some are adopting the new definition faster than others? I have many connections, but very few real friends. I'm totally fulfilled by that though, and can't imagine having enough time (or the desire) to nurture more friendships. But when everyone has 500+ "friends" on Facebook, does 5 no longer seem like a large enough number to tell a researcher? I also don't have any social networking accounts (besides LinkedIn), neither do my "real" friends. This could be because our anti-social(-network) temperaments are a part of what draws us together, but it could also mean that social(-network) butterflies are spreading themselves too thin to keep up with their expanded group of acquaintances. Eh, anecdata, take it for what it is.
- tibarun 10y ago"...analyzed friendship ties among 84 subjects (ages 23 to 38) in a BUSINESS MANAGEMENT CLASS..." Maybe if the study subjects came from some other "class", the results might have been different. Maybe the average person who enrolls in a "business management class" has a different mindset and/or the habit of concealing the way s/he feels towards others.
- 33a 10y agoGreat, yet another thing to be anxious about on this fine monday morning.
- sabret00the 10y agoWhy is this on HN?
- ionised 10y agoWhy shouldn't it be?
- pasbesoin 10y agoNavigating social environments has been one of the hardest "problems" I've faced, in life. Tech is easy, by comparison. A big part of that problem was not being taught, and demonstrated, as a child, how such things work. My family was very disfunctional. I suspect I'm not the only one, here... And, it has direct bearing on my intellectual and technical performance. When I'm not happy, and not social, I'm not much of anything... including in those spheres. YMMV
- slantaclaus 10y agoReworded study findings: half of all people are assholes.
- nathan_long 10y ago> “There is a limited amount of time and emotional capital we can distribute, so we only have five slots for the most intense type of relationship,” Mr. Dunbar said. “People may say they have more than five but you can be pretty sure they are not high-quality friendships.” This was the part I found most interesting. They describe people you're in touch with daily or weekly as being in the "close friends" category. Personally, I'm fortunate to have deep, meaningful, long-term friendships with my wife and one other friend, and a few other friends and family members I consider close even if we talk something more like "every couple months" - when we do, it's about important stuff. We freely say that we love each other, we hug, and I feel more relaxed and happy around them. I'm tempted by stuff like being liked on social media, but when I think about it, it's pretty meaningless compared to these few relationships. Given X hours for maintaining friendships, I'd rather have fewer and better.
- musha68k 10y agoYou can be good friends with more than five people - I wonder if they ever heard of the concept of "quality time".. The problem to me seems to be Facebook's pervasive "friend" lingo (certainly not true in most cases) and a heavy cultural bias in that article.
- Bartweiss 10y agoI think the issue may be that "good friends" and "most intense friendship" are very different entities. I'm sure I don't have more than five of the "most intense" sort of friends, but there are a lot more people than that who I care deeply about. Relationships that are very close when 'active' are presumably a different category - I think most of us have old friends and family who we feel strong connections to, but don't actually talk to on a daily or weekly basis. Time places hard limits on how many people we see frequently and at length, but frequency and quality are fairly independent axes. I'm assuming "most intense" requires a high score on both.
- hackity 10y agoSounds like what actually happened was that you friend-zoned them. They loved you, but you didn't reciprocate. Then they hated you. Discovering that, they hurt you. However, you, in turn, just friend-zoned them even more. Savage.
- throwanem 10y agoSounds like somebody needs to spend less time on r/redpill, maybe.
- hackity 10y agoThe author and the reader chose divergent tones.
- PhasmaFelis 10y agoHuh? You're implying that the OP's work friend(s) were romantically attracted to them, and then secretly turned against them because they didn't notice and reciprocate? Why would you assume something so convoluted on so little evidence? ...Oh. Because the OP has a female user name, and that's all the evidence you need. Classy.
- hackity 10y agoI was sarcastically implying she was juxtaposing a high level of kindhearted sincerity in a Machiavellian manner, while those who hated her embodied disreputable traits. However I was only so thoughtful to her, because of the user's female username.
- PhasmaFelis 10y agoIf my sarcasmometer is calibrated correctly, I believe you've run afoul of Poe's Law.
- sctb 10y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12247574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12247574 and marked it off-topic.
- jksmith 10y agoTake a guess at romantic relationships by type. Higher? Lower? About the same?
- cbanek 10y agoThis all finally makes sense. So many times I've heard that you're the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with, but then if you suck and go hang out with 5 awesome people all the time, don't you bring down their average? Unless there's some kind of friendship time ponzi scheme where you can spend little time but still be top 5...
- nostrademons 10y ago"Suck" isn't a single dimension. Usually in groups of friends, you end up sucking in a dimension that those friends don't care about, while bringing something to the group that they do.
- justinlardinois 10y agoReposted from a different thread on this article: Ugh, this headline asks a question that's not very fun to ponder. Especially considering Betteridge's law [1]. When it comes to male friends, I think part of the problem is that men—especially straight men—are bad at/afraid of expressing intimacy in platonic contexts, probably because of social conditioning and subconscious homophobia. When I thought about the answer to the headline's question for my friends, the only "I don't know"s were men. My female friends have made it clear that they value my friendship; most of my male friends haven't, and I think I'm bad at expressing that to anyone of any gender. Of course, maybe I'm just overgeneralizing my own experiences and/or my female friends are just better friends than my male friends. Either way, good article. A lot of the not-news NYT stuff that gets posted on HN is crap, to be honest. This one really got me thinking and got me to churn out something wayyy more personal than I'd normally ever post here. > Others point to a misunderstanding of the very notion of friendship in an age when “friend” is used as a verb, and social inclusion and exclusion are as easy as a swipe or a tap on a smartphone screen. I realize it's just fluff for the intro of the article, but this is typical kids-today-and-their-loud-music-get-off-my-lawn garbage. Social media does in general make people more aware of more people's lives, but I doubt anyone actually believes that every single one of their Facebook friends is actually their friend. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
- booleandilemma 10y agoNothing so fortifies a friendship as a belief on the part of one friend that he is superior to the other. Honoré de Balzac
- BrandoElFollito 10y agoThe size of the layers described in the article seems correct. The contact frequency as a measure of said friendship is not. My closest friend lives 1800 km away, we are in touch 5 times a year at most and still enjoy it very much, always looking forward to it.