9 ms·
Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Says FCC Official
- rhino369 10y agoI wouldn't mind if the state was collecting the money. Prison is a punishment and you shouldn't be able to just chit chat all day. However, letting two private companies cash in is corruption.
- kalleboo 10y ago> Prison is a punishment In some other countries prison is seen as a place for rehabilitation or at worst a way to protect the public from unstable individuals.
- leesalminen 10y agoExactly. It should be this way in USA as well. It sickens me how people shrug off any problems at correctional facilities as "it's punishment". We're only creating more problems for society with that thought process.
- shawn-butler 10y agoNothing is ever that simple as the people of Norway are finding with Anders Behring Breivik who as far as I can tell has converted to Nazism and is getting a bachelor's degree in political science from University of Oslo after murdering 70 people. As I recall a couple years ago he made public complaints that the prison had not yet given him a PlayStation 3 to replace his current PlayStation 2, because it offers more suitable games to his playing style. Probably has it now. Punishment should fit the crime is the model in the US but since the 90s ever since sentencing became a political football that model has broken down. I find that rehabilitation is a word that comes easy to people who have never been victims of an actual crime. Prison time should never be population control/engineering but it should be a deterrent.
- c0nducktr 10y agoDo you feel that Anders Breivik would not have murdered those children if the Norwegian prison system was more punitive?
- shawn-butler 10y agoI believe he is beyond rehabilitation.
- tamana 10y agoThat wasn't the question.
- shawn-butler 10y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_conditional https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_conditional Some people believe they help people imagine creative solutions. I find counterfactuals, especially in history, to be devoid of any meaning and used by pseudo-intellectuals who don't really want to pursue the hard work of finding actual causality.
- yongjik 10y agoHuh? Actual causality is meaningless without counterfactuals. "Hitler caused Holocaust" means that if Hitler wasn't there, Holocaust wouldn't have happened.
- shawn-butler 10y agoNot really but sort of. Counterfactual historiography at best represents a sort of "reproducibility" for historians. They can't conduct experiments on the past. So, when someone asserts "Hitler caused Holocaust" some enterprising graduate student comes along and writes a thesis on Hitler's willing executioners and argues counterfactually that if Hitler wasn't there, Holocaust still happens. That doesn't mean at all that Hitler did not cause Holocaust or that the "eliminationist antisemitism" German culture caused Holocaust. I wish you had chose a less value-laden example.
- rayiner 10y agoI think prison should be for rehabilitation, but I think it's a bigger departure from how we do things than you appreciate. For example, should a woman who kills her abusive husband be imprisoned? From a purely rehabilitative point of view, the answer is no. There is zero risk of recidivism there. But even most people who think prison should be about rehabilitation probably have trouble with the idea that someone should simply go free under those circumstances. I.e. they believe that prison should be at least a little bit about punishment.
- jacquesm 10y ago> But even most people who think prison should be about rehabilitation probably have trouble with the idea that someone should simply go free under those circumstances. Not in my experience. But that's just an anecdote and no doubt there is a lot of data backing your assertion. I also suspect that this is different for different countries.
- int_19h 10y agoIt's interesting to put this in historical context. Until about two centuries ago, it was not all that common to imprison people as a punishment. It was mainly used to confine those awaiting trial, and to induce compliance (contempt of court, debtor prisons etc). Being convicted of an actual crime generally warranted some form or combination of fines, public shaming, corporal punishment, banishment, or execution. Then, during the 17th century, the society had started to increasingly reject torture in general, and death penalty for relatively minor crimes (theft etc). Conveniently, that's also when European countries acquired sparsely populated lands that they wanted to settle ASAP, and so penal colonies were born, and replaced a significant chunk of previous death penalty convictions. That system eventually inspired the creation of proper prisons as we know them today. Ironically, if you read about the prominent people behind the movement that made it happen, most of them subscribed to "prison as repentance" theory, rather than punishment. It's why it was seen as so progressive and radical for its day. We all know how well that worked out.
- IvyMike 10y agoFrom the article: “Personal visits and telephone calls reduce recidivism." If "chit chatting" all day means they don't come back why would anyone be against it?
- laksjd 10y agoThe companies and people that run the prisons and the prison phone systems are both very happy with a system where a) people spend a lot of time in jail and go back frequently and b) spend a lot of money on hyper-expensive phone calls since both of those things earn them very significant money. The question should probably be: Why should any sane person in the prison industry be for it?
- Spooky23 10y agoThey get commissions on the calls, which often directly benefit the employees.
- orangecat 10y agoI wouldn't mind if the state was collecting the money. They basically are. See "commissions": http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/10/prison-phone-companies-fight-for-right-to-charge-inmates-14-a-minute/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/10/prison-phone-comp...
- dade_ 10y agoThis is a much better article, thank you. Essentially this is the same as hotel phone rates, they also used to be very high by adding margin to the carrier services, but were part of the profitability of running a hotel. Mobile phones disrupted that source of income for hospitality, but with a captive customer the real issue is this commission now that telco rates have collapsed. As it is a fee for accessing telecommunication services, it sounds reasonable that the FCC should be able to regulate the commission, but the jail telcos have existing contracts in place under existing rules with the prisons and the FCC failed to address this.
- bksenior 10y agoYou do know the point of a prison is in fact not to punish. It is to rehabilitate and a sentence is supposed to be a reflection on how much rehabilitation is necessary. It's sad, prisons should have the same rights as eeryone else lest we create a caste of population unable to reintegrate and move beyond what is often a single poor decision.
- dlhavema 10y agoWhat about ( sometimes multiple ) lifetime sentences without release? Sure they try to rehab* the inmate but not to the point of releasing them.back out to the public. Granted this is just one scenario..
- protomyth 10y agoI suspect a lot of folks would say skip rehabbing that person and try to deal effectively with a person who is getting out. There isn't an infinite amount of money and the extra little bit spent properly might make the difference between productive citizen and career criminal.
- laksjd 10y agoCountries that have a very high focus on the 'rehab' part of prison usually don't issue lifetime and certainly not multiple-lifetime sentences. Instead they tend to send people into mandated psychiatric care (in practice often life-long) or, if a person is 'sane' yet still very likely to cause damage to others than they are placed in 'preventive detention' which is still just 'being in prison' but does not carry any punitive notions and needs to be actively renewed every few years.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago> Prison is a punishment Beside the points others made here that it isn't, and it shouldn't be, I'd like to invite you to think about the ethical and practical implications of punishing someone over, and over, and over again for years or even decades, for an action that usually took only a very, very small fraction of time compared to the length of "punishment". The very idea flies in the face of... well any kind of experience with people and how they learn.
- ludamad 10y agoIt's the fear of that punishment that is desired. Most people think murderers or similar are beyond redemption
- bdcravens 10y agoYet DWI has a very high rate of recidivism, and DWI deaths are on par with murder victims. Murder has a very low rate of recidivism (most people don't realize everyone doesn't get a life sentence) Which group is really beyond redemption?
- robryk 10y agoAnd yet we make the actual prison experience worse than how it is perceived by a typical person.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- smallnamespace 10y agoRetributive justice isn't for the the criminals, it's to deter other crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice#Principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice#Principles Personally, I think we've gone too far down the 'retributive' route without corresponding investments in rehabilitation, but a lot of Americans prefer to lock the door and throw away the key.
- tamana 10y ago
- koolba 10y ago> I wouldn't mind if the state was collecting the money. Prison is a punishment and you shouldn't be able to just chit chat all day. If there's one thing we don't need, it's a fiscal incentive for the government to jail people. Prison is meant to be a punishment for crimes and (depending on who you ask) an opportunity for rehabilitation. Without the latter you're going to have way more of the former. I'm not saying that inmates should have 24/7 free phone calls, free video calls, etc but price gouging a captive (no pun intended) audience isn't right either.
- protomyth 10y ago> If there's one thing we don't need, it's a fiscal incentive for the government to jail people. This, public or private, the root of the problem is that private companies and unions financially benefit from a larger prison population and both have money and political power to lobby effectively. Remove the financial incentive that has bad effects and you get a better system.
- travmatt 10y agoMost of the exploitation is aimed at the families of the incarcerated - you already control the prisoners wages and pay them slave wages so you can extract but so much. But the families? If you move the prisoner far enough away you can bet they won't have the means to make visits, and you can charge families exorbitant rates for your captive market.
- bdcravens 10y agoBeing in prison is a punishment. what goes on in prison should be designed at keeping the incarcerated in and meet their civil rights; the idea that active punishment is justified speaks to a different mentality. This mentality is the outgrowth of "us-vs-them", but most people are closer to being "them" than they really know. If you've gotten behind the wheel of a car over the limit 3 or more times, in most states, you deserve to be prisoner.
- adventurer 10y agoI don't think most people are as close to being "them" as you think. We're not teetering on a society about to collapse into sending a meaningful amount of people into prison.
- int_19h 10y agoAre you aware of the fact that we (US) are _already_ a society that sends more people into prison, both per capita and in absolute numbers, than any other country on earth?
- jessaustin 10y ago...ever, in history.
- adventurer 10y agoLooking at the statistics, it backs up my comment, that most people are not as close to being them as you said.
- Fjolsvith 10y agoI've done time in county jails, state and federal prisons. On average, the phone call length you can make is 15 minutes max. You can make them 15 minutes apart. In the Alaskan state prison system, a 15 minute phone call from me cost my dad $33. How is that punishing me?
- Fjolsvith 10y agoI've done time in county jails, state and federal prisons. On average, the phone call length you can make is 15 minutes max. You can make them 15 minutes apart. In the Alaskan state prison system, a 15 minute phone call from me cost my dad $33. How is that punishing me?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- TenOhms 10y agoThe only thing that you have to determine is which political campaigns are these two companies donating the most to. Then you'll know why this isn't being changed.
- rch 10y ago> By voting against the caps, [Ajit Pai and Michael O’Rielly] voted against 2.7 million children who are just trying to stay in touch with their incarcerated parents. Both Republicans on the panel. I included the 'think of the children' bit to illustrate how easy it is to turn a persuasive argument into a blatantly manipulative one.
- cmdrfred 10y agoHillary has taken $133,246[0] from prison lobbyists. Her husband admitted guilt for the state of the current prison system[1] and famously Hillary publicly supported[2] those very same policies with rather fear mongering speeches. I'd argue the corruption is rather bipartisan. [0]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/bernie-sanders-will-ban-private-prisons_b_9297568.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/bernie-sanders-wil... [1]http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/06/politics/bill-clinton-crime-prisons-hillary-clinton/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/06/politics/bill-clinton-crime-pr... [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXulk0T8cg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXulk0T8cg
- krastanov 10y agoDonation does not immediately imply corruption (on either side of the political spectrum). Especially one as small as this one. It does bring moral questions, and it is worthwhile to think about limiting the power of "donations" in politics, but people can hold an opinion that we dislike even before receiving a donation. The question is whether they will change their opinion when confronted with data.
- cmdrfred 10y agoCan you give me an example where Hillary Clinton has recused herself from a political process due to a conflict of interest with one of her donors? If not, isn't that worrying? Shouldn't the appearance of impropriety be enough?
- percept 10y agoPrison rape and other violence, either.
- Zigurd 10y agoThe FCC did cap rates. They revised the caps upward after being sued by the two main prison phone service (such as it is) providers. The caps look pretty high but I guess that means rates were really high before they were capped. But it remains one more of the ghoulish practices that crop up when there is an opportunity to profit from misery.
- trhway 10y agoin the recent story on NPR about a young Mexican guy dying (ruled suicide) in the privately run ICE detention center it was mentioned that the attempts of the relatives to reach him on the phone were unsuccessful as the center's employees were not able, for some unknown reason, to call the guy to the phone, and instead the center's employees suggested to the relatives that the relatives have to put money in the detainee's account first and after that the detainee would be able to call them himself. The motivation here is pretty obvious to anyone who knows about the outgoing rates from the detention center and who profits from it. Practically the definition of extortion.
- pop8row9 10y agoIt is unfortunate that large amounts of money are not made available to reform the prison system. It seems that society is on autopilot, with people being led into a meat-grinder. Moral activation seems necessary.
- BEEdwards 10y agoThat's an interesting take, in reality the people who care are poor and don't have the resources to make their voices heard.
- Lendal 10y agoMost poor people don't understand until it happens to them. At that point it's too late. This is one reason why poor people tend to remain poor.
- MichaelGG 10y agoAmericans overall seem to have a hard "punishment" stance towards "criminals". Just look at all the rape jokes regarding prisons. While some might just be for laughs, a lot of it, I think, underlies the idea that prison should be super hard and punishing. People are fine saying "hey you broke the law, I don't care if it's not hard to make phone calls!"
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- tacostakohashi 10y agoTextbook case of rent seeking and regulatory capture. Two companies are competing against each other, not on price or service to the consumer, but on which can manipulate the regulator the most effectively.
- losteverything 10y agoWhile at ma bell the prison collect program was always "over there" like programs that managed recording and rating gov't ld lines In the pre cellular days we always thought prison collect was high but so was charging .37 per minute to any light user. Overcapacity and cell phone Ubiquity never made it to private networks like prisons.
- millzlane 10y agoWhat they don't mention in the article is that inmates aren't able to call cell phones. Earlier this year I had to bail out a friend arrested from a traffic stop. He wasn't able to successfully complete a call to my cell. After he said his name and it told me to press 1 to accept the call, it would just disconnect. Frantically trying to figure something out because I know they don't give you many calls. I ended up having to "add money" to my account just so he could call my cell phone and tell me where he was so I can contact a bailsman. I had to pay money just so he could make his free phone call to retain a lawyer or a bail bondsman. EDIT: This is the company I had to pay https://web.connectnetwork.com/ https://web.connectnetwork.com/
- bdcravens 10y agoNot always the case. Connect Network services county jails and I know for a fact they allow calling of cell phones (requires person on other end to set up an account so it takes a couple of minutes to connect) I assume it depends on the area and the contract.
- jessaustin 10y agoRequiring the called party to set up an account might be easy if she just happens to be sitting at her desk when the call is made, but it could be much more onerous in other situations. Regardless, this breaks the standard expectations that humans have for using a phone.
- peter303 10y agoThe Bible has many admonishments about being kind to prisoners. https://www.openbible.info/topics/prisoners https://www.openbible.info/topics/prisoners
- TrickedOut 10y agoMost of the most vocal believers of the bible in America are ironically also the same folks pushing for privatization of prisons, harsh sentences for minorities (obviously not for the likes of Rush Limbaugh though), punishment-instead-of-reintegration, etc.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- tinalumfoil 10y agoI dont see why the Bible needs to be taken into consideration here. I understand wanting historical perspectives for policy, but religion shouldn't be needlessly shoved down people's throats.
- steve19 10y agoIs a link really pushing religion down your throat? If it was a Muslim majority country we would were discussing a link to the Quran that gives context would be useful.
- nitrogen 10y agoInvoking religion in what should be secular discussions regarding public policy can definitely be perceived as pushing religion down people's throats. Imagine the opposite -- if every time a group of people were seen chatting about religion, someone walked up and quoted some famous atheistic reference? However, I don't see an iterated discussion of this as a useful tangent for the thread to take, so let's discuss instead how religious philosophies of all kinds could or should have informed the believers of those religions in the issue of prisoner treatment. What leads to the dichotomy between religious messages of peace, and the warlike behavior of some adherents to those religions?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- alanfalcon 10y agoThere's a local (to me) Vegas startup trying to help people communicate with prisoners - https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/24/pigeon-ly/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/24/pigeon-ly/ - they bring up a good point that these people will be asked to reintegrate with society and to best do that we need to help them remain a part of it with regular communication with friends and family. The prison phone system runs entirely counter to this ideal.
- mekaj 10y agoThe non-profit Prison Policy Initiative does a lot of research on these issues and petitions the FCC for changes. This page summarizes a lot of their efforts (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/phones/#price http://www.prisonpolicy.org/phones/#price). Their other publications are available at http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports.html http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports.html
- ddp 10y agoAmerica, doing it wrong since 1776.
- colsandurz 10y agoHow do I show the FCC that I care about this???
- pop8row9 10y agoI also wish to know this