12 ms·

Kinesis Advantage 2

121 points by afshinmeh 10y ago

SSLy 10y ago
yeah, that's about 1/3 of my salary...
- noelwelsh 10y ago
  They are far from the only ergonomic keyboard in town. The Microsoft Natural is decent and about 20% of the price.
  - melling 10y ago
    It doesn't have mechanical switches.
  - ldiracdelta 10y ago
    After you try the Kinesis Advantage, the Microsoft Natural feels like a joke. The length of your fingers is distributed like a parabola and the Kinesis design is the parabola that fits over your fingers to minimize the travel distance of _all_ your fingers. Conversely, the Microsoft Natural keyboard is actually a parabola that goes _away_ from your finger to actually _increase_ the travel distance needed for your ring, pinky, and index fingers.
- criddell 10y ago
  I'm guessing you don't suffer from wrist pain. I'm fortunate that after 30 years of typing every day, I'm still pain free, but I work with people that struggle with it. For them, if a $350 keyboard makes the pain go away, it's the easiest money to spend ever.
- mchaver 10y ago
  It's not cheap but I don't think it's outrageous either, assuming it lasts a long time. Wrist health is important for anyone spending a long time on the computer. It's relatively cheaper than safety equipment for a lot of industries/hobbies.
- toyg 10y ago
  What percentage of your salary does your computer cost? This is the primary interface to that, something you will use 8 hours a day. Your wrists don't care if your CPU runs 2.3Ghz or 2.7Ghz, but they will care if your keyboard/mouse/screen/chair setup is not good.
- ldiracdelta 10y ago
  I have pimped out my work setup at my own expense and I think it is well worth it. I know many people at work who have brand new BMW's or shiny pickup trucks who use their vehicles for 20 minutes a day on their commute and yet pay $400/month for the privilege! I bought a 30" monitor, an advantage 2, a RAT 5 gaming mouse, and a Geek Desk for a grand total of $2k and I use the setup 8 hours a week day. Also, a 2001 Camry that I paid cash for. Why not invest in the environment that you'll spend your most productive adult years in?
  - brokenmachine 10y ago
    You had me until the 2001 Camry, that's just being a masochist, haha! You can get a reasonably priced, fun car without having to suffer! I've got an Ergodox, Logitech g700s mouse and three monitors, 32" in the middle with two 24" on the sides, plus a great comfy chair. Best money I've spent, worth it at 10x the price, considering how much time I'm sitting there...
whiteheadrj 10y ago
I have two of the original Kinesis Advantage keyboards, one for work and one for home. They have saved my programming career.
dotemacs 10y ago
Here is "What's new" info: 1) Cherry ML mechanical function keys Original Advantage: Mushy rubber function keys. Advantage2: You asked for it and we delivered. The function key row now features low-force Cherry ML mechanical key switches that offer a satisying, tactile key press plus unmatched reliability and durability. 2) Whopping 2 MB of onboard memory Original Advantage: 2 KB of onboard memory (Advantage Pro had 4 KB). Advantage2: The Advantage2 has 2 MB of memory, as in megabytes, which is 1000x more memory than the standard Advantage. Now you have an enormous amount of space to record macros and build custom layouts. 3) Heavy duty macros & increased capacity Original Advantage: Up to 48 “short” macros (28 characters or less) or 24 “long” macros (58 characters or less) Advantage2: Each custom layout built with the SmartSet engine can now support 100+ “heavy-duty” macros of more than 200+ characters in each. SmartSet allows you to create even more powerful macros through the direct editing process. Insert delays into macro playback of either 125ms or 500ms, or trigger different actions on the press and release of a given macro trigger. 4) View and edit layouts Original Advantage: When you remapped a key or recorded a macro you had no easy way to track you changes or perform any updates. Advantage2: With SmartSet, all layouts are saved and stored as basic .txt files which can be opened with any text editing program on any operating systems. Open the text file and directly edit your remaps or macros. Even insert new actions using many standard USB hex codes. 5) Share and backup layouts Original Advantage: There was no way to share or backup layouts. You had to keep a separate crib sheet if you ever wanted to rebuild your custom layout. Advantage2: Each layout is stored as a basic text file making them easy to save, backup or even share with a friend. The days of rebuilding your custom layout from scratch are over. 6) Status Report Original Advantage: It was easy to forget which layout was active, which thumb key mode you were in and other keyboard settings. Advantage2: Thanks to the new Status Report feature, you can quickly “print-to-screen” a Status Report showing you basic information about the active layout include the number of key remaps and macros, and your thumb key mode. 7) Adjust macro playback speed Original Advantage: All macros played back at one speed. Advantage2: Choose from 9 different macro playback speeds. Set the playback speed globally for all macros or set it individually for a specific macro to optimize performance. Slow playback down to 4.2 characters per second (“CPS”), or speed it up to a blazing fast 250 CPS- equivalent to typing 3,000 words per minute! 8) Hotkey layouts Original Advantage: Only supported one custom layout. Advantage2: With the Advantage2, you can now create dozens of custom hotkey layouts for either QWERTY or Dvorak and access them with a simple 2-key combination: Program + the assigned hotkey. 9) Native Dvorak Original Advantage: When you switched out of Dvorak you lost your settings. When you remapped keys in your Dvorak layout you did so in QWERTY. Advantage2: Dvorak is no longer a second-class citizen. Dvorak users get all the same functionality as QWERTY users, and each custom Dvorak layout is saved to the keyboard so it’s easy to move back-and-forth or share your keyboard. And when you’re remapping in Dvorak, you no longer have to translate from QWERTY. 10) Easy firmware upgrades Original Advantage: Firmware was not upgradable. Advantage2: When you invest in an expensive keyboard, you expect it to last. Thanks to the SmartSet engine you can upgrade the firmware when new versions become available. Firmware updates take only seconds and don’t require opening up the keyboard or downloading a scary executable file (.exe) from the internet. 11) Kinesis Blue Home Row Advantage2 features a more vibrant, modern home row accented in Kinesis Blue.
weitzj 10y ago
I code the CODE keyboard right now https://codekeyboards.com https://codekeyboards.com And I especially like the hardware switches to remap some keys. But the Kindesis SmartSet Programming seems like another level.
icefox 10y ago
Does it fix the shift bug that plagues the model 1? Every user I have talked has had the issue but the company denies it is an issue even though we can reproduce it on many different keyboards, different hardware, and os's. I am very interested in getting this, but I don't want to do it if this issue hasn't been resolved.
- yabatopia 10y ago
  What's the problem with the shift button? I'm using the first model for several years now and never noticed a problem with the shift button.
  - clarry 10y ago
    Not just shift but modifiers in general get stuck.
    - icefox 10y ago
      Just to be clear they don't get physically stuck. The most common issue reported is that the keyboard behaves as though the shift key is being pressed even though it is not (aka stuck). The way to fix it is to first recognize that the keyboard is in this mode and then hit the shift key to turn on/off the shift modifier. I have reports of this issues going back to many different kinesis keyboards from at at least 2001 onward.
      - kevinherron 10y ago
        Weird. I have not had this issue. I'll ask my co-worker on Monday if he has; he's been using this keyboard for like 8 years.
      - WretchedEarl 10y ago
        I have 2 Advantage keyboards and both exhibit this issue. Back when I first got them (about 9 years ago) I called Kinesis about it, but they claimed they had never heard of the problem. While it seems to happen most often with modifier keys, I've had it happen with regular keys, too (including the delete key, which is always exciting :-).
homero 10y ago
A macro can now contain a whole program in case you like compiling fresh
richardboegli 10y ago
I'm waiting for ultimate hacking keyboard in September [1] [1] http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
- Paul_S 10y ago
  Why stagger the keys?
  - dkhenry 10y ago
    As a ergodox user I can answer that. While yes the matrix layout is _way_ better, the downside is that if you ever type on a standard keyboard you are immediately frustrated. I imagine it would depend on your working environment, but for me the combination of using a laptop, working with co-workers, and then using my desk with my awesome ergodox means that I am often fighting my own muscle memory to continue typing at a high rate of speed. There is something to be said to conforming to what most people have. Splitting the keyboard gives me a good compromise, I can still have my hands in relaxed positions, and while I am not going to be as fast as when I am on just the ergodox ,I gain by being much faster working in the other environments I often find myself in.
    - pfooti 10y ago
      Personally, I've found that it takes about five minutes for my hands to adjust when I switch between ergodox and laptop. (Basically working at home vs in a cafe). I'm a relatively speedy typist in either mode, but it does take adjusting to swap modes. That said, this is why I am not using colemak on my ergodox- I dont want to further distance the two keyboards.
      - aerique 10y ago
        I used to type on Dvorak at home and Qwerty at work and switching between the two was no issue.
    - 613style 10y ago
nubela 10y ago
For those that prefer a split keyboard, I highly recommend Matias Ergo Pro. The keys are very nice, more importantly, it allows me to adjust how far apart each halves of the keyboard should be. It seriously alleviated my shoulder ache as I can finally type with my arms open.
robk 10y ago
This keyboard style is absolutely amazing. I had pre-carpal style pain in my hands for years and tried every other keyboard out there, including all the ergo ones that came highly recommended. This is the only one that actually stopped the pain for me. 10+ years of satisfaction here - I've got one at every PC I use regularly now. The new non-mushy F-keys are a nice improvement, but honestly not sure that's worth replacing my existing ones since they're built like tanks already.
- epistasis 10y ago
  > built like tanks I got mine 12 years ago, still have the same one as my primary keyboard. I replaced the enter key about 3 years ago, because I'm pretty hard on keyboards, frequently breaking space bars, etc., within a year before I got a kinesis. 2 weeks ago, I was having an issue with a row of keys going unresponsive intermittently. I emailed support and they sent back detailed instructions for checking inside the keyboard, despite the product being 12 years old. The issue went away before I could try to fix it. I don't have any other computer equipment that's as tough.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    Similar here. My oldest Kinesis I've had for 14 years and it was used when I bought it (this was before they were USB). My daily use one is from 2003 and I don't see any reason to think it won't last another 13 years. The F-keys are poor, but I don't use them all that often, so it hasn't bothered me much; that's the only feature on the "what's new" that seems a big deal. Kinesis keyboard is some of the best money I've spent on computing over the years. One downside: I now look like a moron when I go to type on a regular keyboard in a conference room or at someone else's desk.
    - robk 10y ago
      On the plus side, it's a nice way to keep people from using your terminal. They sit down then get a scared look on their face and quickly give you back control of the machine ;)
nspassov 10y ago
I have been using the Kinesis Freestyle on my Mac with the VIP accessory pads and it is very comfortable. I place the two parts of the keyboard on the sides of my 15" MBP.
- toyg 10y ago
  I have the Freestyle 2 (which I reviewed here [0]) and it's great. My wrists are so much more relaxed. Every time I have to use a traditional keyboard now I cringe. It's also helped me improve touch-typing. Unfortunately, I have not found a good solution for a mice. The Magic Trackpad, even turned around in negative slope, is just not good enough when there's a bit too much drag&drop. [0] http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis-freestyle2-multichannel.html http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis-freestyle2-multich...
  - shiftb 10y ago
    I use a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse or trackpad. Holding the stylus pencil-style is very comfortable once you get used to it.
    - dragonne 10y ago
      I use a Wacom for some tasks, but I find it even worse than a mouse if you are switching back and forth a lot. For drag and drop I recommend the Contour Design Rollermouse Red. The downside is it doesn't pair well with a deep keyboard, as it wants to replace any wrist rest.
  - wishinghand 10y ago
    I use an Evoluent mouse and it's been a revelation for how much a regular mouse was tweaking my right arm and elbow.
  - mtrimpe 10y ago
    I absolutely loved the RollerMouse before I got my Kinesis Advantage. It might work for the Freestyle though so you could consider giving it a try. Still the most ergonomic mouse I've used to date.
1ris 10y ago
I can recommend the ErgoDox. It's somwhat similar and DIY, but much cheaper. For mine I payed not much over 100€.
- icefox 10y ago
  Link: https://ergodox-ez.com/ https://ergodox-ez.com/
  - nazgob 10y ago
    295$ is not that much cheaper.
    - 1ris 10y ago
      The PCB is only 35€. And i had most other parts already.
  - 1ris 10y ago
    That's the non-DIY variant. That's of course more expensive. I got more than enough cherry keyboards, so i had switches and some high quality keycaps (the black cherry ones), and the experience of building it. The PCBs only cost 35€.
  - JustinGarrison 10y ago
    I've had the ergodox ez for a while now. Really like it. I had the advantage in the past and it didn't work well for me. I made a 3d printable tent kit for the Ergodox EZ which has worked really well for me too. https://github.com/rothgar/ergodox-ez-tent-kit https://github.com/rothgar/ergodox-ez-tent-kit
- copperx 10y ago
  I wonder why they aren't any direct Kinesis competitors. Their patent expired a few years ago.
bandali 10y ago
If you're looking for a mechanical ergonomic keyboard that you can also easily take with you, I suggest taking a look at Atreus[0], a 42-key column-staggered keyboard. I got one a while back. Haven't gotten around to publishing my build log, but building the keyboard was a lot of fun. With the somewhat steep learning curve out of the way, I've been really enjoying it and gone are the days of wrist pain. Oh, and I'm in no way affiliated with Phil or the project, just a very happy user dropping his 2¢ here. [0]: https://atreus.technomancy.us https://atreus.technomancy.us
- gbrown_ 10y ago
  Been eying these up for a while now. Also the firmware is completely open which is nice.
  - aban 10y ago
    Absolutely; I'm using a slightly modified layout myself. Both the design and the firmware(s) are free software: - Design (GPLv3): https://github.com/technomancy/atreus https://github.com/technomancy/atreus - Current firmware (GPLv2+): https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus - Older firmware, great for learning (GPLv3): https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware
- melling 10y ago
  How are the wrists bent with the small size? Ideally, the keyboard should be split in half so your wrists are farther apart. There's a lot to consider when shopping for an ergonomic keyboard: https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heirloom-grade-keyboard-for-serious-typists/ https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heir...
  - aban 10y ago
    That's true and perhaps surprisingly enough, despite the small size I don't find myself bending my wrists when typing. The fact that the layout is column-staggered helps a lot with this too: I don't have to bend my wrists sideways to reach the "corners" of the keyboard; I just move my hands back and forth.
kevinherron 10y ago
These keyboards are amazing. Hands/wrists stopped hurting after ~1 week of switching.
- michaf 10y ago
  I had a similar experience. Increasing pain levels gradually drove me away from from pursuing programming projects outside of work. First I tried the Kinesis Freestyle2, and while the pain got better, my hands could not adjust to the additional degree of freedom from having two keyboard pieces. Got the Advantage, and now I can code again for hours without any wrist pain. Highly recommended.
Athas 10y ago
I have used the original edition of this keyboard for some years now, and it is amazing. By far the best keyboard I have ever used. While I prefer the Cherry Blues on my older Das Keyboard, the layout of the Kinesis Advantage is incredibly comfortable and quite efficient. It does take some remapping to make it work well with Emacs, but that's all done with the keyboard firmware itself (i.e. no driver software needed).
- lgleason 10y ago
  If you want to solder in cherry blues yourself you might be able to buy the keyboard without the switches. Kinesis is good about things like that.
clessg 10y ago
Is it possible for Canadians to buy this? (Or those outside the US in general?)
- shassard 10y ago
  I've bought a few of the model 1 from http://www.ergocanada.com/ http://www.ergocanada.com/ in the past. Be prepared for a hefty markup and non-trivial shipping costs. It might be cheaper to buy in from the US in the end. You might also have some luck contacting vendors that sell other Kinesis gear and see if they'll special order it for you at a good price. http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis
koolba 10y ago
How long does it take to get used to using something like this? Is it worth the effort? How does it compare to a natural keyboard (the slightly more normal looking split one by Microsoft)?
- iyn 10y ago
  It took me about 5-7 days to get used to typing on Kinesis. The beginning was really frustrating, even though I touch type, I wanted to returned it because I thought the keyboard was overhyped. But when it clicked - I loved it! For me it's definitely worth the effort, it's a fantastic keyboard and helped with my wrists and general comfort while typing.
- regularfry 10y ago
  It depends how happy you are with membrane keys. I went from an MS Natural to a traditionally shaped Cherry, and not only did my RSI not come back, I found my typing speed went up. I don't know if the membranes in that generation of Natural were particularly soft, but I wouldn't go back for the shape alone. If I can have both the shape and mechanical keys, it might be a winner.
- TheCondor 10y ago
  Remarkably little time. I've ne Ed screed carpal tunnel but my ha S's feel noticeably more relaxed on the kinesis. They are a bit expensive but well worth it
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  It took me about 2 weeks until I was up to normal speed. It was probably a month before I could use it with zero difficulty. I used ktouchtype to train on it. The thing is if you have any idiosyncrasies in your touch typing, the Kinesis will not forgive them. The way that the keys are stepped down into different levels makes it difficult to use the "wrong" finger to reach the desired key. Of course, ultimately, that's for the better. It will just take you a little bit of time to unlearn some of the not-quite-official typing habits you may've developed over the years. I absolutely believe it's worth the effort. Wrist pain is almost never an issue for me anymore. The Kinesis is highly durable and cleans up very well. I used the "Natural" keyboard for years before I switched to the Kinesis. There's no comparison. I had to replace the MS keyboard twice a year or more. Been on the same Kinesis for about 4 years and there are no signs of it wearing out. The only downside is that sometimes there are weird firmware issues that sit unreconciled. For example, there is some incompatibility with the Intel USB 3.0 bus, Windows 7 (at the time, Win8 was the latest OS, and it didn't affect Win8; don't know if it affects Win10 or not), and the Kinesis. It simply isn't detected under that OS. No problems on other versions of Windows, other OSes, or other USB busses. This meant I couldn't use it on a Bootcamp'd MacBook Pro. Kinesis was apparently unable to get Intel to cooperate in debugging the issue with their chipset drivers. That said, it's an investment that I enthusiastically endorse if you're willing to commit to a couple weeks of learning curve (and since we're talking about the health of the hands needed to continue our careers here, you definitely should be).
Luc 10y ago
FINALLY real key switches for the F-keys. I have been making do without them for at least 7 years now, since they gave out after only a couple of years on my Kinesis Ergo Elan. Still using the same old plastic moulds with the weird off-centre label I see.
- bosie 10y ago
  Where do you see that? The photos look like the same rubbery things they are using in V1?
  - nazgob 10y ago
    It's in the description, "Long-time Advantage users will rejoice to learn that we’ve replaced the mushy, rubber function keys with high-performance Cherry ML switches that offer the same low-force and tactile properties of the MX Brown.". Great change but I guess I will not drop 350$ just for that ;)
  - lgleason 10y ago
    I beta tested the Advantage 2. They replaced the rubber keys with mechanical ones using the same size for the switch.
    - azinman2 10y ago
      Anything else that's diff? I almost never use my f keys do its not a big deal for me.
      - lgleason 10y ago
        The firmware with the ability to update it and do a lot more crazy stuff with the macros etc.. I'm not a heavy macro person but do a decent amount of remapping and liked that. Also the stuck shift/modifier keys has been fixed. If you currently have one, are happy with your setup and don't really use the f keys it might not make as much sense to do an upgrade. If you need another unit, have killed your current unit, or want to make the switch I would recommend this over the previous models.
_2wt4 10y ago
For those that may wonder "What's the point of a weird-looking keyboard?": Engelbart's Violin http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861
- falcolas 10y ago
  Thank you for the link; it and its references were interesting reads.
johnflan 10y ago
Wrist damage will be the new back damage.
benevol 10y ago
The main problem with buying the right keyboard is that you almost never can try it out (i.e. in a store). There are multiple variables, besides the general ergonomic question, mainly: You want to know how it feels to type, you want to know how it sounds to type (mostly: is it quiet or will you get on your co-worker's nerves?). I have just bought a Logitech in a store that did not allow me to take it out of the box to try it out. Once I've tried it out at home, I wanted to throw it in the trash immediately. F*ck them for selling like that. So, if you're looking for a start-up idea: Why not set up an online store with ALL brands (maybe focus on the premium segment which is ergo keyboards, first). Then you ship the customer keyboards to test at home. Once the customer's happy, he returns the last test keyboard and gets a brand new version of it.
- vosper 10y ago
  If you're in the US Amazon generally lets you return anything for any reason. "I tried it and I didn't like it" would be fine with them. It makes the process a bit slower, with shipping and all, but you could purchase all your candidate keyboards together and then return the one(s) you don't like.
  - tga 10y ago
    Up until they decide you've returned too many things and they cancel all your accounts with them without recourse. As with most stores, I think Amazon returns are meant for actual problems and cases when things really don't work out, not for trying out hardware.
- jseliger 10y ago
  IIRC, Kinesis claims it has a two-month, no-bullshit return policy: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/customer-service/guarantee/ http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/customer-service/guarant... presumably because people want to try out their keyboards.
jtreminio 10y ago
Personally I am waiting for the KeyMouse[0], a physically-split keyboard with integrated mouse as part of the keyboard parts, so no need to lift hand from keyboard to perform mousely duties. Hopefully it is a great product, but I'm wondering if they couldn't have taken it a step further and made the keyboards at an angle to mimic natural arm positions. [0]: http://www.keymouse.com/ http://www.keymouse.com/
- PostOnce 10y ago
  It's a little overengineered for my taste. I would be very happy if microsoft on the Ergo 4000 instead of including a stupid, absolutely useless "zoom knob" thing just put a trackpoint there! http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg what a bafflingly missed opportunity.
  - mamcx 10y ago
    And with mech keys. I'm toying the idea of build a clone, but my initial finds show will be more hard/costly than expected: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79603.msg2053482 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79603.msg2053482
  - daxelrod 10y ago
    The good news is that you can at least remap what the zoom knob does using MS's IntelliType software. But you're right, hugely missed opportunity.
  - kabdib 10y ago
    I'd pay good money for an Ergo keyboard with mechanical switches. The last decade or so of MS keyboards have been rubber-domed disasters. I cannot type on the things. I pre-ordered a couple KeyboardIO keyboards, and maybe I can make them work well with a little firmware noodling. Looks like November or later . . . .
- lgleason 10y ago
  I tried one at CES. Great concept but wasn't sold after trying it.
drivingmenuts 10y ago
Why is that thing so bloody expensive? The cost of parts for a keyboard are measure in pennies, for the most part. The manufacturing is ridiculously cheap. So, with all of that, what justifies a $350 price tag on any keyboard these days?
- lgleason 10y ago
  I've had conversations with Kinesis about this. Even though there is a enthusiast community there is not enough of a demand to send manufacturing overseas. Also, because of the key well design those PCB's need to be soldered by hand rather than wave soldering them. The net effect is that they are hand made in the United States which is why the cost is higher.
  - rleigh 10y ago
    It's the same thing with Maltron keyboards, which have a similar 3D sculpted layout for some of their models. They are individually hand-wired. On the other hand, when you look at the cost of RSI they are well worth the cost when you consider the alternative. I tried out the Maltron and it didn't help me (it's not carpal tunnel), but I get along well with the Kinesis Freestyle 2. Worth every penny, I got one for home as well, and it helps greatly. When the alternative is finding another career, it's pretty inexpensive all considered.
    - lgleason 10y ago
      When you factor in how long these things last it ends up being a wash... a Kinesis will last 8-10 years vs most which start to have issues after 2.
kross 10y ago
Originally bought because of wrist pain, I've had the kinesis advantage for 16 years, I'm on my third one and I've worn out keys on each one from so much use. Luckily they shipped me new switches for free and allowed me to switch the myself (at my request due to timing). Fantastic service and product. I really do wear them out. With that said, all three exhibited the sticky modifier problem. I'm used to it but it always made me wonder if the internals were going bad. In March I preordered https://shop.keyboard.io https://shop.keyboard.io I'll be very interested to compare, and if it isn't as good or better, I won't hesitate to order the updated kinesis advantage.
- icefox 10y ago
  I'm in the exact same situation and have been pondering that keyboard also. Do you plan on doing a write up after you get it?
- TylerE 10y ago
  That looks sort of interesting, but as a programmer, the awkward positioning of tab and return, and the need to use modifier keys to get the directional arrows, {}, and [] just completely kills it for me.
  - ldiracdelta 10y ago
    My experience with remapping my mind to the Advantage2 keyboard was that it took a week to be reasonably usable, and a month before I was back to my normal flow. All wrist pain gone. It is really nice to have many of your most used keys on your thumbs instead of your pinkies.
  - mike_h 10y ago
    No modifier keys necessary for the directional arrows, if you mean the ones that move the cursor? They're under your pointer and middle finger on each side. Having return key (and backspace, space, and mod keys) always directly under your strongest fingers ends up feeling really natural and efficient, in my experience.
    - 10y ago
lgleason 10y ago
I was a beta tester of this. AMA
shassard 10y ago
Hey Kinesis, if you're reading here, I'd love to see a controller upgrade for the original Advantage to get around the sticky keys bug. It's not even a problem to lose the built-in USB hub. My two old Advantage keyboards are trucking along just fine otherwise!
zafiro17 10y ago
I bought the Advantage1 in 2008 and it's been one of my best keyboards ever since then. It's extremely comfortable. I wrote up a few paragraphs about my impressions here: http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-Style-with-the-Kinesis.html http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-Sty... The one common complaint is that they had used rubber keys instead of mechanical for the function keys. Looks like that issue is addressed in this second edition. For sheer key build quality, the Totally Ergonomic Keyboard is better. But the Kinesis is more ergonomically comfortable, and includes a couple of USB slots so it can function as a hub (few other ergo keyboards do that). I won't buy this new version because my own Ergo will probably last another 20 years - it's built that strongly! - and the rubber function keys don't bother me a bit.
- dragonne 10y ago
  Maybe this is new, but the TECK has terrible build quality IME. I have been using two (home and work) and both have accrued keys that don't work properly---some don't respond reliably, or at all, and some double-press. These are both Cherry browns. Firmware tweaks haven't helped.
  - lgleason 10y ago
    I heard that there were some issues with the solder joints on the switches with the the TECK. When I went over to being a Kinesis user I had considered these but decided to go with the Advantage......am very glad I did.
wanderr 10y ago
I tried out the original and found it to be incredibly frustrating. I'm a fast typist, used to MS Natural keyboards,and I constantly felt like my fingers were "tripping" over the keys. I'm sure part of that is just getting used to the arrangement but I really felt like I was putting more strain on my wrists trying to move my fingers more deliberately to avoid hitting other keys.
- loup-vaillant 10y ago
  Slow down. The asymmetry you are used to with the (un)Natural keyboards induced reflexes that no longer work with the contoured. For instance, to hit many keys in staggered keyboard such as Microsoft's, you have to twist your wrist a little. If you counter this natural twist (instead of not twisting at all), this contracts your wrist even more than it used to. So slow down, it will get more natural over time.
allsystemsgo 10y ago
I have one of these on every computer I own. It's amazing. It saved my career. I physically cannot type on a regular keyboard anymore.
Luc 10y ago
Given the usual price multiples, this is going to be a nearly 500 euro keyboard in Europe (inc. VAT). E.g. Kinesis Advantage Pro in US: $359 ( http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/ http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/ ) In Holland: 390 Euro ex VAT ( https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage-toetsenbord https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage-toetsenbord ) So let's say for the Advantage 2 the $369 price becomes 400 Euro. Add 21% VAT and you end up paying about 484 euro, without shipping of course. Ouch.
- eikenberry 10y ago
  You can usually get it for around 10% off either when they run a sale or off Amazon. But yes, they are expensive, but they also age well and Kinesis is great with support. My first keyboard lasted 8 years before a couple of the switches started to go. Contacting them, they gave me the option of shipping me new switches for free (requires soldering) or buy a new key-well (the curved circuit boards) for around $30.
  - Luc 10y ago
    The V1's don't age that well, though. My F-keys were starting to fail within a couple of years. They are rubber dome keys with a little conduction graphite layer on them, like remote control keys. Granted, the new version _should_ not have this problem.
    - lgleason 10y ago
      The key with the V1's is to remap keys you use frequently from the f-keys to something else, but if you use them a lot V2 will be a big upgrade for you.
alexkehayias 10y ago
Anyone know if the firmware allows you to program keys to emulate a mouse? I use this often with tmk_keyboard https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard firmware and found it to be just good enough to never use a mouse and keep the keyboard on your lap which is much better for my shoulders.
- whyasker 10y ago
  No, but contact the support ( http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-support/contact-tech/ http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-support/contac... ) they are wonderful.
  - lgleason 10y ago
    Agreed, this could be a feature that could be added if there is enough demand with the firmware.
- mtrimpe 10y ago
  On OS X Karabiner probably lets you. Maybe their firmware could also if you contact them. I once got sent a debut version of their software for the foot pedals and it had tons of cool hidden functionality.
  - raihansaputra 10y ago
    yep. but you're limited to using d as the trigger for the mouse. it should be customisable somewhat but i haven't explored about that.
dylanz 10y ago
I had RSI issues, and jumped into using a Kinesis Advantage and switching to Dvorak. I eventually went back to using my laptops keyboard, and still use Dvorak. I haven't had any RSI issues in the last 6+ years! I highly recommend switching to a Kinesis if you have hand/wrist pain and still need to work.
ifoundthetao 10y ago
Along with everyone else here, I had the same issue with my wrists, took a gamble, and got the keyboard. I haven't looked back. It's awesome. I let a co-worker borrow it, because he was having wrist issues, and he had the complete opposite effect with him. Wrist was turned down when he said it needed to be turned to the side. So he tried it for 15 minutes and returned it to me. So I guess it's not for everyone.
ScottBurson 10y ago
Another keyboard to look at is the Keyboardio Model 01: https://shop.keyboard.io/ https://shop.keyboard.io/ They're not shipping yet; as of their last update, estimated ship date is Nov. 1. I have a pair on order, but I haven't had a chance to try one, so I can only hope they work as nice as they look :-)
samdoshi 10y ago
You could always 3D print your own one... https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard Bonus points for having used Clojure to design it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4
rsipain 10y ago
Everyone always focuses on keyboards for RSI. While a great keyboard helps, removing the pressure off your wrists makes a massive difference. https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable-Armrest_Silver/dp/B00OFNFPMG https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable-Arm... These may make you look awkward at the office, but it takes all the strain out of your hands and wrists. Your weight is now on your forearm. Leaving your hands free to move. They articulate in every direction allowing full "wax on" "wax off" motions.
anotherevan 10y ago
I was lucky enough to find a local-ish store that had in-store demos available. They were nice enough to let me go in and try one out for an hour or so. I'm quite happy with my MS Ergo 4000, but I always wanted to try out the Kinesis. It does take a fair amount of getting use to. Initially feels quite funny to type on. The deal breaker for me at the time is that too many of the symbol keys are not in their usual locations, which is more significant when programming than writing prose. Here in the Antipodes the markup on these things is ridiculous (e.g., AU$550/US$420) so you really have to want one.
wilsonc91 10y ago
Wonder if this is worth buying over the advantage 1 in Canada with additional costs of getting it shipped over the borders. Can get the older model for $400 CDN on amazon.

Kinesis Advantage 2

121 points by afshinmeh 10y ago

SSLy 10y ago

yeah, that's about 1/3 of my salary...

noelwelsh 10y ago
They are far from the only ergonomic keyboard in town. The Microsoft Natural is decent and about 20% of the price.
- melling 10y ago
  It doesn't have mechanical switches.
- ldiracdelta 10y ago
  After you try the Kinesis Advantage, the Microsoft Natural feels like a joke. The length of your fingers is distributed like a parabola and the Kinesis design is the parabola that fits over your fingers to minimize the travel distance of _all_ your fingers. Conversely, the Microsoft Natural keyboard is actually a parabola that goes _away_ from your finger to actually _increase_ the travel distance needed for your ring, pinky, and index fingers.
criddell 10y ago
I'm guessing you don't suffer from wrist pain. I'm fortunate that after 30 years of typing every day, I'm still pain free, but I work with people that struggle with it. For them, if a $350 keyboard makes the pain go away, it's the easiest money to spend ever.
mchaver 10y ago
It's not cheap but I don't think it's outrageous either, assuming it lasts a long time. Wrist health is important for anyone spending a long time on the computer. It's relatively cheaper than safety equipment for a lot of industries/hobbies.
toyg 10y ago
What percentage of your salary does your computer cost? This is the primary interface to that, something you will use 8 hours a day. Your wrists don't care if your CPU runs 2.3Ghz or 2.7Ghz, but they will care if your keyboard/mouse/screen/chair setup is not good.
ldiracdelta 10y ago
I have pimped out my work setup at my own expense and I think it is well worth it. I know many people at work who have brand new BMW's or shiny pickup trucks who use their vehicles for 20 minutes a day on their commute and yet pay $400/month for the privilege! I bought a 30" monitor, an advantage 2, a RAT 5 gaming mouse, and a Geek Desk for a grand total of $2k and I use the setup 8 hours a week day. Also, a 2001 Camry that I paid cash for. Why not invest in the environment that you'll spend your most productive adult years in?
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  You had me until the 2001 Camry, that's just being a masochist, haha! You can get a reasonably priced, fun car without having to suffer! I've got an Ergodox, Logitech g700s mouse and three monitors, 32" in the middle with two 24" on the sides, plus a great comfy chair. Best money I've spent, worth it at 10x the price, considering how much time I'm sitting there...

whiteheadrj 10y ago

I have two of the original Kinesis Advantage keyboards, one for work and one for home. They have saved my programming career.

dotemacs 10y ago

Here is "What's new" info: 1) Cherry ML mechanical function keys Original Advantage: Mushy rubber function keys. Advantage2: You asked for it and we delivered. The function key row now features low-force Cherry ML mechanical key switches that offer a satisying, tactile key press plus unmatched reliability and durability. 2) Whopping 2 MB of onboard memory Original Advantage: 2 KB of onboard memory (Advantage Pro had 4 KB). Advantage2: The Advantage2 has 2 MB of memory, as in megabytes, which is 1000x more memory than the standard Advantage. Now you have an enormous amount of space to record macros and build custom layouts. 3) Heavy duty macros & increased capacity Original Advantage: Up to 48 “short” macros (28 characters or less) or 24 “long” macros (58 characters or less) Advantage2: Each custom layout built with the SmartSet engine can now support 100+ “heavy-duty” macros of more than 200+ characters in each. SmartSet allows you to create even more powerful macros through the direct editing process. Insert delays into macro playback of either 125ms or 500ms, or trigger different actions on the press and release of a given macro trigger. 4) View and edit layouts Original Advantage: When you remapped a key or recorded a macro you had no easy way to track you changes or perform any updates. Advantage2: With SmartSet, all layouts are saved and stored as basic .txt files which can be opened with any text editing program on any operating systems. Open the text file and directly edit your remaps or macros. Even insert new actions using many standard USB hex codes. 5) Share and backup layouts Original Advantage: There was no way to share or backup layouts. You had to keep a separate crib sheet if you ever wanted to rebuild your custom layout. Advantage2: Each layout is stored as a basic text file making them easy to save, backup or even share with a friend. The days of rebuilding your custom layout from scratch are over. 6) Status Report Original Advantage: It was easy to forget which layout was active, which thumb key mode you were in and other keyboard settings. Advantage2: Thanks to the new Status Report feature, you can quickly “print-to-screen” a Status Report showing you basic information about the active layout include the number of key remaps and macros, and your thumb key mode. 7) Adjust macro playback speed Original Advantage: All macros played back at one speed. Advantage2: Choose from 9 different macro playback speeds. Set the playback speed globally for all macros or set it individually for a specific macro to optimize performance. Slow playback down to 4.2 characters per second (“CPS”), or speed it up to a blazing fast 250 CPS- equivalent to typing 3,000 words per minute! 8) Hotkey layouts Original Advantage: Only supported one custom layout. Advantage2: With the Advantage2, you can now create dozens of custom hotkey layouts for either QWERTY or Dvorak and access them with a simple 2-key combination: Program + the assigned hotkey. 9) Native Dvorak Original Advantage: When you switched out of Dvorak you lost your settings. When you remapped keys in your Dvorak layout you did so in QWERTY. Advantage2: Dvorak is no longer a second-class citizen. Dvorak users get all the same functionality as QWERTY users, and each custom Dvorak layout is saved to the keyboard so it’s easy to move back-and-forth or share your keyboard. And when you’re remapping in Dvorak, you no longer have to translate from QWERTY. 10) Easy firmware upgrades Original Advantage: Firmware was not upgradable. Advantage2: When you invest in an expensive keyboard, you expect it to last. Thanks to the SmartSet engine you can upgrade the firmware when new versions become available. Firmware updates take only seconds and don’t require opening up the keyboard or downloading a scary executable file (.exe) from the internet. 11) Kinesis Blue Home Row Advantage2 features a more vibrant, modern home row accented in Kinesis Blue.

weitzj 10y ago

I code the CODE keyboard right now https://codekeyboards.com https://codekeyboards.com And I especially like the hardware switches to remap some keys. But the Kindesis SmartSet Programming seems like another level.

icefox 10y ago

Does it fix the shift bug that plagues the model 1? Every user I have talked has had the issue but the company denies it is an issue even though we can reproduce it on many different keyboards, different hardware, and os's. I am very interested in getting this, but I don't want to do it if this issue hasn't been resolved.

yabatopia 10y ago
What's the problem with the shift button? I'm using the first model for several years now and never noticed a problem with the shift button.
- clarry 10y ago
  Not just shift but modifiers in general get stuck.
  - icefox 10y ago
    Just to be clear they don't get physically stuck. The most common issue reported is that the keyboard behaves as though the shift key is being pressed even though it is not (aka stuck). The way to fix it is to first recognize that the keyboard is in this mode and then hit the shift key to turn on/off the shift modifier. I have reports of this issues going back to many different kinesis keyboards from at at least 2001 onward.
    - kevinherron 10y ago
      Weird. I have not had this issue. I'll ask my co-worker on Monday if he has; he's been using this keyboard for like 8 years.
    - WretchedEarl 10y ago
      I have 2 Advantage keyboards and both exhibit this issue. Back when I first got them (about 9 years ago) I called Kinesis about it, but they claimed they had never heard of the problem. While it seems to happen most often with modifier keys, I've had it happen with regular keys, too (including the delete key, which is always exciting :-).

homero 10y ago

A macro can now contain a whole program in case you like compiling fresh

richardboegli 10y ago

I'm waiting for ultimate hacking keyboard in September [1] [1] http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

Paul_S 10y ago
Why stagger the keys?
- dkhenry 10y ago
  As a ergodox user I can answer that. While yes the matrix layout is _way_ better, the downside is that if you ever type on a standard keyboard you are immediately frustrated. I imagine it would depend on your working environment, but for me the combination of using a laptop, working with co-workers, and then using my desk with my awesome ergodox means that I am often fighting my own muscle memory to continue typing at a high rate of speed. There is something to be said to conforming to what most people have. Splitting the keyboard gives me a good compromise, I can still have my hands in relaxed positions, and while I am not going to be as fast as when I am on just the ergodox ,I gain by being much faster working in the other environments I often find myself in.
  - pfooti 10y ago
    Personally, I've found that it takes about five minutes for my hands to adjust when I switch between ergodox and laptop. (Basically working at home vs in a cafe). I'm a relatively speedy typist in either mode, but it does take adjusting to swap modes. That said, this is why I am not using colemak on my ergodox- I dont want to further distance the two keyboards.
    - aerique 10y ago
      I used to type on Dvorak at home and Qwerty at work and switching between the two was no issue.
  - 613style 10y ago

nubela 10y ago

For those that prefer a split keyboard, I highly recommend Matias Ergo Pro. The keys are very nice, more importantly, it allows me to adjust how far apart each halves of the keyboard should be. It seriously alleviated my shoulder ache as I can finally type with my arms open.

robk 10y ago

This keyboard style is absolutely amazing. I had pre-carpal style pain in my hands for years and tried every other keyboard out there, including all the ergo ones that came highly recommended. This is the only one that actually stopped the pain for me. 10+ years of satisfaction here - I've got one at every PC I use regularly now. The new non-mushy F-keys are a nice improvement, but honestly not sure that's worth replacing my existing ones since they're built like tanks already.

epistasis 10y ago
> built like tanks I got mine 12 years ago, still have the same one as my primary keyboard. I replaced the enter key about 3 years ago, because I'm pretty hard on keyboards, frequently breaking space bars, etc., within a year before I got a kinesis. 2 weeks ago, I was having an issue with a row of keys going unresponsive intermittently. I emailed support and they sent back detailed instructions for checking inside the keyboard, despite the product being 12 years old. The issue went away before I could try to fix it. I don't have any other computer equipment that's as tough.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  Similar here. My oldest Kinesis I've had for 14 years and it was used when I bought it (this was before they were USB). My daily use one is from 2003 and I don't see any reason to think it won't last another 13 years. The F-keys are poor, but I don't use them all that often, so it hasn't bothered me much; that's the only feature on the "what's new" that seems a big deal. Kinesis keyboard is some of the best money I've spent on computing over the years. One downside: I now look like a moron when I go to type on a regular keyboard in a conference room or at someone else's desk.
  - robk 10y ago
    On the plus side, it's a nice way to keep people from using your terminal. They sit down then get a scared look on their face and quickly give you back control of the machine ;)

nspassov 10y ago

I have been using the Kinesis Freestyle on my Mac with the VIP accessory pads and it is very comfortable. I place the two parts of the keyboard on the sides of my 15" MBP.

toyg 10y ago
I have the Freestyle 2 (which I reviewed here [0]) and it's great. My wrists are so much more relaxed. Every time I have to use a traditional keyboard now I cringe. It's also helped me improve touch-typing. Unfortunately, I have not found a good solution for a mice. The Magic Trackpad, even turned around in negative slope, is just not good enough when there's a bit too much drag&drop. [0] http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis-freestyle2-multichannel.html http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis-freestyle2-multich...
- shiftb 10y ago
  I use a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse or trackpad. Holding the stylus pencil-style is very comfortable once you get used to it.
  - dragonne 10y ago
    I use a Wacom for some tasks, but I find it even worse than a mouse if you are switching back and forth a lot. For drag and drop I recommend the Contour Design Rollermouse Red. The downside is it doesn't pair well with a deep keyboard, as it wants to replace any wrist rest.
- wishinghand 10y ago
  I use an Evoluent mouse and it's been a revelation for how much a regular mouse was tweaking my right arm and elbow.
- mtrimpe 10y ago
  I absolutely loved the RollerMouse before I got my Kinesis Advantage. It might work for the Freestyle though so you could consider giving it a try. Still the most ergonomic mouse I've used to date.

1ris 10y ago

I can recommend the ErgoDox. It's somwhat similar and DIY, but much cheaper. For mine I payed not much over 100€.

icefox 10y ago
Link: https://ergodox-ez.com/ https://ergodox-ez.com/
- nazgob 10y ago
  295$ is not that much cheaper.
  - 1ris 10y ago
    The PCB is only 35€. And i had most other parts already.
- 1ris 10y ago
  That's the non-DIY variant. That's of course more expensive. I got more than enough cherry keyboards, so i had switches and some high quality keycaps (the black cherry ones), and the experience of building it. The PCBs only cost 35€.
- JustinGarrison 10y ago
  I've had the ergodox ez for a while now. Really like it. I had the advantage in the past and it didn't work well for me. I made a 3d printable tent kit for the Ergodox EZ which has worked really well for me too. https://github.com/rothgar/ergodox-ez-tent-kit https://github.com/rothgar/ergodox-ez-tent-kit
copperx 10y ago
I wonder why they aren't any direct Kinesis competitors. Their patent expired a few years ago.

bandali 10y ago

If you're looking for a mechanical ergonomic keyboard that you can also easily take with you, I suggest taking a look at Atreus[0], a 42-key column-staggered keyboard. I got one a while back. Haven't gotten around to publishing my build log, but building the keyboard was a lot of fun. With the somewhat steep learning curve out of the way, I've been really enjoying it and gone are the days of wrist pain. Oh, and I'm in no way affiliated with Phil or the project, just a very happy user dropping his 2¢ here. [0]: https://atreus.technomancy.us https://atreus.technomancy.us

gbrown_ 10y ago
Been eying these up for a while now. Also the firmware is completely open which is nice.
- aban 10y ago
  Absolutely; I'm using a slightly modified layout myself. Both the design and the firmware(s) are free software: - Design (GPLv3): https://github.com/technomancy/atreus https://github.com/technomancy/atreus - Current firmware (GPLv2+): https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus - Older firmware, great for learning (GPLv3): https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware
melling 10y ago
How are the wrists bent with the small size? Ideally, the keyboard should be split in half so your wrists are farther apart. There's a lot to consider when shopping for an ergonomic keyboard: https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heirloom-grade-keyboard-for-serious-typists/ https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heir...
- aban 10y ago
  That's true and perhaps surprisingly enough, despite the small size I don't find myself bending my wrists when typing. The fact that the layout is column-staggered helps a lot with this too: I don't have to bend my wrists sideways to reach the "corners" of the keyboard; I just move my hands back and forth.

kevinherron 10y ago

These keyboards are amazing. Hands/wrists stopped hurting after ~1 week of switching.

michaf 10y ago
I had a similar experience. Increasing pain levels gradually drove me away from from pursuing programming projects outside of work. First I tried the Kinesis Freestyle2, and while the pain got better, my hands could not adjust to the additional degree of freedom from having two keyboard pieces. Got the Advantage, and now I can code again for hours without any wrist pain. Highly recommended.

Athas 10y ago

I have used the original edition of this keyboard for some years now, and it is amazing. By far the best keyboard I have ever used. While I prefer the Cherry Blues on my older Das Keyboard, the layout of the Kinesis Advantage is incredibly comfortable and quite efficient. It does take some remapping to make it work well with Emacs, but that's all done with the keyboard firmware itself (i.e. no driver software needed).

lgleason 10y ago
If you want to solder in cherry blues yourself you might be able to buy the keyboard without the switches. Kinesis is good about things like that.

clessg 10y ago

Is it possible for Canadians to buy this? (Or those outside the US in general?)

shassard 10y ago
I've bought a few of the model 1 from http://www.ergocanada.com/ http://www.ergocanada.com/ in the past. Be prepared for a hefty markup and non-trivial shipping costs. It might be cheaper to buy in from the US in the end. You might also have some luck contacting vendors that sell other Kinesis gear and see if they'll special order it for you at a good price. http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis

koolba 10y ago

How long does it take to get used to using something like this? Is it worth the effort? How does it compare to a natural keyboard (the slightly more normal looking split one by Microsoft)?

iyn 10y ago
It took me about 5-7 days to get used to typing on Kinesis. The beginning was really frustrating, even though I touch type, I wanted to returned it because I thought the keyboard was overhyped. But when it clicked - I loved it! For me it's definitely worth the effort, it's a fantastic keyboard and helped with my wrists and general comfort while typing.
regularfry 10y ago
It depends how happy you are with membrane keys. I went from an MS Natural to a traditionally shaped Cherry, and not only did my RSI not come back, I found my typing speed went up. I don't know if the membranes in that generation of Natural were particularly soft, but I wouldn't go back for the shape alone. If I can have both the shape and mechanical keys, it might be a winner.
TheCondor 10y ago
Remarkably little time. I've ne Ed screed carpal tunnel but my ha S's feel noticeably more relaxed on the kinesis. They are a bit expensive but well worth it
cookiecaper 10y ago
It took me about 2 weeks until I was up to normal speed. It was probably a month before I could use it with zero difficulty. I used ktouchtype to train on it. The thing is if you have any idiosyncrasies in your touch typing, the Kinesis will not forgive them. The way that the keys are stepped down into different levels makes it difficult to use the "wrong" finger to reach the desired key. Of course, ultimately, that's for the better. It will just take you a little bit of time to unlearn some of the not-quite-official typing habits you may've developed over the years. I absolutely believe it's worth the effort. Wrist pain is almost never an issue for me anymore. The Kinesis is highly durable and cleans up very well. I used the "Natural" keyboard for years before I switched to the Kinesis. There's no comparison. I had to replace the MS keyboard twice a year or more. Been on the same Kinesis for about 4 years and there are no signs of it wearing out. The only downside is that sometimes there are weird firmware issues that sit unreconciled. For example, there is some incompatibility with the Intel USB 3.0 bus, Windows 7 (at the time, Win8 was the latest OS, and it didn't affect Win8; don't know if it affects Win10 or not), and the Kinesis. It simply isn't detected under that OS. No problems on other versions of Windows, other OSes, or other USB busses. This meant I couldn't use it on a Bootcamp'd MacBook Pro. Kinesis was apparently unable to get Intel to cooperate in debugging the issue with their chipset drivers. That said, it's an investment that I enthusiastically endorse if you're willing to commit to a couple weeks of learning curve (and since we're talking about the health of the hands needed to continue our careers here, you definitely should be).

Luc 10y ago

FINALLY real key switches for the F-keys. I have been making do without them for at least 7 years now, since they gave out after only a couple of years on my Kinesis Ergo Elan. Still using the same old plastic moulds with the weird off-centre label I see.

bosie 10y ago
Where do you see that? The photos look like the same rubbery things they are using in V1?
- nazgob 10y ago
  It's in the description, "Long-time Advantage users will rejoice to learn that we’ve replaced the mushy, rubber function keys with high-performance Cherry ML switches that offer the same low-force and tactile properties of the MX Brown.". Great change but I guess I will not drop 350$ just for that ;)
- lgleason 10y ago
  I beta tested the Advantage 2. They replaced the rubber keys with mechanical ones using the same size for the switch.
  - azinman2 10y ago
    Anything else that's diff? I almost never use my f keys do its not a big deal for me.
    - lgleason 10y ago
      The firmware with the ability to update it and do a lot more crazy stuff with the macros etc.. I'm not a heavy macro person but do a decent amount of remapping and liked that. Also the stuck shift/modifier keys has been fixed. If you currently have one, are happy with your setup and don't really use the f keys it might not make as much sense to do an upgrade. If you need another unit, have killed your current unit, or want to make the switch I would recommend this over the previous models.

_2wt4 10y ago

For those that may wonder "What's the point of a weird-looking keyboard?": Engelbart's Violin http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861

falcolas 10y ago
Thank you for the link; it and its references were interesting reads.

johnflan 10y ago

Wrist damage will be the new back damage.

benevol 10y ago

The main problem with buying the right keyboard is that you almost never can try it out (i.e. in a store). There are multiple variables, besides the general ergonomic question, mainly: You want to know how it feels to type, you want to know how it sounds to type (mostly: is it quiet or will you get on your co-worker's nerves?). I have just bought a Logitech in a store that did not allow me to take it out of the box to try it out. Once I've tried it out at home, I wanted to throw it in the trash immediately. F*ck them for selling like that. So, if you're looking for a start-up idea: Why not set up an online store with ALL brands (maybe focus on the premium segment which is ergo keyboards, first). Then you ship the customer keyboards to test at home. Once the customer's happy, he returns the last test keyboard and gets a brand new version of it.

vosper 10y ago
If you're in the US Amazon generally lets you return anything for any reason. "I tried it and I didn't like it" would be fine with them. It makes the process a bit slower, with shipping and all, but you could purchase all your candidate keyboards together and then return the one(s) you don't like.
- tga 10y ago
  Up until they decide you've returned too many things and they cancel all your accounts with them without recourse. As with most stores, I think Amazon returns are meant for actual problems and cases when things really don't work out, not for trying out hardware.
jseliger 10y ago
IIRC, Kinesis claims it has a two-month, no-bullshit return policy: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/customer-service/guarantee/ http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/customer-service/guarant... presumably because people want to try out their keyboards.

jtreminio 10y ago

Personally I am waiting for the KeyMouse[0], a physically-split keyboard with integrated mouse as part of the keyboard parts, so no need to lift hand from keyboard to perform mousely duties. Hopefully it is a great product, but I'm wondering if they couldn't have taken it a step further and made the keyboards at an angle to mimic natural arm positions. [0]: http://www.keymouse.com/ http://www.keymouse.com/

PostOnce 10y ago
It's a little overengineered for my taste. I would be very happy if microsoft on the Ergo 4000 instead of including a stupid, absolutely useless "zoom knob" thing just put a trackpoint there! http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg what a bafflingly missed opportunity.
- mamcx 10y ago
  And with mech keys. I'm toying the idea of build a clone, but my initial finds show will be more hard/costly than expected: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79603.msg2053482 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79603.msg2053482
- daxelrod 10y ago
  The good news is that you can at least remap what the zoom knob does using MS's IntelliType software. But you're right, hugely missed opportunity.
- kabdib 10y ago
  I'd pay good money for an Ergo keyboard with mechanical switches. The last decade or so of MS keyboards have been rubber-domed disasters. I cannot type on the things. I pre-ordered a couple KeyboardIO keyboards, and maybe I can make them work well with a little firmware noodling. Looks like November or later . . . .
lgleason 10y ago
I tried one at CES. Great concept but wasn't sold after trying it.

drivingmenuts 10y ago

Why is that thing so bloody expensive? The cost of parts for a keyboard are measure in pennies, for the most part. The manufacturing is ridiculously cheap. So, with all of that, what justifies a $350 price tag on any keyboard these days?

lgleason 10y ago
I've had conversations with Kinesis about this. Even though there is a enthusiast community there is not enough of a demand to send manufacturing overseas. Also, because of the key well design those PCB's need to be soldered by hand rather than wave soldering them. The net effect is that they are hand made in the United States which is why the cost is higher.
- rleigh 10y ago
  It's the same thing with Maltron keyboards, which have a similar 3D sculpted layout for some of their models. They are individually hand-wired. On the other hand, when you look at the cost of RSI they are well worth the cost when you consider the alternative. I tried out the Maltron and it didn't help me (it's not carpal tunnel), but I get along well with the Kinesis Freestyle 2. Worth every penny, I got one for home as well, and it helps greatly. When the alternative is finding another career, it's pretty inexpensive all considered.
  - lgleason 10y ago
    When you factor in how long these things last it ends up being a wash... a Kinesis will last 8-10 years vs most which start to have issues after 2.

kross 10y ago

Originally bought because of wrist pain, I've had the kinesis advantage for 16 years, I'm on my third one and I've worn out keys on each one from so much use. Luckily they shipped me new switches for free and allowed me to switch the myself (at my request due to timing). Fantastic service and product. I really do wear them out. With that said, all three exhibited the sticky modifier problem. I'm used to it but it always made me wonder if the internals were going bad. In March I preordered https://shop.keyboard.io https://shop.keyboard.io I'll be very interested to compare, and if it isn't as good or better, I won't hesitate to order the updated kinesis advantage.

icefox 10y ago
I'm in the exact same situation and have been pondering that keyboard also. Do you plan on doing a write up after you get it?
TylerE 10y ago
That looks sort of interesting, but as a programmer, the awkward positioning of tab and return, and the need to use modifier keys to get the directional arrows, {}, and [] just completely kills it for me.
- ldiracdelta 10y ago
  My experience with remapping my mind to the Advantage2 keyboard was that it took a week to be reasonably usable, and a month before I was back to my normal flow. All wrist pain gone. It is really nice to have many of your most used keys on your thumbs instead of your pinkies.
- mike_h 10y ago
  No modifier keys necessary for the directional arrows, if you mean the ones that move the cursor? They're under your pointer and middle finger on each side. Having return key (and backspace, space, and mod keys) always directly under your strongest fingers ends up feeling really natural and efficient, in my experience.
  - 10y ago

lgleason 10y ago

I was a beta tester of this. AMA

shassard 10y ago

Hey Kinesis, if you're reading here, I'd love to see a controller upgrade for the original Advantage to get around the sticky keys bug. It's not even a problem to lose the built-in USB hub. My two old Advantage keyboards are trucking along just fine otherwise!

zafiro17 10y ago

I bought the Advantage1 in 2008 and it's been one of my best keyboards ever since then. It's extremely comfortable. I wrote up a few paragraphs about my impressions here: http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-Style-with-the-Kinesis.html http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-Sty... The one common complaint is that they had used rubber keys instead of mechanical for the function keys. Looks like that issue is addressed in this second edition. For sheer key build quality, the Totally Ergonomic Keyboard is better. But the Kinesis is more ergonomically comfortable, and includes a couple of USB slots so it can function as a hub (few other ergo keyboards do that). I won't buy this new version because my own Ergo will probably last another 20 years - it's built that strongly! - and the rubber function keys don't bother me a bit.

dragonne 10y ago
Maybe this is new, but the TECK has terrible build quality IME. I have been using two (home and work) and both have accrued keys that don't work properly---some don't respond reliably, or at all, and some double-press. These are both Cherry browns. Firmware tweaks haven't helped.
- lgleason 10y ago
  I heard that there were some issues with the solder joints on the switches with the the TECK. When I went over to being a Kinesis user I had considered these but decided to go with the Advantage......am very glad I did.

wanderr 10y ago

I tried out the original and found it to be incredibly frustrating. I'm a fast typist, used to MS Natural keyboards,and I constantly felt like my fingers were "tripping" over the keys. I'm sure part of that is just getting used to the arrangement but I really felt like I was putting more strain on my wrists trying to move my fingers more deliberately to avoid hitting other keys.

loup-vaillant 10y ago
Slow down. The asymmetry you are used to with the (un)Natural keyboards induced reflexes that no longer work with the contoured. For instance, to hit many keys in staggered keyboard such as Microsoft's, you have to twist your wrist a little. If you counter this natural twist (instead of not twisting at all), this contracts your wrist even more than it used to. So slow down, it will get more natural over time.

allsystemsgo 10y ago

I have one of these on every computer I own. It's amazing. It saved my career. I physically cannot type on a regular keyboard anymore.

Luc 10y ago

Given the usual price multiples, this is going to be a nearly 500 euro keyboard in Europe (inc. VAT). E.g. Kinesis Advantage Pro in US: $359 ( http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/ http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/ ) In Holland: 390 Euro ex VAT ( https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage-toetsenbord https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage-toetsenbord ) So let's say for the Advantage 2 the $369 price becomes 400 Euro. Add 21% VAT and you end up paying about 484 euro, without shipping of course. Ouch.

eikenberry 10y ago
You can usually get it for around 10% off either when they run a sale or off Amazon. But yes, they are expensive, but they also age well and Kinesis is great with support. My first keyboard lasted 8 years before a couple of the switches started to go. Contacting them, they gave me the option of shipping me new switches for free (requires soldering) or buy a new key-well (the curved circuit boards) for around $30.
- Luc 10y ago
  The V1's don't age that well, though. My F-keys were starting to fail within a couple of years. They are rubber dome keys with a little conduction graphite layer on them, like remote control keys. Granted, the new version _should_ not have this problem.
  - lgleason 10y ago
    The key with the V1's is to remap keys you use frequently from the f-keys to something else, but if you use them a lot V2 will be a big upgrade for you.

alexkehayias 10y ago

Anyone know if the firmware allows you to program keys to emulate a mouse? I use this often with tmk_keyboard https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard firmware and found it to be just good enough to never use a mouse and keep the keyboard on your lap which is much better for my shoulders.

whyasker 10y ago
No, but contact the support ( http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-support/contact-tech/ http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-support/contac... ) they are wonderful.
- lgleason 10y ago
  Agreed, this could be a feature that could be added if there is enough demand with the firmware.
mtrimpe 10y ago
On OS X Karabiner probably lets you. Maybe their firmware could also if you contact them. I once got sent a debut version of their software for the foot pedals and it had tons of cool hidden functionality.
- raihansaputra 10y ago
  yep. but you're limited to using d as the trigger for the mouse. it should be customisable somewhat but i haven't explored about that.

dylanz 10y ago

I had RSI issues, and jumped into using a Kinesis Advantage and switching to Dvorak. I eventually went back to using my laptops keyboard, and still use Dvorak. I haven't had any RSI issues in the last 6+ years! I highly recommend switching to a Kinesis if you have hand/wrist pain and still need to work.

ifoundthetao 10y ago

Along with everyone else here, I had the same issue with my wrists, took a gamble, and got the keyboard. I haven't looked back. It's awesome. I let a co-worker borrow it, because he was having wrist issues, and he had the complete opposite effect with him. Wrist was turned down when he said it needed to be turned to the side. So he tried it for 15 minutes and returned it to me. So I guess it's not for everyone.

ScottBurson 10y ago

Another keyboard to look at is the Keyboardio Model 01: https://shop.keyboard.io/ https://shop.keyboard.io/ They're not shipping yet; as of their last update, estimated ship date is Nov. 1. I have a pair on order, but I haven't had a chance to try one, so I can only hope they work as nice as they look :-)

samdoshi 10y ago

You could always 3D print your own one... https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard Bonus points for having used Clojure to design it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4

rsipain 10y ago

Everyone always focuses on keyboards for RSI. While a great keyboard helps, removing the pressure off your wrists makes a massive difference. https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable-Armrest_Silver/dp/B00OFNFPMG https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable-Arm... These may make you look awkward at the office, but it takes all the strain out of your hands and wrists. Your weight is now on your forearm. Leaving your hands free to move. They articulate in every direction allowing full "wax on" "wax off" motions.

anotherevan 10y ago

I was lucky enough to find a local-ish store that had in-store demos available. They were nice enough to let me go in and try one out for an hour or so. I'm quite happy with my MS Ergo 4000, but I always wanted to try out the Kinesis. It does take a fair amount of getting use to. Initially feels quite funny to type on. The deal breaker for me at the time is that too many of the symbol keys are not in their usual locations, which is more significant when programming than writing prose. Here in the Antipodes the markup on these things is ridiculous (e.g., AU$550/US$420) so you really have to want one.

wilsonc91 10y ago

Wonder if this is worth buying over the advantage 1 in Canada with additional costs of getting it shipped over the borders. Can get the older model for $400 CDN on amazon.