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Edit: I spent a fair bit of time going country by country through a historical map for the sake of discussion, to elaborate on an uncommon point of view that mi
by lionhearted 17y ago
Edit: I spent a fair bit of time going country by country through a historical map for the sake of discussion, to elaborate on an uncommon point of view that might benefit thinking about. If I'm mistaken on the facts, or you disagree with the sentiment, would you care to discuss instead of just downvoting? I've spent a fair bit of time studying history, warfare, trade, and the rise and fall of civilizations, including British history, and I'd be happy to hear opposing points of view.
> Yes, after installing themselves as the local aristocracy and landowners, and relegating the natives to serfdom.
There's a map of the British Empire here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/The_British_Empire.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/The_Briti...
Almost every one of those regions has been more peaceful, stable, and prosperous than neighboring non-British managed regions. Almost all of them saw a decrease in prosperity once they left the British Crown, with only a couple exceptions.
Burma was literally the wealthiest country in Asia under British rule - nowdays, not so much.
India? Much further along than Pakistan and its non-British governed neighbors. Serious decline in prosperity, freedom, and safety; massive increase in religious violence and resurgence of the caste system after the British pulled out.
The United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand obviously turned out quite well largely modeling British systems of common law, trade, treaty, military organization, and government.
Egypt? Incredibly wealthy under the British, not so much under self-governance.
Ireland's a mixed bag, the British did some good and bad things there. I'm a quarter Irish and a quarter English by the way, and the British legitimately did some good things. The religious infighting was nasty, but Ireland is quite prosperous today, all of the UK is along with Wales and Scotland.
The African countries were much better under British Rule than non-British rule.
And then there's Hong Kong, which is where I am right now. Any doubts there?
Oh, I forgot Singapore, and having done jobs in both Malaysia and Singapore, who are neighbors of the same ethnicity, climate, geography, and natural resources, there's no doubt that Singapore is much better off.
So was it serfdom under the British Empire? Was it bad? You tell me - would you rather be under British governed Burma, or Burmese governed Burma? British Egypt or Egyptian Egypt? British Hong Kong or PRC Hong Kong? British India or Indian India?
I missed the island countries - Maldives, Sri Lanka, Fiji, Bermuda, and the rest of the British Caribbean and Polynesia. If you had your choice in 1700, would you want to be in one of the British governed islands or the local governed islands?
Yeah, self governance? Not high on my list of priorities. Sane, good governance, minimal violence and corruption, safety? High on my list of priorities. Again, keep me safe and leave me alone, and I don't care so much that I have a say in the government.
- lsb 17y agoAs a grad student in Classics, I encountered a Ghanaian (who came to Boston to study Latin) who said that Ghana was very fertile and resource-rich, so the Brits (who were the strongest at the time) chose it for themselves, leaving the French all the scraps in between. ("People come to Ghana from all over to buy supplies. Togo?!", he laughed, "in Togo there is nothing!", which I didn't quite know how to respond to.) If you assume that it's just British rule, that assumes that it's random.
- rdtsc 17y ago> If you assume that it's just British rule, that assumes that it's random. That is a very insightful point. That single sentence severely weakens grandparent's argument -- the un-stated assumption that the British rolled a die, and randomly picked among a set of uniformly desolate and completely undeveloped countries in order to colonize them.
- wisty 17y agoThat's because easily looted wealth, not poverty causes wars. (see my link - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1223098 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1223098) The British empire took places with an abundance of easily looted riches, and now less benevolent rebel leaders are doing the same.
- mahmud 17y agoI voted you down because I was on a 2 hour long conference call and didn't have time to refute your argument. You can reminisce about British/Euro colonialism all you want, but we as East Africans didn't want them. When given a choice between accepting the super power, or fighting them off, we chose the later and paid for it dearly. Independence didn't come to us cheap, we had to bloody the nose of the empire and send it packing :-) Neither you nor anyone else has the right to dictate the fate of a people. Sovereignty above prosperity my man. You say self governance is not high on your list. Nearly everyone on earth is either from a colonial power, or from a former colony. Unless you're from one of the few places on earth that escaped colonization; you're either implicitly rejecting your country's fight for independence, or you're a colonialist yourself, or a direct beneficiary, and have no right to speak for your so-called "subjects".