6 ms·

Reiterates the fact that the strength of America is its diversity and openness to attract and retain the brightest from around the world.

allendoerfer 10y ago
Which is something America can be proud of. It could improve the ratio the whole society benefits from it though, when you look at what for example the Nordic countries are doing without all these rockstars at the top.
United857 10y ago
Judging from their names, most of the US team members are of Chinese or Indian descent. Would be interesting to note if they were US born/raised (i.e. educated under the US educational system), or recent immigrants (i.e. primarily educated in those countries).
- adventured 10y ago
  It would make perfect sense if they were educated in the US, given the US is undergoing a math boom: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/03/the-math-revolution/426855/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/03/the-math...
- pcurve 10y ago
  I would guess that they were born here, or came here as a very young child. You'd need to have fairly good mastery of English to correctly interpret those questions.
  - gohrt 10y ago
    Maybe? The questions are translated into many languages, and many many non-Americans (especially well-educated non-Americans) learn technically capable English.
  - Swizec 10y ago
    I came here at 26. My English tests at native levels or above (it's been ~10 years since I took the test). Most people assume I'm a native speaker until they hear my accent and even that is going away. English really isn't that hard to learn.
    - pcurve 10y ago
      That's very impressive. Obviously everyone will experience different learning curve, but you are an exceptional individual and not a norm.
      - Swizec 10y ago
        I think it has more to do with the fact that most of the develop world starts learning English before they're 10 years old. And a lot of the music/movies/internat is in English as well.
        thinkpad20 10y ago
        I'm sure it also has to do with what country you were raised in, your exposure to media etc, your educational and support system, your level of motivation and dedication, and your aptitude. I taught English for three years in a foreign country to many smart people who struggled to learn the language. Although English is apparently not difficult for you, the claim that "English really isn't that hard" is clearly untrue for a great many learners. (Also there are a few minor errors in the above post ;))
        Swizec 10y ago
        As with anything, it depends. It's never seemed hard to me and I'm sure we can all agree that it's among the easier languages for people to learn. At least people coming from indoeuropean languages. As for errors, I've noticed that spending time in the US and using colloquial English a lot, has wreaked havoc on my English grammar. Or maybe it's the distance from schooling that did it.
    - 10y ago
  - fma 10y ago
    You must not know a lot of Chinese born Americans. English is taught in China starting at elementary school. Their literacy skills are higher than verbal, thus reading word problems would not be difficult.
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    That's totally false. Plenty of Chinese and Indian researchers are reading math papers and books in English, which requires the same level of English skills. I learned a foreign language to fluency at age 17, and math is one of the easiest things to read in the second language because the grammar is never very creative and the vocabulary is much more restricted than a novel or even a typical newspaper. (Tangentially, a lot of people born in raised in India speak English at near-native levels. Especially the well-educated classes that would be likely to move to the US and participate in something like this.)
  - fengwick3 10y ago
    I beg to differ. Math olympiad problems are typically short and concise, and mathematical phrasing, even when expressed in English, typically has clear bijections to equivalent terms in other languages.
- tn13 10y ago
  Not for this particular team but I had done a quick study of previous Indian-American members of winning teams. They were all US born.
  - fma 10y ago
    American born Indians are very cut throat in their schooling. My cousin runs an after school supplementary program and their best students are all Indians. If an Indian student refuses to do homework they get scolded by their parents. If an American student refuses, their parents beg and plead and eventually pulls their student out of the program. Not all cases are like that, but most are.
- padiyar83 10y ago
  And these are the exact kinds of people who have to work the hardest to get a US citizenship. On average it takes an Indian citizen 10 years more than immigrants from other countries to get a US citizenship. Its equally bad for people who are born in China too.
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    You have to realize that these people are far less violent than the people they're competing against. The state hands rights, exemptions and benefits only in so far as not doing so would result in violence. If you are tame there's no reason to give you anything.
    - macintux 10y ago
      That's a much weirder explanation than the US has always had a bias in favor of European (perhaps more accurately "white") immigrants.
douche 10y ago
Which is a great argument in support of making immigration easier for the highly intelligent and highly educated. Selfishly, enabling the best and brightest in the world to relocate into your country is a win. Particularly if those people were educated at US universities, taking internships at US companies, or doing US research. Nothing is gained by opening the floodgates to average and below average intelligence people, who we have already have a native surplus of.
- adventured 10y ago
  'A native surplus of below average intelligence people' I'd like to see you prove that claim while defining exactly what you mean by a surplus.
  - douche 10y ago
    I grew up in Appalachia. You don't have to look hard...
    - adventured 10y ago
      So did I, and I disagree with you. The part of Appalachia I grew up in for example, in Maryland, had among the best public schools in the state, and had among the highest testing outcomes in the state. That's still true to this day. I'd like to see you prove your claim and define what a surplus of below average intelligence people means. Given the small population base of Appalachia, you're not providing meaningful evidence of anything by referring to that location. The median standard of living in Appalachia is higher than that of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Russia, China, Latin America, and so on.
      - douche 10y ago
        What I see, is that the intellectual floor for high-quality employment that results in traditional middle-class security continues to rise. In my grandfather's generation, somebody who could chew gum and walk at the same time could get a decent union industrial job and live the proverbial "two cars and a picket fence" lifestyle. In my father's generation, you had to at least graduate high school, and odds are, you needed your wife to work as well. In my generation, a college degree is table-stakes, and really, you need a degree from one of the places that has more legitimacy, and really, a degree in one of the harder, more intellectually demanding subjects. Roughly, at every generation here, I'm approximating the floor of intelligence and ability to increase at around one standard deviation. > The median standard of living in Appalachia is higher than that of Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Italy. Fuck, that's bad news for Europe, I suppose. I knew people that had dirt floors and no indoor plumbing.
force_reboot 10y ago
There seems to be very non-Bayesian updating that goes on around this issue. When White people do well at something, people update their prior that White people experience White privilege that makes it easier for them to achieve these things. When non-White people achieve something, or White people do poorly, people update their prior that diversity is important to achieving good results.

allendoerfer 10y ago

Which is something America can be proud of. It could improve the ratio the whole society benefits from it though, when you look at what for example the Nordic countries are doing without all these rockstars at the top.

United857 10y ago

Judging from their names, most of the US team members are of Chinese or Indian descent. Would be interesting to note if they were US born/raised (i.e. educated under the US educational system), or recent immigrants (i.e. primarily educated in those countries).

adventured 10y ago
It would make perfect sense if they were educated in the US, given the US is undergoing a math boom: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/03/the-math-revolution/426855/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/03/the-math...
pcurve 10y ago
I would guess that they were born here, or came here as a very young child. You'd need to have fairly good mastery of English to correctly interpret those questions.
- gohrt 10y ago
  Maybe? The questions are translated into many languages, and many many non-Americans (especially well-educated non-Americans) learn technically capable English.
- Swizec 10y ago
  I came here at 26. My English tests at native levels or above (it's been ~10 years since I took the test). Most people assume I'm a native speaker until they hear my accent and even that is going away. English really isn't that hard to learn.
  - pcurve 10y ago
    That's very impressive. Obviously everyone will experience different learning curve, but you are an exceptional individual and not a norm.
    - Swizec 10y ago
      I think it has more to do with the fact that most of the develop world starts learning English before they're 10 years old. And a lot of the music/movies/internat is in English as well.
      - thinkpad20 10y ago
        I'm sure it also has to do with what country you were raised in, your exposure to media etc, your educational and support system, your level of motivation and dedication, and your aptitude. I taught English for three years in a foreign country to many smart people who struggled to learn the language. Although English is apparently not difficult for you, the claim that "English really isn't that hard" is clearly untrue for a great many learners. (Also there are a few minor errors in the above post ;))
        Swizec 10y ago
        As with anything, it depends. It's never seemed hard to me and I'm sure we can all agree that it's among the easier languages for people to learn. At least people coming from indoeuropean languages. As for errors, I've noticed that spending time in the US and using colloquial English a lot, has wreaked havoc on my English grammar. Or maybe it's the distance from schooling that did it.
  - 10y ago
- fma 10y ago
  You must not know a lot of Chinese born Americans. English is taught in China starting at elementary school. Their literacy skills are higher than verbal, thus reading word problems would not be difficult.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  That's totally false. Plenty of Chinese and Indian researchers are reading math papers and books in English, which requires the same level of English skills. I learned a foreign language to fluency at age 17, and math is one of the easiest things to read in the second language because the grammar is never very creative and the vocabulary is much more restricted than a novel or even a typical newspaper. (Tangentially, a lot of people born in raised in India speak English at near-native levels. Especially the well-educated classes that would be likely to move to the US and participate in something like this.)
- fengwick3 10y ago
  I beg to differ. Math olympiad problems are typically short and concise, and mathematical phrasing, even when expressed in English, typically has clear bijections to equivalent terms in other languages.
tn13 10y ago
Not for this particular team but I had done a quick study of previous Indian-American members of winning teams. They were all US born.
- fma 10y ago
  American born Indians are very cut throat in their schooling. My cousin runs an after school supplementary program and their best students are all Indians. If an Indian student refuses to do homework they get scolded by their parents. If an American student refuses, their parents beg and plead and eventually pulls their student out of the program. Not all cases are like that, but most are.
padiyar83 10y ago
And these are the exact kinds of people who have to work the hardest to get a US citizenship. On average it takes an Indian citizen 10 years more than immigrants from other countries to get a US citizenship. Its equally bad for people who are born in China too.
- 77pt77 10y ago
  You have to realize that these people are far less violent than the people they're competing against. The state hands rights, exemptions and benefits only in so far as not doing so would result in violence. If you are tame there's no reason to give you anything.
  - macintux 10y ago
    That's a much weirder explanation than the US has always had a bias in favor of European (perhaps more accurately "white") immigrants.

douche 10y ago

Which is a great argument in support of making immigration easier for the highly intelligent and highly educated. Selfishly, enabling the best and brightest in the world to relocate into your country is a win. Particularly if those people were educated at US universities, taking internships at US companies, or doing US research. Nothing is gained by opening the floodgates to average and below average intelligence people, who we have already have a native surplus of.

adventured 10y ago
'A native surplus of below average intelligence people' I'd like to see you prove that claim while defining exactly what you mean by a surplus.
- douche 10y ago
  I grew up in Appalachia. You don't have to look hard...
  - adventured 10y ago
    So did I, and I disagree with you. The part of Appalachia I grew up in for example, in Maryland, had among the best public schools in the state, and had among the highest testing outcomes in the state. That's still true to this day. I'd like to see you prove your claim and define what a surplus of below average intelligence people means. Given the small population base of Appalachia, you're not providing meaningful evidence of anything by referring to that location. The median standard of living in Appalachia is higher than that of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Russia, China, Latin America, and so on.
    - douche 10y ago
      What I see, is that the intellectual floor for high-quality employment that results in traditional middle-class security continues to rise. In my grandfather's generation, somebody who could chew gum and walk at the same time could get a decent union industrial job and live the proverbial "two cars and a picket fence" lifestyle. In my father's generation, you had to at least graduate high school, and odds are, you needed your wife to work as well. In my generation, a college degree is table-stakes, and really, you need a degree from one of the places that has more legitimacy, and really, a degree in one of the harder, more intellectually demanding subjects. Roughly, at every generation here, I'm approximating the floor of intelligence and ability to increase at around one standard deviation. > The median standard of living in Appalachia is higher than that of Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Italy. Fuck, that's bad news for Europe, I suppose. I knew people that had dirt floors and no indoor plumbing.

force_reboot 10y ago

There seems to be very non-Bayesian updating that goes on around this issue. When White people do well at something, people update their prior that White people experience White privilege that makes it easier for them to achieve these things. When non-White people achieve something, or White people do poorly, people update their prior that diversity is important to achieving good results.