6 ms·

The curse of the gifted programmer (ESR's email to Torvalds)

95 points by semmons 17y ago

swolchok 17y ago
(2000)
- rbanffy 17y ago
  ESR's deeper point is still valid. Take away Linux and Linus and what remains is that you should not try to tackle problems with genius alone. His point, BTW, was valid since well before Linux was born. Or Linus, or ESR.
  - swolchok 17y ago
    It is customary to tag articles that are year(s) out of date with their year.
    - rbanffy 17y ago
      Oh... Well reminded.
philwelch 17y ago
We saw this earlier this month: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1167754 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1167754
- jwecker 17y ago
  yes. I don't mind dups in general- good to get a refresher once in a while- but when it wasn't even a whole month ago...
tptacek 17y ago
The curse of the gifted programmer is apparently the need to deal with occasional direct emails from Eric Raymond.
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  HURR I DONT LIKE ERIC RAYMOND PLS VOTE ME UP TOO. 1) Ignores the content of the submission 2) Ignores the other discussion comments 3) Unsupported personal insult 4) Upvoted to 'best comment' position. Look, pretend it's about someone else - Ray Monderic or someone - doesn't the idea that early formalising your development procedures pays benefits for other people and eases the transition from a system small enough that the leader can manage it to a system big enough that they can't have some merit?
  - gn 17y ago
    Like it or not, Eric S Raymond is to the hacker community what Louis Althusser is to French philosophers. Or Stanley Aronowitz to pomo sociology. Or Mark Foley to the Republican caucus. Or Crystal Gail Mangum to feminist bloggers. Every time an outsider first realizes how this guy was universally accepted as one of our leaders once we've taken a collective kick in the gut. The sooner people forget about this clown the better. Your parent is an unsupported personal insult, you're not wrong about that, but if it discourages others from advertising esr essays it's legitimate and meaningful.
    - jodrellblank 17y ago
      Your post is also an unsupported personal insult and you also feel that's enough justification, that I shouldn't read anything by ESR solely because you don't like him, and you are also being upvoted for it. It's bizarre.
  - njn 17y ago
    Yes, but perhaps tptacek was being funny :)
  - tptacek 17y ago
    While I object to some of your argument (for instance, note the timestamps on the comments), the dynamics of the karma scores on our two comments is pretty fascinating. I was shocked to see I'd gotten voted up so rapidly, and I'm amused by how my score is eroding into yours. Linus Torvalds is a gifted programmer. Eric Raymond is an insufferable blowhard. From the very first sentence of his mail, he's making it apparent that he is part of the senior cadre that makes the Internet works (to borrow a turn of phrase) and that he is condescending to explain to Linus how this software development stuff really works. I think my comment does a rather fair job of cutting to the quick of the issue, but I respect your take on it as well.
gcb 17y ago
Why link to a loose copy? why not the hundreds of mailing list archive where you can read the prequel, or the followup?
- rpdillon 17y ago
  Because the discussion is anticlimactic when viewed from that perspective. It has lots of message, the vast majority of which are technical. AFAICT, Linus never responded to ESR's email. But, ESR's point is still sound, which is why I suspect this got posted in the first place. Have a look yourself: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0240.html http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0240.h...
  - guelo 17y ago
    Not true, I found several emails in the thread interesting. For example, this one where Linus gives a good rant on DRY vs KISS, http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12 http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12
- sp332 17y ago
  Torvalds never really followed up, with just one paragraph a lot later in the thread: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0241.html http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0241.h... "On the whole, people tend to _want_ to share, because it ends up being the easier "quick hack" in many cases. So I'm not worried about that part overmuch. I'm worried about people who share even when it doesn't make sense. And I'm worried about people having bad interfaces, which makes even sensible sharing end up as a experiment in horror. That's why I'm so un-interested in the "let's share" argument. I don't think that is where the problems are. " The more interesting "follow-up" is historical, when kernel development started using BitKeeper and then git, instead of Linus' email inbox.
  - joe_the_user 17y ago
    But that reply actually doesn't sound at all like someone blinded by their own ability but rather someone thinking very keenly about where the problems are likely to be. Linus can come off as smart but an asshole in person. But despite this, it seems like his smart extends somewhat into smart insights about human nature.
tjic 17y ago
This line of ESR's > As Linux grows, there will come a time when your raw talent is not enough. is the key bit. ...and I think it was proven true several years back, when Linus found it increasing hard to keep on top of dealing with the inflow of bug fixes, patches, features, etc. Raw talent is never enough for the really big problems. Proper use of routines and procedures are a brain amplifying technology.
- memoryfault 17y ago
  Yes, and so he moved on to an easier to manage project by starting to write git from scratch.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    Git, internally, is very simple.
- boundlessdreamz 17y ago
  It was not because of the complexity of the code, but because of the workflow and poor version control systems. Bitkeeper helped him manage it first and then git was written
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
mahmud 17y ago
Eric Raymond comes off patronizing with his "listen to grandpa" bit. He shrouds his argument in a weird "Unix tradition" argument, and appeals to heritage, culture and other nonsense as if computing was his village and he the elder.
- memoryfault 17y ago
  I think the intent was to make Linus feel like the child he was (is?). I thought it worked. Linus is quite patronizing in practically all of his e-mails, so I don't see why others wouldn't return the favor.
  - cabalamat 17y ago
    > I think the intent was to make Linus feel like the child he was At the time the email was written, Linus was 30. > Linus is quite patronizing in practically all of his e-mails Maybe so, but -- for me at least -- Linus has earned more of a right to be patronising than ESR has.
    - mahmud 17y ago
      Who voted down this guy? Linus earned his stripes; 30, 20 or 10 years old, the man delivered a world-class piece of software. Patronizing him is just pulling non-existent rank so ESR doesn't feel like a fish out of water. Remember, while Linus oversaw the hottest piece of Unix software to come in decades, Eric Raymond was making a living off of "seniority" and "lore". Eric Raymond is the spokesperson of an "in-crowd" whose membership he didn't earn.
    - memoryfault 17y ago
      >At the time the email was written, Linus was 30. I don't see what your point is. I clearly didn't mean that he was literally a child.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
joe_the_user 17y ago
The general point that sooner or later raw ability won't carry someone is worthwhile. I am curious whether splitting drivers early is a symptom of this. I've personally seen too much code sharing as a more symptom of hubris than too little code sharing.
gonzo 17y ago
ESR doesn't have a clue. Linus has at least two to rub together. Why do you quote ESR as though he's some demi-god? He's a freak who takes credit for other people's work without so much as a citation.
- kiba 17y ago
  Can you please justify your unsubstantiated ad-hominem attacks on ESR? Also, show us why ESR doesn't have a clue.
  - enneff 17y ago
    Shouldn't the onus be on ESR and any of his supporters to demonstrate why he does have a clue?
    - jasonlotito 17y ago
      I think the fact that Linus eventually took his advise and works that way now is a strong indicator of ESR being correct. Git is the prime example of ESR being right.
matttibbals69 17y ago
I'm Matt Tibbals, pedophile. http://www.matthewtibbals.com http://www.matthewtibbals.com
acqq 17y ago
ESR is wrong, Linus is right. The letter should be read in context, and it demonstrates the blunder of ESR. Here is Linus' letter on which ESR responded: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0201.html http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0201.h... And here are Linus' points, in short: http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12 http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12

95 points by semmons 17y ago

swolchok 17y ago

(2000)

rbanffy 17y ago
ESR's deeper point is still valid. Take away Linux and Linus and what remains is that you should not try to tackle problems with genius alone. His point, BTW, was valid since well before Linux was born. Or Linus, or ESR.
- swolchok 17y ago
  It is customary to tag articles that are year(s) out of date with their year.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    Oh... Well reminded.

philwelch 17y ago

We saw this earlier this month: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1167754 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1167754

jwecker 17y ago
yes. I don't mind dups in general- good to get a refresher once in a while- but when it wasn't even a whole month ago...

tptacek 17y ago

The curse of the gifted programmer is apparently the need to deal with occasional direct emails from Eric Raymond.

jodrellblank 17y ago
HURR I DONT LIKE ERIC RAYMOND PLS VOTE ME UP TOO. 1) Ignores the content of the submission 2) Ignores the other discussion comments 3) Unsupported personal insult 4) Upvoted to 'best comment' position. Look, pretend it's about someone else - Ray Monderic or someone - doesn't the idea that early formalising your development procedures pays benefits for other people and eases the transition from a system small enough that the leader can manage it to a system big enough that they can't have some merit?
- gn 17y ago
  Like it or not, Eric S Raymond is to the hacker community what Louis Althusser is to French philosophers. Or Stanley Aronowitz to pomo sociology. Or Mark Foley to the Republican caucus. Or Crystal Gail Mangum to feminist bloggers. Every time an outsider first realizes how this guy was universally accepted as one of our leaders once we've taken a collective kick in the gut. The sooner people forget about this clown the better. Your parent is an unsupported personal insult, you're not wrong about that, but if it discourages others from advertising esr essays it's legitimate and meaningful.
  - jodrellblank 17y ago
    Your post is also an unsupported personal insult and you also feel that's enough justification, that I shouldn't read anything by ESR solely because you don't like him, and you are also being upvoted for it. It's bizarre.
- njn 17y ago
  Yes, but perhaps tptacek was being funny :)
- tptacek 17y ago
  While I object to some of your argument (for instance, note the timestamps on the comments), the dynamics of the karma scores on our two comments is pretty fascinating. I was shocked to see I'd gotten voted up so rapidly, and I'm amused by how my score is eroding into yours. Linus Torvalds is a gifted programmer. Eric Raymond is an insufferable blowhard. From the very first sentence of his mail, he's making it apparent that he is part of the senior cadre that makes the Internet works (to borrow a turn of phrase) and that he is condescending to explain to Linus how this software development stuff really works. I think my comment does a rather fair job of cutting to the quick of the issue, but I respect your take on it as well.

gcb 17y ago

Why link to a loose copy? why not the hundreds of mailing list archive where you can read the prequel, or the followup?

rpdillon 17y ago
Because the discussion is anticlimactic when viewed from that perspective. It has lots of message, the vast majority of which are technical. AFAICT, Linus never responded to ESR's email. But, ESR's point is still sound, which is why I suspect this got posted in the first place. Have a look yourself: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0240.html http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0240.h...
- guelo 17y ago
  Not true, I found several emails in the thread interesting. For example, this one where Linus gives a good rant on DRY vs KISS, http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12 http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12
sp332 17y ago
Torvalds never really followed up, with just one paragraph a lot later in the thread: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0241.html http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0241.h... "On the whole, people tend to _want_ to share, because it ends up being the easier "quick hack" in many cases. So I'm not worried about that part overmuch. I'm worried about people who share even when it doesn't make sense. And I'm worried about people having bad interfaces, which makes even sensible sharing end up as a experiment in horror. That's why I'm so un-interested in the "let's share" argument. I don't think that is where the problems are. " The more interesting "follow-up" is historical, when kernel development started using BitKeeper and then git, instead of Linus' email inbox.
- joe_the_user 17y ago
  But that reply actually doesn't sound at all like someone blinded by their own ability but rather someone thinking very keenly about where the problems are likely to be. Linus can come off as smart but an asshole in person. But despite this, it seems like his smart extends somewhat into smart insights about human nature.

tjic 17y ago

This line of ESR's > As Linux grows, there will come a time when your raw talent is not enough. is the key bit. ...and I think it was proven true several years back, when Linus found it increasing hard to keep on top of dealing with the inflow of bug fixes, patches, features, etc. Raw talent is never enough for the really big problems. Proper use of routines and procedures are a brain amplifying technology.

memoryfault 17y ago
Yes, and so he moved on to an easier to manage project by starting to write git from scratch.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  Git, internally, is very simple.
boundlessdreamz 17y ago
It was not because of the complexity of the code, but because of the workflow and poor version control systems. Bitkeeper helped him manage it first and then git was written

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

mahmud 17y ago

Eric Raymond comes off patronizing with his "listen to grandpa" bit. He shrouds his argument in a weird "Unix tradition" argument, and appeals to heritage, culture and other nonsense as if computing was his village and he the elder.

memoryfault 17y ago
I think the intent was to make Linus feel like the child he was (is?). I thought it worked. Linus is quite patronizing in practically all of his e-mails, so I don't see why others wouldn't return the favor.
- cabalamat 17y ago
  > I think the intent was to make Linus feel like the child he was At the time the email was written, Linus was 30. > Linus is quite patronizing in practically all of his e-mails Maybe so, but -- for me at least -- Linus has earned more of a right to be patronising than ESR has.
  - mahmud 17y ago
    Who voted down this guy? Linus earned his stripes; 30, 20 or 10 years old, the man delivered a world-class piece of software. Patronizing him is just pulling non-existent rank so ESR doesn't feel like a fish out of water. Remember, while Linus oversaw the hottest piece of Unix software to come in decades, Eric Raymond was making a living off of "seniority" and "lore". Eric Raymond is the spokesperson of an "in-crowd" whose membership he didn't earn.
  - memoryfault 17y ago
    >At the time the email was written, Linus was 30. I don't see what your point is. I clearly didn't mean that he was literally a child.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

joe_the_user 17y ago

The general point that sooner or later raw ability won't carry someone is worthwhile. I am curious whether splitting drivers early is a symptom of this. I've personally seen too much code sharing as a more symptom of hubris than too little code sharing.

gonzo 17y ago

ESR doesn't have a clue. Linus has at least two to rub together. Why do you quote ESR as though he's some demi-god? He's a freak who takes credit for other people's work without so much as a citation.

kiba 17y ago
Can you please justify your unsubstantiated ad-hominem attacks on ESR? Also, show us why ESR doesn't have a clue.
- enneff 17y ago
  Shouldn't the onus be on ESR and any of his supporters to demonstrate why he does have a clue?
  - jasonlotito 17y ago
    I think the fact that Linus eventually took his advise and works that way now is a strong indicator of ESR being correct. Git is the prime example of ESR being right.

matttibbals69 17y ago

I'm Matt Tibbals, pedophile. http://www.matthewtibbals.com http://www.matthewtibbals.com

acqq 17y ago

ESR is wrong, Linus is right. The letter should be read in context, and it demonstrates the blunder of ESR. Here is Linus' letter on which ESR responded: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0201.html http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/0201.h... And here are Linus' points, in short: http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12 http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/22/12