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One of my buddies here in China (who's been here for ever) told me that the China always say that we in the West talk too much. That we talk talk talk and never

One of my buddies here in China (who's been here for ever) told me that the China always say that we in the West talk too much. That we talk talk talk and never actually get anything done. In China people just do thing - often stupid things, but it's often the quickest way to learn how to do it right.

seanmcdirmid 10y ago
They've been talking about this since...2010. I'm nit sure even the Chinese are crazy enough to try this, and it doesn't really solve a problem Beijing has.
geezerjay 10y ago
> One of my buddies here in China (who's been here for ever) told me that the China always say that we in the West talk too much. The main reason why "the West" talk too much is because they talk about safety concerns, and actually tackle potential problems. China doesn't, and when the proverbial shit hits the fan they simply try to cover up the result of their incompetence, too often even at the expense of human lives. Case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision Another reason why "the West" talk too much is because in "the West" projects need to have a sound business model, as there isn't a dictatorship that is able to throw piles of cash at problems just to save face and resorts to industrial levels of censorship to stop these problems from being discussed. It's easy to have successes if you use force to silence anyone who dares point out any failure.
- chrischen 10y ago
  Well also checks and balances is a core concept of American government. It's designed to prevent an overly strong central government albeit at the expense of getting things done.
- icebraining 10y ago
  While the attempt of cover-up was ridiculous, the event as a whole doesn't seem worse than Spain's derailment that happened two years later, in which many more were killed, and for which all blame was laid on the driver.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 10y ago
    Yep. Or the Valencia metro accident, where there is some quite convincing evidence that the authorities hid evidence and instructed employees to give a convenient version in their declarations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_Metro_derailment#Subsequent_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_Metro_derailment#Subs...
    - dclowd9901 10y ago
      Or the myriad deadly Amtrak incidents that dwarf that toll.
      - billskills 10y ago
        Unless by "dwarf" you mean "less than 10% more" and by "myriad" you mean "exactly one", I invite you to join those of us who live in the real world. You don't have to like Amtrak, but there's plenty of nonsense on the Internet without you adding to it.
        dclowd9901 10y ago
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/13/what-we-know-about-amtraks-history-of-accidents-injuries-and-deaths/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/13/what-...
  - geezerjay 10y ago
    > the event as a whole doesn't seem worse than Spain's derailment that happened two years later Spanish authorities didn't tried to censor the accident, nor did they tried to bury the wreckage with corpses and human remains still mangled within the wagons. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8658959/Anger-in-China-as-bodies-fall-from-carriages-during-train-crash-clean-up.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8658959... > in which many more were killed Honestly, with all the censorship forced by the chinese communist party regarding the accident, how can anyone really tell? In fact, how many accidents have occurred since then that were successfully covered up?
- optforfon 10y ago
  You're right, but you're also thinking way too big-picture were saving face and corruption play a daily role. You're missing the crazy chaos that happens on a daily basis on a small scale - which is both positive and negative. This same friend for instance decided to open up a restaurant. It's on rooftop area with a few other bars. It's zoned as residential property but that's not stopping anyone. In general, as long as you're not bothering anything no one cares about any regulations (again, on the small scale. If you you're big and have money and people want to fuck you over then there is no escaping it. On paper this is a socialist system and they have the laundry list of regulation to back it up). He doesn't get permits to build walls, to put in a bar, to tear out half the place and put in something completely new. There is no health inspection, liquor license or firesafety inspection. It's basically, go rent a property, hire a bunch of people to do the manual labor, remodel and you're cookin'! In a way the little guy has a leg up on all the commercial chains that do have to follow the rules And everything in China kinda works like that. No months of planning, chasing investors, getting permits, getting licenses pussy-footing around and figuring out your supply chain. They just go and do it. It's the bootstrapper's dream. Along the way some walls collapse and some people get food poisoning, but this place is changing at a astronomical rate. You can't contain it
  - pnathan 10y ago
    That is, I think, how the US used to be prior to the 60s. Take a look at the reminescences of this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gergel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gergel
- terasoans 10y ago
  I guess all these countries don't care about safety either... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Saxony-Anhalt_train_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Saxony-Anhalt_train_colli... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalfsen_train_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalfsen_train_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Chester,_Pennsylvania,_train_derailment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Chester,_Pennsylvania,_tr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermalle-sous-Huy_train_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermalle-sous-Huy_train_collis...
mattmanser 10y ago
That really hasn't worked well for the Chinese in the past. The Great Sparrow Campaign and the Great Leap Forward immediately springs to mind. Tens of millions of dead in each one. Does your buddy not know anything about recent Chinese history? I guess I got taught it randomly in school (UK, happened to be on the History GCSE), so perhaps it's forgivable.

seanmcdirmid 10y ago

They've been talking about this since...2010. I'm nit sure even the Chinese are crazy enough to try this, and it doesn't really solve a problem Beijing has.

geezerjay 10y ago

> One of my buddies here in China (who's been here for ever) told me that the China always say that we in the West talk too much. The main reason why "the West" talk too much is because they talk about safety concerns, and actually tackle potential problems. China doesn't, and when the proverbial shit hits the fan they simply try to cover up the result of their incompetence, too often even at the expense of human lives. Case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision Another reason why "the West" talk too much is because in "the West" projects need to have a sound business model, as there isn't a dictatorship that is able to throw piles of cash at problems just to save face and resorts to industrial levels of censorship to stop these problems from being discussed. It's easy to have successes if you use force to silence anyone who dares point out any failure.

chrischen 10y ago
Well also checks and balances is a core concept of American government. It's designed to prevent an overly strong central government albeit at the expense of getting things done.
icebraining 10y ago
While the attempt of cover-up was ridiculous, the event as a whole doesn't seem worse than Spain's derailment that happened two years later, in which many more were killed, and for which all blame was laid on the driver.
- Al-Khwarizmi 10y ago
  Yep. Or the Valencia metro accident, where there is some quite convincing evidence that the authorities hid evidence and instructed employees to give a convenient version in their declarations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_Metro_derailment#Subsequent_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_Metro_derailment#Subs...
  - dclowd9901 10y ago
    Or the myriad deadly Amtrak incidents that dwarf that toll.
    - billskills 10y ago
      Unless by "dwarf" you mean "less than 10% more" and by "myriad" you mean "exactly one", I invite you to join those of us who live in the real world. You don't have to like Amtrak, but there's plenty of nonsense on the Internet without you adding to it.
      - dclowd9901 10y ago
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/13/what-we-know-about-amtraks-history-of-accidents-injuries-and-deaths/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/13/what-...
- geezerjay 10y ago
  > the event as a whole doesn't seem worse than Spain's derailment that happened two years later Spanish authorities didn't tried to censor the accident, nor did they tried to bury the wreckage with corpses and human remains still mangled within the wagons. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8658959/Anger-in-China-as-bodies-fall-from-carriages-during-train-crash-clean-up.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8658959... > in which many more were killed Honestly, with all the censorship forced by the chinese communist party regarding the accident, how can anyone really tell? In fact, how many accidents have occurred since then that were successfully covered up?
optforfon 10y ago
You're right, but you're also thinking way too big-picture were saving face and corruption play a daily role. You're missing the crazy chaos that happens on a daily basis on a small scale - which is both positive and negative. This same friend for instance decided to open up a restaurant. It's on rooftop area with a few other bars. It's zoned as residential property but that's not stopping anyone. In general, as long as you're not bothering anything no one cares about any regulations (again, on the small scale. If you you're big and have money and people want to fuck you over then there is no escaping it. On paper this is a socialist system and they have the laundry list of regulation to back it up). He doesn't get permits to build walls, to put in a bar, to tear out half the place and put in something completely new. There is no health inspection, liquor license or firesafety inspection. It's basically, go rent a property, hire a bunch of people to do the manual labor, remodel and you're cookin'! In a way the little guy has a leg up on all the commercial chains that do have to follow the rules And everything in China kinda works like that. No months of planning, chasing investors, getting permits, getting licenses pussy-footing around and figuring out your supply chain. They just go and do it. It's the bootstrapper's dream. Along the way some walls collapse and some people get food poisoning, but this place is changing at a astronomical rate. You can't contain it
- pnathan 10y ago
  That is, I think, how the US used to be prior to the 60s. Take a look at the reminescences of this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gergel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gergel
terasoans 10y ago
I guess all these countries don't care about safety either... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Saxony-Anhalt_train_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Saxony-Anhalt_train_colli... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalfsen_train_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalfsen_train_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Chester,_Pennsylvania,_train_derailment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Chester,_Pennsylvania,_tr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermalle-sous-Huy_train_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermalle-sous-Huy_train_collis...

mattmanser 10y ago

That really hasn't worked well for the Chinese in the past. The Great Sparrow Campaign and the Great Leap Forward immediately springs to mind. Tens of millions of dead in each one. Does your buddy not know anything about recent Chinese history? I guess I got taught it randomly in school (UK, happened to be on the History GCSE), so perhaps it's forgivable.