5 ms·

Nothing wrong with language laws, people just need to stop being lazy. Learning a second language isn't that hard.

by Mikeb85 10y ago

piva00 10y ago
It's still a big effort, learning a language properly is not something you do for 2 hours on the weekend and get proficient at it. Even more so if you don't plan to use that language for anything else afterwards. It isn't that hard but isn't that easy either.
- ivoras 10y ago
  > It's still a big effort, learning a language properly is not something you do for 2 hours on the weekend and get proficient at it. There's a big difference between being really proficient and knowing enough to be productive. In any case, like other skills, everyone gets better by actually doing it, but they need to start first.
system16 10y ago
Learning to order lunch or talk about the weather in a second language is not that hard. Communicating at a professional level takes years of practice. For most people - especially mid-career adults with limited time - that's not going to happen.
- Raphmedia 10y ago
  I work in tech in Montreal. People speak in english. You can speak english all day if you want. My clients speak in english. We speak in english. We create websites that are 100% english for clients who are based in the USA. What isn't allowed it having a workplace where the local (who can't speak english) have no chance of being hired because of the language. That is also why the employer must provide all workplace tools with french label. All else is lies, stereotypes and people not understanding the law.
  - quicknir 10y ago
    No that's not all it is, and the person who does not understand the law is you. Quebec language laws require for instance that commercial signs not only have French, but that French be predominant. Why does a sign having big print in English and small print in French, prevent a native French speaker from working there? Also, realistically if you hire many programmers who only speak English, it's simply not realistic to hire a programmer who speaks French exclusively because he can't communicate with the team. Putting "copiez" on your photocopier does not alleviate that. These laws are discrimination, pure and simple, and have been found as such by the Canadian Supreme Court on many occasions. Most Quebecois just don't care about paltry things like individual rights, where their language is involved.
    - Raphmedia 10y ago
      > Quebec language laws require for instance that commercial signs not only have French, but that French be predominant. No. If that was true, Best Buy would have big billboards that say "Meilleur Achat". "Canadian Tire" would be "Pneus Canadiens". They don't. The law don't ask for it. > Also, realistically if you hire many programmers who only speak English, it's simply not realistic to hire a programmer who speaks French exclusively because he can't communicate with the team. That's the entire point of the law. It's the very reason it's there. To prevent business from hiring an all english staff which would prevent local people from working there. Edit: Some of it may not make sense to you because we are working in the tech industry. The abuses those laws are there to protect against happen mostly to minimum wage workers in the industrial sector. Some people could get hurt if the machines are not labelled correctly. I admit that stickers on the photocopying machine is a joke but it could be life and death when we are talking about a big industrial machines filled with saws.
robotresearcher 10y ago
Many, many of the people injecting money into Vancouver already speak a second language just fine. French would be a third at least.
raverbashing 10y ago
Apprendre une deuxième langue n'est pas le problème, mais la Loi 101 derange beaucoup de gens
- kejaed 10y ago
  Exactly, how many people coming to Montreal would be happy that their kids could only go to school in French?
  - pjonesdotca 10y ago
    Probably about as many parents who are fighting to get their kids in French Immersion in the rest of Canada. I can't speak about anywhere other than Toronto but here it's quite sought after, second language for children. Especially amongst first generation immigrants like myself.
    - myth_drannon 10y ago
      That's not because of French language, they would try even if it had Zulu immersion. It's just that it's cheaper than private schools, but you still get good students and quality environment
      - mrtron 10y ago
        Exactly. The school rankings are the driver here, not french language.
      - melolife 10y ago
        Correct. The parents that care put their children into French immersion because other like-minded parents do so and their children are high-achieving. Any teacher will tell you that parenting is the biggest determining factor in academic achievement, and as a result French immersion is effectively the "academic stream" in the Canadian school system. It also receives additional federal funding which is not available to English programs.
      - 10y ago
cvinson 10y ago
Try having a startup in Montreal. Our has been targeted by the language police, and is being forced to translate not just our front end, but our blog and social media presences. It doesn't matter that 0.01% of customers are in Quebec, and that we have determined that there is no market for our product in french. Anyone can send an anonymous message to this government agency and it will audit your business to make sure you are compliant. Have more than 50 employees? Make sure the copy button on your photocopier says "copiez" or you'll have to put stickers over it (true story, happened at my brother's pharma startup). The sad thing is that most Montrealers have the attitude that "you're in Montreal, you should learn french." The problem is, this law goes far beyond that, and is a serious impediment for Montreal startups.
- miguelrochefort 10y ago
  This is accurate. The company I work for had to put French stickers on every key of every keyboard. They had to put stickers on the microwave oven as well...
  - serge2k 10y ago
    I hate Canadian bilingual keyboards so much.
    - Mikeb85 10y ago
      This is for real. US alt international layout on Linux is great, best ever. And Azerty > Canadian bilingual keyboards too. Canadian bilingual keyboards suck for writing in both French and English.
    - nayuki 10y ago
      I hate how the left shift key is split, and how the backslash moves to the enter position. Despite being in Canada, I only buy laptops with US keyboards.
    - frandroid 10y ago
      Wait, you actually look at the keys? You can use whatever keyboard but keep it mapped out to your favourite layout. I personally use a Canadian bilingual layout but haven't owned such a keyboard in quite a while, since work doesn't look fondly in buying a MacBook Pro with a layout that a future inheritor would bristle at... Now if you mean that you really hate the layout, it's really anti-programming, and sometimes I wonder why I stick to it. :) It's so easy to use a layout switching keyboard shortcut...

Nothing wrong with language laws, people just need to stop being lazy. Learning a second language isn't that hard.

by Mikeb85 10y ago

Nothing wrong with language laws, people just need to stop being lazy. Learning a second language isn't that hard.

It's still a big effort, learning a language properly is not something you do for 2 hours on the weekend and get proficient at it. Even more so if you don't plan to use that language for anything else afterwards. It isn't that hard but isn't that easy either.

ivoras 10y ago
> It's still a big effort, learning a language properly is not something you do for 2 hours on the weekend and get proficient at it. There's a big difference between being really proficient and knowing enough to be productive. In any case, like other skills, everyone gets better by actually doing it, but they need to start first.

system16 10y ago

Learning to order lunch or talk about the weather in a second language is not that hard. Communicating at a professional level takes years of practice. For most people - especially mid-career adults with limited time - that's not going to happen.

Raphmedia 10y ago
I work in tech in Montreal. People speak in english. You can speak english all day if you want. My clients speak in english. We speak in english. We create websites that are 100% english for clients who are based in the USA. What isn't allowed it having a workplace where the local (who can't speak english) have no chance of being hired because of the language. That is also why the employer must provide all workplace tools with french label. All else is lies, stereotypes and people not understanding the law.
- quicknir 10y ago
  No that's not all it is, and the person who does not understand the law is you. Quebec language laws require for instance that commercial signs not only have French, but that French be predominant. Why does a sign having big print in English and small print in French, prevent a native French speaker from working there? Also, realistically if you hire many programmers who only speak English, it's simply not realistic to hire a programmer who speaks French exclusively because he can't communicate with the team. Putting "copiez" on your photocopier does not alleviate that. These laws are discrimination, pure and simple, and have been found as such by the Canadian Supreme Court on many occasions. Most Quebecois just don't care about paltry things like individual rights, where their language is involved.
  - Raphmedia 10y ago
    > Quebec language laws require for instance that commercial signs not only have French, but that French be predominant. No. If that was true, Best Buy would have big billboards that say "Meilleur Achat". "Canadian Tire" would be "Pneus Canadiens". They don't. The law don't ask for it. > Also, realistically if you hire many programmers who only speak English, it's simply not realistic to hire a programmer who speaks French exclusively because he can't communicate with the team. That's the entire point of the law. It's the very reason it's there. To prevent business from hiring an all english staff which would prevent local people from working there. Edit: Some of it may not make sense to you because we are working in the tech industry. The abuses those laws are there to protect against happen mostly to minimum wage workers in the industrial sector. Some people could get hurt if the machines are not labelled correctly. I admit that stickers on the photocopying machine is a joke but it could be life and death when we are talking about a big industrial machines filled with saws.

robotresearcher 10y ago

Many, many of the people injecting money into Vancouver already speak a second language just fine. French would be a third at least.

raverbashing 10y ago

Apprendre une deuxième langue n'est pas le problème, mais la Loi 101 derange beaucoup de gens

kejaed 10y ago
Exactly, how many people coming to Montreal would be happy that their kids could only go to school in French?
- pjonesdotca 10y ago
  Probably about as many parents who are fighting to get their kids in French Immersion in the rest of Canada. I can't speak about anywhere other than Toronto but here it's quite sought after, second language for children. Especially amongst first generation immigrants like myself.
  - myth_drannon 10y ago
    That's not because of French language, they would try even if it had Zulu immersion. It's just that it's cheaper than private schools, but you still get good students and quality environment
    - mrtron 10y ago
      Exactly. The school rankings are the driver here, not french language.
    - melolife 10y ago
      Correct. The parents that care put their children into French immersion because other like-minded parents do so and their children are high-achieving. Any teacher will tell you that parenting is the biggest determining factor in academic achievement, and as a result French immersion is effectively the "academic stream" in the Canadian school system. It also receives additional federal funding which is not available to English programs.
    - 10y ago

cvinson 10y ago

Try having a startup in Montreal. Our has been targeted by the language police, and is being forced to translate not just our front end, but our blog and social media presences. It doesn't matter that 0.01% of customers are in Quebec, and that we have determined that there is no market for our product in french. Anyone can send an anonymous message to this government agency and it will audit your business to make sure you are compliant. Have more than 50 employees? Make sure the copy button on your photocopier says "copiez" or you'll have to put stickers over it (true story, happened at my brother's pharma startup). The sad thing is that most Montrealers have the attitude that "you're in Montreal, you should learn french." The problem is, this law goes far beyond that, and is a serious impediment for Montreal startups.

miguelrochefort 10y ago
This is accurate. The company I work for had to put French stickers on every key of every keyboard. They had to put stickers on the microwave oven as well...
- serge2k 10y ago
  I hate Canadian bilingual keyboards so much.
  - Mikeb85 10y ago
    This is for real. US alt international layout on Linux is great, best ever. And Azerty > Canadian bilingual keyboards too. Canadian bilingual keyboards suck for writing in both French and English.
  - nayuki 10y ago
    I hate how the left shift key is split, and how the backslash moves to the enter position. Despite being in Canada, I only buy laptops with US keyboards.
  - frandroid 10y ago
    Wait, you actually look at the keys? You can use whatever keyboard but keep it mapped out to your favourite layout. I personally use a Canadian bilingual layout but haven't owned such a keyboard in quite a while, since work doesn't look fondly in buying a MacBook Pro with a layout that a future inheritor would bristle at... Now if you mean that you really hate the layout, it's really anti-programming, and sometimes I wonder why I stick to it. :) It's so easy to use a layout switching keyboard shortcut...