6 ms·

It's sad to see the recurring condescending attitude of HN crowd towards China and it's recent (and well deserved) technological prowess. C'mon guys, all said a

by yyyuuu 10y ago

It's sad to see the recurring condescending attitude of HN crowd towards China and it's recent (and well deserved) technological prowess. C'mon guys, all said and done, China is kicking ass. You've got to give credit where it's due. Cutting edge or not, the next century will be driven by China simply because the momentum that they have generated. The only thing that still remains a red flag for me is China's lack of democracy and political instability that may come due to it.

seesomesense 10y ago
I believe that the technical term for the HN attitude towards China is : sour grapes.
jomamaxx 10y ago
"Cutting edge or not, the next century will be driven by China simply because the momentum that they have generated" (Almost) Nothing is led by China and (almost) nothing ever will. I remember as a boy the stories of Japan taking over the world in the 1980's. The same will come of China. The Bubble will burst, and they'll slowly find their way into the world order. Bar codes? Give me a break. They've done well with some type of commerce activities wherein the tech facilitated development given their needs (Ali Baba), but that's not really tech. Everything is copy. Tell me - what tech does anyone use that was conceived of, developed and made in China? Nothing really. And that won't change.
- paradite 10y ago
  > Tell me - what tech does anyone use that was conceived of, developed and made in China? This? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12214675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12214675
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    Thanks for that. Nifty invention - that nobody uses outside of China. Meanwhile, talk to any rail car maker in the world, and they'll tell you that as part of the deal they had to sell trains in China, they had to hand over 100% of the IP, research, R&D, plans, schematics. And within 1 year the government had handed over the plans to a state owned competitor who had copied the entire thing from top to bottom. When we see those nifty trains running over San Francisco, you'll have a point.
    - paradite 10y ago
      Uhm... Not sure about selling trains to China. As far as I know, the modern trains that I've seen in China seem to be manufactured by Chinese companies. The technology, if I am not mistaken, were transferred to China by Soviet Union and European companies post WW2 in a legal and friendly manner, i.e., they send their experts here to do manufacturing or China send some people overseas to learn about the technology. And the same thing happened to Japan if I remember correctly, they were able to "learn" designs from the West and improve on it to build their railway system that is one of the best in the world.
      - MagnumOpus 10y ago
        He is not talking about 1980s communist-era trains, he is talking about HSR which was "technology-transferred" wholesale from Japanese and German companies under small-series licensing deals, then eerily similar trains were manufactured en masse locally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Technology_transfer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Techn...
        gkanai 10y ago
        If you have traveled in a Shinkansen in Japan and then been on Chinese HSR, you can see that the HSR interiors are almost identical copies of the Japanese equivalents. However the key part that China cannot copy from Japan is the human software part, that is the training and service excellence of 50 years of history with hundreds of millions of passenger kilometers of operational history and zero passenger fatalities during operation. China's HSR has already had multiple fatalities during operation, unfortunately.
      - jomamaxx 10y ago
        "As far as I know, the modern trains that I've seen in China seem to be manufactured by Chinese companies." Yes - because in order to do business in China, you have to give over your IP to a Chinese company and 'partner' with them to sell there, OR, after you give over your IP someone else gets their hands on it and copies you and you've wasted your time. China is not an open market, most sectors are heavily protected. Granted - it's arguably a smart thing for them to do during 'catch up phase' - but you can't remain competitive by doing those things. Non-Chinese nations should impose tarriffs on all Chinese goods until we can freely sell things there without government interruption. They can protect their banks, telecoms etc. like every country, but not every consumer good. The companies that have been successful there are largely consumer retail like restaurants, clothing etc..
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    I think that's not a good example. This isn't an "invention", it's just an obvious engineering solution for a problem. So the reason others don't build buses like that is much more likely because they don't have a problem that can be solved by that design, not that they haven't thought or can't think of such a solution.
- Asetsuna 10y ago
  http://highestbridges.com/wiki/index.php?title=List_of_500_Highest_International_Bridges http://highestbridges.com/wiki/index.php?title=List_of_500_H...
  - varjag 10y ago
    On the other hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_tunnels_by_type https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_tunnels_by_type Choose your arbitrary metrics wisely :)
    - Noseshine 10y ago
      Like this? :) http://brobible.com/life/article/average-penis-size-study/ http://brobible.com/life/article/average-penis-size-study/ (Sorry, could not resist)
tylerty 10y ago
Ok we should give credits to China: - stole most techs from us/Japan/Europe - innovated...nothing - copied apple products down to the last screw - prevented Google and Facebook to compete, even though they claimed to be open market to wto As for your momentum, don't forget the trillions of state debt, the wto membership expiring this year, xi the dictator closing down news channels, billions in capital outflow
- pjmlp 10y ago
  While it might be true in modern times regarding copying, Europe and US also did take a lot from them in past centuries and looking at historical documents, we didn't always pay for it.
  - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
    Industrial revolution started in the US by stealing IP from the UK. Heck, even writing were stolen by much of the world from its (few) inventors.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      All of which seems to point out that the very concept of "stealing IP" (and IP in general) is ridiculous.
      - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
        It is definitely controversial. We need some protection, limited time ostentatious seem reasonable, or there might not be an incentive to invent.
- Noseshine 10y ago
  So just like (my country) Germany. "Made in Germany" was introduced by Britain to mark inferior German copycat products. Calling copying successful products, methods, inventions "stealing" is a very subjective statement. If you want to see what someone who doesn't "steal" can achieve look at the stories of children that provided the inspiration for the Mowgli story. A more reasonable description of not reinventing the wheel is "being smart".
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
I've been here for 9 years and am leaving in a couple of weeks. China kicks butt only when compared to itself, but lags in almost everything else. Many Chinese solutions (wepay) are merely solving problems that the west didn't have (lack of bankcard use, no NFC infrastructure, security..well). On the other hand, the internet is absolutely 3rd world for anything international: I get better access in the Philippines or Indonesia. Just this morning, reddit and HN weren't working on my phone/@home for whatever reason I don't know. And all the countries around China, I visit them often, they use none of China's internet stack. Facebook, YouTube, WhatsApp, are all very strong in SE Asia. This includes Chinese places around China, like HK, Taiwan, Singapore. If Chinese mobile innovation was so great...wouldn't they have even just a little bit of success outside of China? > Cutting edge or not, the next century will be driven by China simply because the momentum that they have generated. China will be continued to be driven by China, but the internet world has already began fragmenting into China and everyone else.
victorhugo31337 10y ago
"red flag"...I see what you did there.. nice.
eel 10y ago
To me, the impressive thing the China has done is making the technology ubiquitous and commercially successful within China. As a software developer, I don't see a lot of magic in writing applications. I feel confident that I could write a WeChat or a mobile payments platform given enough time. But to convince hundreds of millions of people or thousands of retailers to use it? That is beyond my comprehension. When I hear about technological prowess, I am expecting things like rockets that land on barges, self driving cars, and even block chains. Not web apps and mobile apps. China has enough of the pieces in place that I wouldn't be surprised to see some innovations soon that would impress me. But it just hasn't happened yet.
- flatM 10y ago
  When I hear about technological prowess, I am expecting things like rockets that land on barges, self driving cars, and even block chains. Not web apps and mobile apps. Most of Chinese people share the same opinion. There are huge resources poured into the areas you mentioned above. Though the progresses made on those fronts in China won't be covered by Western media, until they happened.
plandis 10y ago
Sure they are kicking ass when it comes to money but I honestly don't think that a monolithic app the dominates the entire market is the right path forward for a free and open society.
- gkanai 10y ago
  I see what you did there...

by yyyuuu 10y ago

seesomesense 10y ago

I believe that the technical term for the HN attitude towards China is : sour grapes.

jomamaxx 10y ago

"Cutting edge or not, the next century will be driven by China simply because the momentum that they have generated" (Almost) Nothing is led by China and (almost) nothing ever will. I remember as a boy the stories of Japan taking over the world in the 1980's. The same will come of China. The Bubble will burst, and they'll slowly find their way into the world order. Bar codes? Give me a break. They've done well with some type of commerce activities wherein the tech facilitated development given their needs (Ali Baba), but that's not really tech. Everything is copy. Tell me - what tech does anyone use that was conceived of, developed and made in China? Nothing really. And that won't change.

paradite 10y ago
> Tell me - what tech does anyone use that was conceived of, developed and made in China? This? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12214675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12214675
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  Thanks for that. Nifty invention - that nobody uses outside of China. Meanwhile, talk to any rail car maker in the world, and they'll tell you that as part of the deal they had to sell trains in China, they had to hand over 100% of the IP, research, R&D, plans, schematics. And within 1 year the government had handed over the plans to a state owned competitor who had copied the entire thing from top to bottom. When we see those nifty trains running over San Francisco, you'll have a point.
  - paradite 10y ago
    Uhm... Not sure about selling trains to China. As far as I know, the modern trains that I've seen in China seem to be manufactured by Chinese companies. The technology, if I am not mistaken, were transferred to China by Soviet Union and European companies post WW2 in a legal and friendly manner, i.e., they send their experts here to do manufacturing or China send some people overseas to learn about the technology. And the same thing happened to Japan if I remember correctly, they were able to "learn" designs from the West and improve on it to build their railway system that is one of the best in the world.
    - MagnumOpus 10y ago
      He is not talking about 1980s communist-era trains, he is talking about HSR which was "technology-transferred" wholesale from Japanese and German companies under small-series licensing deals, then eerily similar trains were manufactured en masse locally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Technology_transfer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Techn...
      - gkanai 10y ago
        If you have traveled in a Shinkansen in Japan and then been on Chinese HSR, you can see that the HSR interiors are almost identical copies of the Japanese equivalents. However the key part that China cannot copy from Japan is the human software part, that is the training and service excellence of 50 years of history with hundreds of millions of passenger kilometers of operational history and zero passenger fatalities during operation. China's HSR has already had multiple fatalities during operation, unfortunately.
    - jomamaxx 10y ago
      "As far as I know, the modern trains that I've seen in China seem to be manufactured by Chinese companies." Yes - because in order to do business in China, you have to give over your IP to a Chinese company and 'partner' with them to sell there, OR, after you give over your IP someone else gets their hands on it and copies you and you've wasted your time. China is not an open market, most sectors are heavily protected. Granted - it's arguably a smart thing for them to do during 'catch up phase' - but you can't remain competitive by doing those things. Non-Chinese nations should impose tarriffs on all Chinese goods until we can freely sell things there without government interruption. They can protect their banks, telecoms etc. like every country, but not every consumer good. The companies that have been successful there are largely consumer retail like restaurants, clothing etc..
- Noseshine 10y ago
  I think that's not a good example. This isn't an "invention", it's just an obvious engineering solution for a problem. So the reason others don't build buses like that is much more likely because they don't have a problem that can be solved by that design, not that they haven't thought or can't think of such a solution.
Asetsuna 10y ago
http://highestbridges.com/wiki/index.php?title=List_of_500_Highest_International_Bridges http://highestbridges.com/wiki/index.php?title=List_of_500_H...
- varjag 10y ago
  On the other hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_tunnels_by_type https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_tunnels_by_type Choose your arbitrary metrics wisely :)
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    Like this? :) http://brobible.com/life/article/average-penis-size-study/ http://brobible.com/life/article/average-penis-size-study/ (Sorry, could not resist)

tylerty 10y ago

Ok we should give credits to China: - stole most techs from us/Japan/Europe - innovated...nothing - copied apple products down to the last screw - prevented Google and Facebook to compete, even though they claimed to be open market to wto As for your momentum, don't forget the trillions of state debt, the wto membership expiring this year, xi the dictator closing down news channels, billions in capital outflow

pjmlp 10y ago
While it might be true in modern times regarding copying, Europe and US also did take a lot from them in past centuries and looking at historical documents, we didn't always pay for it.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Industrial revolution started in the US by stealing IP from the UK. Heck, even writing were stolen by much of the world from its (few) inventors.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    All of which seems to point out that the very concept of "stealing IP" (and IP in general) is ridiculous.
    - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
      It is definitely controversial. We need some protection, limited time ostentatious seem reasonable, or there might not be an incentive to invent.
Noseshine 10y ago
So just like (my country) Germany. "Made in Germany" was introduced by Britain to mark inferior German copycat products. Calling copying successful products, methods, inventions "stealing" is a very subjective statement. If you want to see what someone who doesn't "steal" can achieve look at the stories of children that provided the inspiration for the Mowgli story. A more reasonable description of not reinventing the wheel is "being smart".

seanmcdirmid 10y ago

I've been here for 9 years and am leaving in a couple of weeks. China kicks butt only when compared to itself, but lags in almost everything else. Many Chinese solutions (wepay) are merely solving problems that the west didn't have (lack of bankcard use, no NFC infrastructure, security..well). On the other hand, the internet is absolutely 3rd world for anything international: I get better access in the Philippines or Indonesia. Just this morning, reddit and HN weren't working on my phone/@home for whatever reason I don't know. And all the countries around China, I visit them often, they use none of China's internet stack. Facebook, YouTube, WhatsApp, are all very strong in SE Asia. This includes Chinese places around China, like HK, Taiwan, Singapore. If Chinese mobile innovation was so great...wouldn't they have even just a little bit of success outside of China? > Cutting edge or not, the next century will be driven by China simply because the momentum that they have generated. China will be continued to be driven by China, but the internet world has already began fragmenting into China and everyone else.

victorhugo31337 10y ago

"red flag"...I see what you did there.. nice.

eel 10y ago

To me, the impressive thing the China has done is making the technology ubiquitous and commercially successful within China. As a software developer, I don't see a lot of magic in writing applications. I feel confident that I could write a WeChat or a mobile payments platform given enough time. But to convince hundreds of millions of people or thousands of retailers to use it? That is beyond my comprehension. When I hear about technological prowess, I am expecting things like rockets that land on barges, self driving cars, and even block chains. Not web apps and mobile apps. China has enough of the pieces in place that I wouldn't be surprised to see some innovations soon that would impress me. But it just hasn't happened yet.

flatM 10y ago
When I hear about technological prowess, I am expecting things like rockets that land on barges, self driving cars, and even block chains. Not web apps and mobile apps. Most of Chinese people share the same opinion. There are huge resources poured into the areas you mentioned above. Though the progresses made on those fronts in China won't be covered by Western media, until they happened.

plandis 10y ago

Sure they are kicking ass when it comes to money but I honestly don't think that a monolithic app the dominates the entire market is the right path forward for a free and open society.

gkanai 10y ago
I see what you did there...