7 ms·

So, this supply and demand thing. We keep hearing from large tech companies that there's a crisis -- a massive shortage of qualified software engineers, to suc

So, this supply and demand thing. We keep hearing from large tech companies that there's a crisis -- a massive shortage of qualified software engineers, to such a degree that they won't be able to operate at all if they can't raise the H1-B quotas and import more people to fill all the jobs currently going unfilled. If that truly is the case, then supply and demand would tell us that currently engineers are underpaid; if there are companies so desperate to hire engineers that they're turning to immigration law to try to increase the supply, why aren't they simply offering large enough compensation packages to attract the existing pool? Pondering the answer to that may enlighten you.

JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Exactly. If a company were to announce they were going to bump dev salaries up by 75K/year, they'd be flooded with people wanting to interview.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
hx87 10y ago
A similar issue exists with respect to illegal immigration and low-pay, low-status jobs such as crop picking, meat-packing, and janitorial services: if there aren't enough Americans willing to do the job at prevailing wages, then aren't prevailing wages too low? Sure, my tomatoes would cost more and cleaning services might be 200% more expensive, but that's just the cost of doing business.
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  Or for another "white-collar" example: the alleged "pilot shortage" in the US. There's no shortage of trained, qualified pilots; there is a shortage of trained, qualified pilots willing to accept the wages and working conditions that are typical when starting out with a US-based airline. That one ends up draining in the opposite direction: instead of working for airlines in the US, those pilots go overseas where the offered pay and working conditions are better, and end up flying for Asian or Middle Eastern airlines.
- eru 10y ago
  But who would be served by that? With immigration Americans get cheaper tomatoes and unAmericans get comparatively better jobs. It's a win-win.
aianus 10y ago
> why aren't they simply offering large enough compensation packages to attract the existing pool? Well, they are. Compensation packages at the big tech companies are ridiculous. I know someone that got $100k signing bonus (cash, not stock) without a degree at 21 years old. He's not a genius either. At a certain point, don't you think it's better to share some of that opportunity with smart foreigners? How many Teslas does an American twenty-something need?
- learc83 10y ago
  >Well, they are. Clearly they aren't. Say an engineer can make a company $1 million per year. They are only willing to pay $200k per year in total compensation, but they complain that they can't hire enough engineers. Obviously they aren't paying enough per engineer. >At a certain point, don't you think it's better to share some of that opportunity with smart foreigners? How many Teslas does an American twenty-something need? So it's not the multi-billion dollar companies that are being greedy, but the engineers making $150k a year? Companies want to import foreign workers to depress wages so that they can save money, and your instinct is to blame the workers who don't want lower wages?
  - aianus 10y ago
    > They are only willing to pay $200k per year in total compensation, but they complain that they can't hire enough engineers. Obviously they aren't paying enough per engineer. Engineers are not created from money. You might be able to fill your positions by paying more, but not all of the positions in the entire country. Not without immigration or higher graduation rates. > Companies want to import foreign workers to depress wages so that they can save money, and your instinct is to blame the workers who don't want lower wages? How do you justify that the location of birth should be the main determinant in whether an engineer earns $150k a year or $30k a year? That line of reasoning is a lot more disgusting to me than corporate profit-maximizing.
    - ThePawnBreak 10y ago
      > You might be able to fill your positions by paying more, but not all of the positions in the entire country. Not without immigration or higher graduation rates. There is not set number of "positions", the number depends on the number of developer willing to work for the wage offered. If you would consider an employer who is willing to pay $50 per month for a developer to have an open "position", then the number of positions would be an order of magnitude higher.
reinhardt 10y ago
> if there are companies so desperate to hire engineers that they're turning to immigration law to try to increase the supply, why aren't they simply offering large enough compensation packages to attract the existing pool? I don't get this argument. If there are 100 open positions and 80 eligible candidates, 20 (at least) positions will remain vacant, regardless of compensation. Not saying that this example reflects the real world, just that the argument is not sound from a logical/mathematical standpoint.
- jacalata 10y ago
  The argument is that there are thousands of eligible candidates who simply haven't chosen to apply for your company because they are happy at their current position, and Apple/etc are choosing to focus on increasing the pool of candidates rather than increasing their attractiveness to the existing group of candidates.
- nradov 10y ago
  Your math is wrong, or rather irrelevant. The pool of eligible candidates is not fixed. It constantly changes based on the offered compensation and other factors. For example there are plenty of people qualified to do engineering work who aren't working in that field right now for whatever reason, but could be enticed to take an engineering job for enough money.
  - aianus 10y ago
    I disagree, the pool of candidates basically only changes via immigration and as people retrain or teenagers choose different college majors (very slow). > For example there are plenty of people qualified to do engineering work who aren't working in that field right now for whatever reason, but could be enticed to take an engineering job for enough money. Like whom? How can you be qualified to do software engineering if a) you've invested so much in a different career that you already make more than SV salaries and b) you presumably haven't done software engineering in years?
    - nradov 10y ago

JustSomeNobody 10y ago

Exactly. If a company were to announce they were going to bump dev salaries up by 75K/year, they'd be flooded with people wanting to interview.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

hx87 10y ago

A similar issue exists with respect to illegal immigration and low-pay, low-status jobs such as crop picking, meat-packing, and janitorial services: if there aren't enough Americans willing to do the job at prevailing wages, then aren't prevailing wages too low? Sure, my tomatoes would cost more and cleaning services might be 200% more expensive, but that's just the cost of doing business.

ubernostrum 10y ago
Or for another "white-collar" example: the alleged "pilot shortage" in the US. There's no shortage of trained, qualified pilots; there is a shortage of trained, qualified pilots willing to accept the wages and working conditions that are typical when starting out with a US-based airline. That one ends up draining in the opposite direction: instead of working for airlines in the US, those pilots go overseas where the offered pay and working conditions are better, and end up flying for Asian or Middle Eastern airlines.
eru 10y ago
But who would be served by that? With immigration Americans get cheaper tomatoes and unAmericans get comparatively better jobs. It's a win-win.

aianus 10y ago

> why aren't they simply offering large enough compensation packages to attract the existing pool? Well, they are. Compensation packages at the big tech companies are ridiculous. I know someone that got $100k signing bonus (cash, not stock) without a degree at 21 years old. He's not a genius either. At a certain point, don't you think it's better to share some of that opportunity with smart foreigners? How many Teslas does an American twenty-something need?

learc83 10y ago
>Well, they are. Clearly they aren't. Say an engineer can make a company $1 million per year. They are only willing to pay $200k per year in total compensation, but they complain that they can't hire enough engineers. Obviously they aren't paying enough per engineer. >At a certain point, don't you think it's better to share some of that opportunity with smart foreigners? How many Teslas does an American twenty-something need? So it's not the multi-billion dollar companies that are being greedy, but the engineers making $150k a year? Companies want to import foreign workers to depress wages so that they can save money, and your instinct is to blame the workers who don't want lower wages?
- aianus 10y ago
  > They are only willing to pay $200k per year in total compensation, but they complain that they can't hire enough engineers. Obviously they aren't paying enough per engineer. Engineers are not created from money. You might be able to fill your positions by paying more, but not all of the positions in the entire country. Not without immigration or higher graduation rates. > Companies want to import foreign workers to depress wages so that they can save money, and your instinct is to blame the workers who don't want lower wages? How do you justify that the location of birth should be the main determinant in whether an engineer earns $150k a year or $30k a year? That line of reasoning is a lot more disgusting to me than corporate profit-maximizing.
  - ThePawnBreak 10y ago
    > You might be able to fill your positions by paying more, but not all of the positions in the entire country. Not without immigration or higher graduation rates. There is not set number of "positions", the number depends on the number of developer willing to work for the wage offered. If you would consider an employer who is willing to pay $50 per month for a developer to have an open "position", then the number of positions would be an order of magnitude higher.

reinhardt 10y ago

> if there are companies so desperate to hire engineers that they're turning to immigration law to try to increase the supply, why aren't they simply offering large enough compensation packages to attract the existing pool? I don't get this argument. If there are 100 open positions and 80 eligible candidates, 20 (at least) positions will remain vacant, regardless of compensation. Not saying that this example reflects the real world, just that the argument is not sound from a logical/mathematical standpoint.

jacalata 10y ago
The argument is that there are thousands of eligible candidates who simply haven't chosen to apply for your company because they are happy at their current position, and Apple/etc are choosing to focus on increasing the pool of candidates rather than increasing their attractiveness to the existing group of candidates.
nradov 10y ago
Your math is wrong, or rather irrelevant. The pool of eligible candidates is not fixed. It constantly changes based on the offered compensation and other factors. For example there are plenty of people qualified to do engineering work who aren't working in that field right now for whatever reason, but could be enticed to take an engineering job for enough money.
- aianus 10y ago
  I disagree, the pool of candidates basically only changes via immigration and as people retrain or teenagers choose different college majors (very slow). > For example there are plenty of people qualified to do engineering work who aren't working in that field right now for whatever reason, but could be enticed to take an engineering job for enough money. Like whom? How can you be qualified to do software engineering if a) you've invested so much in a different career that you already make more than SV salaries and b) you presumably haven't done software engineering in years?
  - nradov 10y ago