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A keylogger is a surveillance tool that collects every keystroke on a PC and sends it to a remote location without your knowledge. On that (correct) definition

by scholia 10y ago

A keylogger is a surveillance tool that collects every keystroke on a PC and sends it to a remote location without your knowledge. On that (correct) definition, Windows 10 doesn't contain a keylogger. UPDATE: First, it doesn't collect every keystroke. Second, it doesn't send every keystroke to Microsoft. It generates information for personalization purposes, some of which is stored locally on your own PC, and some of which is stored online where you can delete it at https://www.bing.com/account/personalization https://www.bing.com/account/personalization Note: downvotes don't change the reality. If you can't handle truth, that's your problem.

icefo 10y ago
For most people you just have to remove "every" from the definition. I don't think they are aware of what's happening. That and Microsoft can probably turn it in a real keylogger if they want/have to but it's speculation
- scholia 10y ago
  So could Google or Apple on any of their devices. The point is that people are mis-using the word keylogger, either because they really don't understand what's happening, or as a device for scaring people. Neither is satisfactory, especially not on HN.
  - RaleyField 10y ago
    It has some qualities of keylogger software and that's the implied context. It may not be and probably isn't a variant of what would one think as classical keylogger (but what do we know, they say they collect keys without explaining at all how they are processed before they are sent) but if it sends every second or every third keystroke or if it sends poorly aggregated statistics that still leak usable entropy in Shannonian sense then that software could rightfully be said to mimic a keylogger.
    - scholia 10y ago
      Think of it this way: Microsoft isn't interested in individual cars, or their occupants, it's interested in traffic flows, and especially in crashes. It's dealing with anonymized, aggregated data, and the dashboards that Microsoft programmers can access look much like Google Analytics. Microsoft wants to know how often people use, say, Notepad, but it has no interest at all in what you write in it. They're doing that to improve the product, in exactly the same was as Google does with Gmail or Facebook does, though I think Windows 10 is a much lower privacy risk than those. Personalization is another step, and you can turn it off. Every major voice recognition and handwriting program has always done this: they create templates (or whatever) that enable them to work better for specific users. Most of that info is held locally anyway. None of this is remotely like a traditional keylogger.
      - RaleyField 10y ago
        > Microsoft isn't interested Who knows what's on Microsoft's mind. They are burning bridges by including ads in Windows, by that alone they are (mildly) evil or insane so appeals to what Microsoft wants or is interested in loses meaning because they aren't acting completely rationally. > It's dealing with anonymized, aggregated data Even if I trusted them to not act maliciously I can't trust them to be competent, and there's plenty of historical evidence for that. Either they spew how they aggregate data or I don't trust them for the already mentioned reasons. > you can turn it off. Informed consent is the keyword. They didn't get it for arguably very invasive behavior many informed people would object to. I shouldn't be flying around turning three pages of settings off on my relatives' computers because Windows 10 installed itself or explain lengthily why turning certain settings isn't necessarily in their best interest, that's Microsoft's job and they failed at it.
khedoros 10y ago
"Keylogger" may be a little bit of an inflammatory way to put it, but it gets the point across: Windows sends an unspecified selection of your keyboard inputs to Microsoft's servers, and it doesn't inform you what it's sending or when it's sending it. If you want to language-lawyer it, fine. Calling that property of Windows 10 something different doesn't change what Microsoft's doing, and it doesn't make me like it any more. That is the point. Missing the point is why you're being downvoted.
- scholia 10y ago
  I'm not missing the point. Calling it a "keylogger" isn't just inflammatory, it's wrong. Being upset about what Windows 10 actually does is fair enough -- I understand that not everyone wants things like telemetry and personalization (or maybe just not on Windows). It's not an excuse for claiming it does things that it doesn't do.
  - eximius 10y ago
    Does it log keystrokes and send them somewhere?
    - scholia 10y ago
      No. What would Microsoft do with billions of keystrokes from approaching 1.5 billion PCs? Especially since most of those keystrokes are probably Solitaire or GTA or some other game, or else they're from email or social networking (where somebody else has far more interest in your keystrokes). In any case, running a real keylogger in Windows would be a magnet for the NSA and similar services, which would end up being far more trouble than it was worth....
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - Dylan16807 10y ago
        >> Does it log keystrokes and send them somewhere? > No. Then you should say "It's not a keylogger because it doesn't send keystrokes anywhere". Not fuss about whether the definition of keylogger requires capturing every key. But please explain how "send samples of my typing" does not involve sending keystrokes.
Dylan16807 10y ago
So if I have malware that records my keystrokes in all programs outside of the start menu, and sends them home secretly, that's not a keylogger, because it's not every keystroke? It is not good that you're calling people out as having problems and being below the level of discourse expected on HN just because their definition of keylogger includes programs that only log the keys used in other programs part of the time. That you won't acknowledge any chance that your definition isn't the best one.
cm2187 10y ago
A software that only collects half of the keystrokes is still a keylogger in my book.

by scholia 10y ago

icefo 10y ago

For most people you just have to remove "every" from the definition. I don't think they are aware of what's happening. That and Microsoft can probably turn it in a real keylogger if they want/have to but it's speculation

scholia 10y ago
So could Google or Apple on any of their devices. The point is that people are mis-using the word keylogger, either because they really don't understand what's happening, or as a device for scaring people. Neither is satisfactory, especially not on HN.
- RaleyField 10y ago
  It has some qualities of keylogger software and that's the implied context. It may not be and probably isn't a variant of what would one think as classical keylogger (but what do we know, they say they collect keys without explaining at all how they are processed before they are sent) but if it sends every second or every third keystroke or if it sends poorly aggregated statistics that still leak usable entropy in Shannonian sense then that software could rightfully be said to mimic a keylogger.
  - scholia 10y ago
    Think of it this way: Microsoft isn't interested in individual cars, or their occupants, it's interested in traffic flows, and especially in crashes. It's dealing with anonymized, aggregated data, and the dashboards that Microsoft programmers can access look much like Google Analytics. Microsoft wants to know how often people use, say, Notepad, but it has no interest at all in what you write in it. They're doing that to improve the product, in exactly the same was as Google does with Gmail or Facebook does, though I think Windows 10 is a much lower privacy risk than those. Personalization is another step, and you can turn it off. Every major voice recognition and handwriting program has always done this: they create templates (or whatever) that enable them to work better for specific users. Most of that info is held locally anyway. None of this is remotely like a traditional keylogger.
    - RaleyField 10y ago
      > Microsoft isn't interested Who knows what's on Microsoft's mind. They are burning bridges by including ads in Windows, by that alone they are (mildly) evil or insane so appeals to what Microsoft wants or is interested in loses meaning because they aren't acting completely rationally. > It's dealing with anonymized, aggregated data Even if I trusted them to not act maliciously I can't trust them to be competent, and there's plenty of historical evidence for that. Either they spew how they aggregate data or I don't trust them for the already mentioned reasons. > you can turn it off. Informed consent is the keyword. They didn't get it for arguably very invasive behavior many informed people would object to. I shouldn't be flying around turning three pages of settings off on my relatives' computers because Windows 10 installed itself or explain lengthily why turning certain settings isn't necessarily in their best interest, that's Microsoft's job and they failed at it.

khedoros 10y ago

"Keylogger" may be a little bit of an inflammatory way to put it, but it gets the point across: Windows sends an unspecified selection of your keyboard inputs to Microsoft's servers, and it doesn't inform you what it's sending or when it's sending it. If you want to language-lawyer it, fine. Calling that property of Windows 10 something different doesn't change what Microsoft's doing, and it doesn't make me like it any more. That is the point. Missing the point is why you're being downvoted.

scholia 10y ago
I'm not missing the point. Calling it a "keylogger" isn't just inflammatory, it's wrong. Being upset about what Windows 10 actually does is fair enough -- I understand that not everyone wants things like telemetry and personalization (or maybe just not on Windows). It's not an excuse for claiming it does things that it doesn't do.
- eximius 10y ago
  Does it log keystrokes and send them somewhere?
  - scholia 10y ago
    No. What would Microsoft do with billions of keystrokes from approaching 1.5 billion PCs? Especially since most of those keystrokes are probably Solitaire or GTA or some other game, or else they're from email or social networking (where somebody else has far more interest in your keystrokes). In any case, running a real keylogger in Windows would be a magnet for the NSA and similar services, which would end up being far more trouble than it was worth....
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Dylan16807 10y ago
      >> Does it log keystrokes and send them somewhere? > No. Then you should say "It's not a keylogger because it doesn't send keystrokes anywhere". Not fuss about whether the definition of keylogger requires capturing every key. But please explain how "send samples of my typing" does not involve sending keystrokes.

Dylan16807 10y ago

So if I have malware that records my keystrokes in all programs outside of the start menu, and sends them home secretly, that's not a keylogger, because it's not every keystroke? It is not good that you're calling people out as having problems and being below the level of discourse expected on HN just because their definition of keylogger includes programs that only log the keys used in other programs part of the time. That you won't acknowledge any chance that your definition isn't the best one.

cm2187 10y ago

A software that only collects half of the keystrokes is still a keylogger in my book.