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Ten Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer

361 points by mikecarlton 10y ago

pm90 10y ago
This is a really good article and I would highly recommend it. In case other HN'ers are wondering, its complimentary to patio11's posts on salary negotiation. I especially agree with the point made at the end that it really helps if you try to understand the employer's perspective as well. Remember that the best outcome should be a win-win situation in which both the company and the future employee are happy with the outcome. I really disliked to work in places where the job was very good but the pay was definitely not the best. The best way to fix this is to negotiate a good pay at the start: that way you can fully focus on the exciting work.
- tensor 10y ago
  Yes, as in a sale, if both parties walk away happy it was a good sale. I feel there is way too much "screw the companies" attitude here.
Mendenhall 10y ago
Well reasoned post that I agree with many points. I had said in a previous thread and would add here, never forget you are the one in control and never be desperate.
auxym 10y ago
I enjoyed reading this post, as well as I did patio11's a few years ago, but I feel that a lot of the advice applies mostly to highly in-demand workers (read: software people). At least, so has been my limited experience.
- stale2002 10y ago
  Well obviously it only applies to software people. That's why it was posted to HACKER news. :P
lwhalen 10y ago
Don't suppose anyone could link patio11's posts, could they? I've seen them referenced twice now, and would love to check them out :-)
- auxym 10y ago
  Probably these http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro...
phamilton 10y ago
I stalled in comp and title for about 2 years due to an acquisition. While I was definitely maximizing my compensation, it was a miserable experience. Perhaps I lack the mental fortitude to not skip in to complacency, but for those two years there was no difference between an excellent job done and a mediocre one. After about 12 months of erring on the side of excellent, I just gave up. I did the minimum required and got paid handsomely for it. I eventually left and took a pay cut. It may have been extenuating circumstances but I do wonder if I would have been happier with less compensation and more room to grow. That being said, the burden of preventing overcompensation lies on the hiring manager. The candidate should push for as much as possible and the hiring manager should make a judgement call about whether the employee will have room to grow.
- pm90 10y ago
  Taking a cut in salary in lieu of room to grow or anything else should be decided very very carefully. You must really understand that you actually do have an opportunity to grow; at the very least, you should know that its risky and have evaluated the risk as one worth taking.
  - phamilton 10y ago
    Very true. In this case, it was actually an increase in salary but a loss of liquid stock compensation in favor of illiquid stock options. Overall cashflow, it was a pay cut. Median/Mode outcome, probably still a pay cut. With extremely high variance, I believe the Mean outcome is probably a break even. As far as not having room to grow, I can probably sum that up in a single word: Yahoo!
stygiansonic 10y ago
To add to point #3, (information is power), I would advise any candidate to do research into approx. salary ranges for the type of positions they've applied to and the geographical area in which they are located. The author does lament the general trend of "pay secrecy" in part 2 [2] of his previous article on how he landed a job at Airbnb[1] but it's worthwhile to point out here. Almost any offer/salary does not exist in a vacuum but within the context of the current salary ranges (i.e. the market) for similar positions and also different positions. Look at it this way: If I tell you that apples are 2 Simoleons (§) per lb, is that a good price? There's hardly any way to know, given that I quoted it in a fictional currency. But if you know that oranges are 10§/lb, bananas are 5§/lb and that you can get a job at the grocery store selling them making 20§/hour, that gives some context to not only the prices of apples, but also the relative value of different produce and the ability to afford it. This is the essence of a market economy, which the job economy is an instance of. Sites like Glassdoor and other efforts to share salary information[3] (even if they may be subject to reporting bias) are a good way to give you more information about the relative value of any offer, which will be another tool in your kit for negotiation. Read as much as you can, as in my experience it will be well worth your time. 1. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/ http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/ 2. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii/ http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii... 3. https://blog.step.com/2016/06/16/more-salaries-twitter-linkedin/ https://blog.step.com/2016/06/16/more-salaries-twitter-linke...
- gentleteblor 10y ago
  "information is power" <-- amen to this. It's also important to gather another type of information, and that's information about yourself. You've got to be able to prove (detailed instances, dates even) how you've added value in the past (which hopefully means you can again). You need leverage for these negotiations and that involves knowing what you're worth and what the market thinks you're worth (not always the same).
freework 10y ago
This whole thing seems so overwhelming. I understand negotiation is a skill that you can learn, but like anything else, it takes a lot of practice to get really good. In a way, negotiation is the polar opposite skill as computer programming. As a programmer, what you do is anything but negotiation. You don't negotiate with PHP to get you code running the way you want it to. You tell it exactly what you want it to do, then PHP does exactly that.
- dasil003 10y ago
  You only say that because you're good at programming. I remember folks in the computer lab trying to negotiate with god for their code to run...
  - BWStearns 10y ago
    Depending on the language or tooling I sometimes still do (is undef gt or lt 0?).
- scotty79 10y ago
  It's really easy. Just few tricks that go normal decent human reflexes. Just biting your tongue a bit and not reacting to first financial offer on the spot, taking a break in communication suggesting that you need to consult (your partner, your plans), reject first offer after this consideration can get you far. Plus being enthusiastic about everything but the money (thoughtful and bit distanced (concerned?) about that, until you get the offer you want to finish with, then enthusiastic as well).
- imh 10y ago
  The best advice I've read makes it feel much less like a skill. Do your homework and decide what price you would walk away from. It's easy to raise the price you would walk away from by having multiple offers, and once you've done your homework you can have a normal discussion about their offer. Instead of something equally vague as "I'd like more" you can say exactly why you think you should get more.
- pm90 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
vladimirralev 10y ago
Quite a lot similar posts recently. The more these points are repeated over and over again, the less relevant they are. That same advice you can find in articles from 50 years ago. As more people are pretending to be excited about the job no matter what and not motivated by money just to appear more attractive it lowers the performance scores everywhere and it just doesn't work anymore. The most productive negotiations should be straight talk about the numbers and terms. You shouldn't just hope the other party is stupid and will agree to less than fair terms. When somebody brings up a number ask or explain where it comes from and how does it compare to other numbers. Ask if their offer is fair, something that they would take in your shoes, so that if they say yes and later on it turns out that was not the case, you can raise the issue with a good reason. If the other party starts to get forgetful, dodge questions or lie - fine, you can treat them as a hostile party, but it makes no sense to start off with deception and advantage play against your team. Especially in startups. Big companies have moved on from this more or less anyway.
StevePerkins 10y ago
I wonder if the "game" operates somewhat differently for junior people, versus developers with 10 to 15+ years experience? When I was fresh out of school, at the tail end of the dot-com boom, negotiation seemed very much central. Employers (and the third-party recruiters working for them) always wanted me to throw out the first number, or wanted to know what I was making at my last job. Then once I was at the new company for awhile, people would gossip... and I'd always discover that I'd low-balled myself. So I would leave, using the apparent market rate as my baseline in the next search. And I simply stopped disclosing what I was making at the previous job. I learned that the difference between a $70k candidate and a $90k candidate is basically just that the latter declares himself to be a $90k candidate. However, once I crossed over the $120k line (at least in my local market) it seemed that things plateaued and changed a bit. It's not as easy to just "declare" that you're a $180k candidate rather than a $140k candidate. At that level, you often start to find that you're interviewing for managerial positions rather an individual contributor technical role. At this stage of my career, I pretty much tell the recruiter my target (which happens to be about 5-10% more than my current salary), and then I'm not even wasting my time interviewing with companies that won't go that high. Ten or fifteen years ago, I was apparently selling myself short. Today, I don't talk about salary IRL, because I'm making significantly higher than what I hear through gossip or see on Glassdoor. Is this common for other experienced devs out there? Or am I selling myself short, and probably should be making $750k for a non-managerial job outside of the Bay Area by now? (haha)
- geocar 10y ago
  This is common for some developers, but a lot of people view themselves as an "experienced" developer who aren't making this much money: They should read your post carefully and appreciate the fact that either they aren't as experienced as they think they are, or they are selling themselves short. Or perhaps they want to use the term "experienced" to refer to someone less experience. Whatever. That said, if you want to be making $750k programming outside the bay area, it's possible, but the recruiters on cybercoders and linkedin aren't going to help you get these jobs...
  - dexwiz 10y ago
imh 10y ago
I don't know why, but I get really frustrated at the negative sentiment around and apologetics for negotiation. >I’m the first to admit that negotiation is stupid. It’s a practice that inherently benefits those who are good at it, and is an absurd axis on which to reward people. But it’s a reality of our economic system. When incentives are opposed (like me wanting good wages, and companies wanting to pay me at little as possible, all else being equal), negotiation seems like the only way to decide how to reach an agreement. Of course it inherently benefits people who are good at it! Those benefits are the things they are negotiating! Instead of calling it an absurd axis to use to reach mutually agreeable terms, why can't we accept that negotiation is how reach those terms?
- HaseebQ 10y ago
  I see where you're coming from, and I think there are things negotiation does well. Negotiation allows a company to offer more (or less) than a standard wage when a candidate genuinely offers more or less value for the same position. Economically, that seems like a good thing, and I consider that the principal virtue of negotiation. But the downside is that negotiation enables candidates who are better at negotiating to command stronger offers (because they're more charismatic, or courageous, or just better studied in the practice of negotiating). That's clearly arbitrary. Negotiating skill is an axis that's mostly orthogonal to the value a candidate brings to a company. Here the public sector's system of having fixed, publicly known wages for positions is a good one. Candidates who are good at negotiating make just as much as candidates who are bad at it. The question then boils down to how much of the variation in negotiated offers can be attributed to variation value as opposed to variation in negotiating skills. I suspect it's weighted toward the latter. But if you think it's mostly toward the former, then I think it's sensible to claim that negotiation is mostly a good thing.
  - imh 10y ago
    >The question then boils down to how much of the variation in negotiated offers can be attributed to variation value as opposed to variation in negotiating skills. I think this covers most of it, but it all feels like it's only one side of the supply-demand equation. All else equal, the value to the company doesn't change whether you are one of 100 people with your skill set or one of a gazillion. But the wages certainly will. I think that's totally fair thing, and we can't get it with your model of just value to the company and negotiating skill.
p1itopre 10y ago
Given my technical background (SWE), I have found only one useful tip for salary negotiations during a job offer: get atleast two offers and play the companies against each other. I've found nothing else to be effective.
- onion2k 10y ago
  That might work if you have a unique skill that both companies need, but if there's another appropriate candidate to hire instead most companies will hire that guy and recommend that you accept the other company's role. What my company offers is based what value you're bring to the business. If another company sees you as more valuable that's brilliant, but it doesn't change what you bring to mine.
- branchless 10y ago
  Basically: have a real card to play that they think you might play. Companies will empathise to the end of the earth with you about anything, however you have to have that card.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
anotherevan 10y ago
FYI, This looks like a republish of his original blog post[1] that was discussed previously[2]. [1] http://haseebq.com/my-ten-rules-for-negotiating-a-job-offer/ http://haseebq.com/my-ten-rules-for-negotiating-a-job-offer/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12086876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12086876
dominotw 10y ago
This guy is a legend!! http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/ http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/
wruza 10y ago
This ruleset leads him to special sort of companies that "hunt stars at any cost". If you're so precious AND have speech skill, maybe that's for you. But maybe get less-tech, speech-oriented job then? Most employees are just workers, not stars, and at least among my management environment there is a simple rule: skip negotiators. If he can't tell what he wants, we do not call again. If he said X, we do not negotiate that. Negotiation is about skill and whether he will work here or not, which position and/or responsibilities he will take. Not about salary. It is stupid to constraint employee's living and needs, no matter if these are first- or second-class needs. It is also stupid to not know how much you need.
- GabrielF00 10y ago
  I'm really curious what sort of company you work for (industry, small/medium/large, and country).
kelukelugames 10y ago
The intro to this article is great. One of the reasons to avoid negotiating is because it's scary. All of us are smart people and can read tips on the Internet but it's hard to follow them it. Having someone in your social circle guide and coach you helps.
andrewstuart 10y ago
I've negotiated hundreds or maybe thousands of salaries. The goal should be to find a salary that is appropriate for the employees skills and experience level. Neither too high nor too low. You do not want anyone to "win" the negotiation. The idea is to find a salary that will ensure that the employee feels that they are being appropriately paid during their employment, and will not be browsing jobs because they feel they are under market rate. You want to employer to feel that they have someone who is being paid at a level that reflects the employees skills and experience and is broadly consistent with other employees at a similar level. Negotiating isn't a battle. It's a process of trying to find if there is common ground. If the employee and the employer do not find satisfactory common ground then the negotiation should end gracefully - both parties move on. It's important to work out at the very beginning of the employment process if jobseeker and employee are in the same ballpark on salary - it's silly and wasteful of everyones resources to get to the end of a process only to find out the parties expectations do not synch.
- poikniok 10y ago
  That seems a bit reductionist to me. Basically I think there are a lot of spots where a software developer provides say 500k a year of value to the company, and the company is looking to hire a person for about 150k a year in total comp. But if they hire somebody for 200k a year, it is not as if they are going to get rid of the person, it is still +EV for the company. And while the company might not be quite as delighted with the latter's value proposition, the employee is far better off negotiating aggressively and trying to "win". And as to why the company would not just try and wait and find a person for 150k, it is generally because good software developers are hard to find, and it is easier and lower risk to "overpay" a bit rather than lose out on a good hire.
  - dustingetz 10y ago
    Big companies with margins like that fire for underperformance, so your ev analysis is missing some inputs I think
    - 10y ago
YZF 10y ago
Generally speaking there are two kinds of negotiation situations. One is a one-time negotiation, for example, buying a new or used car. All you care about is getting the best price. You don't really care if you're eating into the dealer's margins. Second is a negotiation that is part of a long term relationship. Here you want to exit the negotiation with both sides feeling good about it. You don't want to jeopardize the relationship for the negotiation. You don't want to screw the other side over. A job offer should be a type II situation. If any of the parties approaches it like a type I then they probably shouldn't be working together. The employee should get an idea of what they'll be happy with and the company should pay the employee what they'll be happy with. If the employee is approaching this with the idea of taking advantage of the company then it basically turns into a type I situation and the company should walk away. If a company is approaching the future employee as a type I negotiation the employee should walk away. I was really excited in a previous job where I figured out what I thought I was worth based on my current comp and some research and when I asked for that I got an offer that was somewhat higher. That told me the company cared about making me happy more than they cared about the (negligible) extra $$$'s. That was all the negotiation. Both sides were happy and I was very enthusiastic on my first day. Now in a type I negotiation I would have been able to squeeze them for more money but this is not a type I negotiation. Another situation where a fairly successful small web company offered me less than I was making at the time. When I tried to get some concessions in other areas like extra vacation time or more time working from home I was flat out refused. Their CTO interviewed and liked me, the team liked me, they got the CFO to tell me how they couldn't afford to pay more. They were really surprised when I declined their offer. From my perspective they were treating me as if they were trying to buy my car and that told me that's the way they would keep treating me if I came to work for them. The way I see it if you've done everything right up to this point and if both sides are interested the offer is pretty much a mere formality. Not a starting point for bazar style bargaining.
- coliveira 10y ago
  > If the employee is approaching this with the idea of taking advantage of the company You should be aware that this is not possible... A company will never hire you for a salary it cannot pay, because they know very well their numbers. On the other hand, it is very easy for workers to be screwed because they don't know how much the company is willing to pay for that position. The only way to get to know how much the company can offer is to ask for a salary that is way higher than the first offer.
zerooneinfinity 10y ago
Am I missing out if I don't try and negotiate higher salaries or raises? I usually feel like what I'm being offered is fair but then again I wonder if I'm being cheated out of money. Like they are offering something low expecting me to request something higher.
- rhizome 10y ago
  I suppose they might hope you won't, but yeah, it's common.
- pm90 10y ago
  You should really read patio11's article on it, but the short of it is that, yes, you should always ask for more. The simple reason being that they won't rescind your offer but might give you more, since they planned a salary range for that position.
  - dtemp 10y ago
    Especially if you ask for a little more. I had friend once who asked for a lot more and they rescinded the offer; because they (probably rightly) figured the two wouldn't have a long relationship together if it's starting like this.
pennyhill 10y ago
It is equally important to be familiar with that organizations don’t all importance you across the similar aspect sometimes. Which is, totally different suppliers are genuinely trying to find several capabilities, and there are a few organizations where you may be more and less beneficial. Even at peer companies this is true, especially so if you have a specialized skill-set. http://www.crazysales.com.au/ http://www.crazysales.com.au/
shawn-butler 10y ago
"Exploding" job offers used to target people on their 1st or 2nd jobs with little or no experience in how the hiring process works is borderline unethical.
- hueving 10y ago
  A job offer is a business deal. The earlier on you learn how to do business, the better it is for your career.
  - shawn-butler 10y ago
    So are used car deals. That's why we have lemon laws. Getting a good deal by fraud harms everyone involved.
- tensor 10y ago
  Sometimes employers need to fill positions fast. In these cases it seems fair for an employer to take the stance: feel free to take time but we'll keep looking in the mean time and if we find someone else who fits then the offer will be withdrawn without notice.
staticelf 10y ago
Great tips and tricks because I suck at negotiating (trying to change that) and am currently looking for a new job which I have to get pretty hasty (since I'm moving for other reasons).
sb8244 10y ago
Enjoyed this read. The part that really stuck out to me was the exploding offers section. IBM performed interviews at my college weeks (or more) before anyone else was even hiring. After doing the interview process and getting an offer, they wanted an answer within 2 days. Obviously I told them that this wasn't going to work, and they basically said it was too bad. A few months later, I got a call asking if I was still available (wasn't at this point). Be prepared to walk away in a negative situation like that, it says a lot about the company.
- fuzzywalrus 10y ago
  Agreed, exploding job offers is a great term for this.
onkarshedge 10y ago
Thanks for sharing. How to negotiate a salary hike during appraisal ?
- chrisbennet 10y ago
  Companies usually have some sort of "rules" that make getting meaningful raises (more than say 3%) "impossible" to keep employees from negotiating meaningful raises. I'm done with that phase of my career but when I worked as an employee, I found it was just easier to move on to another company when my salary fell too far behind my market value.
impossiblegame 10y ago
Rule #11: Disregard rules 1 through 10 if you're a woman, because negotiating your job offer will hurt your career trajectory. Even HBR agrees: https://hbr.org/2016/04/women-who-dont-negotiate-their-salaries-might-have-a-good-reason https://hbr.org/2016/04/women-who-dont-negotiate-their-salar...
- staticelf 10y ago
  Except what you are saying it total BS and you didn't even bother to read either the article you linked to NOR the study. A comment such as yours doesn't really belong. That is given that that study is the exact fact, but it is indeed mostly a study based on polls which I would say is not exactly hard evidence.
mhotchen 10y ago
> A job is just a deal. It is a deal between you and a company to exchange labor for money (and other things you value). This came naturally when I became a contractor. Rather than having a salary based on market rates, I was offering the services of my own company that has N value in a B2B deal. It does sound like an abstract point, but it completely changed the conversation at the table.
ashitlerferad 10y ago
A couple of interesting talks (and article about one of them) about open source and employment contracts: https://lwn.net/Articles/688451/ https://lwn.net/Articles/688451/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-m2ozX9zO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-m2ozX9zO0 http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2016/debconf16/Free_Software_Companies_and_You.webm http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2016/...
mobiuscog 10y ago
So when you're doing an initial phone interview and they say "So what is your current salary, and what are you looking for ?" What are you supposed to say ? Just stay quiet ? Mutter something about not being able to tell them ? I'm all for negotiation, but it seems that every situation I find myself in, doesn't really lend itself to the described pattern.
- Tomrn 10y ago
  My line is always "salary is something I'd discuss in a face-to-face interview". If they push just apologise and say you're not comfortable discussing your salary over the phone.
  - mobiuscog 10y ago
    Thanks. That seems a fairly reasonable way of addressing it.
Taylor_OD 10y ago
I'm a big fan of Haseeb's writing. Looking forward to part two.
jrjarrett 10y ago
There is an implicit assumption in this entire article: That if you can't come to an agreeable negotiation of salary, you can walk away from offer N because there will be an offer N+1. Maybe in The Valley or Manhattan or Austin, but in many other places, there is no "N+1". You don't have that implicit position of power with Company N that Company N+1 will give you what you're asking for. Or you don't have time to find N+1 before N-1 becomes untenable (or non-existent). And yes, I'm talking about developer jobs.
pramit 10y ago
I agree with 'neither too high, nor too low' strategy while negotiating the salary. These guides from The Success Manual might also help: https://www.thesuccessmanual.in/category/career-success https://www.thesuccessmanual.in/category/career-success http://www.thesuccessmanual.in/chapter/how-to-negotiate-your-salary-the-ultimate-guide http://www.thesuccessmanual.in/chapter/how-to-negotiate-your...

361 points by mikecarlton 10y ago

pm90 10y ago

This is a really good article and I would highly recommend it. In case other HN'ers are wondering, its complimentary to patio11's posts on salary negotiation. I especially agree with the point made at the end that it really helps if you try to understand the employer's perspective as well. Remember that the best outcome should be a win-win situation in which both the company and the future employee are happy with the outcome. I really disliked to work in places where the job was very good but the pay was definitely not the best. The best way to fix this is to negotiate a good pay at the start: that way you can fully focus on the exciting work.

tensor 10y ago
Yes, as in a sale, if both parties walk away happy it was a good sale. I feel there is way too much "screw the companies" attitude here.

Mendenhall 10y ago

Well reasoned post that I agree with many points. I had said in a previous thread and would add here, never forget you are the one in control and never be desperate.

auxym 10y ago

I enjoyed reading this post, as well as I did patio11's a few years ago, but I feel that a lot of the advice applies mostly to highly in-demand workers (read: software people). At least, so has been my limited experience.

stale2002 10y ago
Well obviously it only applies to software people. That's why it was posted to HACKER news. :P

lwhalen 10y ago

Don't suppose anyone could link patio11's posts, could they? I've seen them referenced twice now, and would love to check them out :-)

auxym 10y ago
Probably these http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro...

phamilton 10y ago

I stalled in comp and title for about 2 years due to an acquisition. While I was definitely maximizing my compensation, it was a miserable experience. Perhaps I lack the mental fortitude to not skip in to complacency, but for those two years there was no difference between an excellent job done and a mediocre one. After about 12 months of erring on the side of excellent, I just gave up. I did the minimum required and got paid handsomely for it. I eventually left and took a pay cut. It may have been extenuating circumstances but I do wonder if I would have been happier with less compensation and more room to grow. That being said, the burden of preventing overcompensation lies on the hiring manager. The candidate should push for as much as possible and the hiring manager should make a judgement call about whether the employee will have room to grow.

pm90 10y ago
Taking a cut in salary in lieu of room to grow or anything else should be decided very very carefully. You must really understand that you actually do have an opportunity to grow; at the very least, you should know that its risky and have evaluated the risk as one worth taking.
- phamilton 10y ago
  Very true. In this case, it was actually an increase in salary but a loss of liquid stock compensation in favor of illiquid stock options. Overall cashflow, it was a pay cut. Median/Mode outcome, probably still a pay cut. With extremely high variance, I believe the Mean outcome is probably a break even. As far as not having room to grow, I can probably sum that up in a single word: Yahoo!

stygiansonic 10y ago

To add to point #3, (information is power), I would advise any candidate to do research into approx. salary ranges for the type of positions they've applied to and the geographical area in which they are located. The author does lament the general trend of "pay secrecy" in part 2 [2] of his previous article on how he landed a job at Airbnb[1] but it's worthwhile to point out here. Almost any offer/salary does not exist in a vacuum but within the context of the current salary ranges (i.e. the market) for similar positions and also different positions. Look at it this way: If I tell you that apples are 2 Simoleons (§) per lb, is that a good price? There's hardly any way to know, given that I quoted it in a fictional currency. But if you know that oranges are 10§/lb, bananas are 5§/lb and that you can get a job at the grocery store selling them making 20§/hour, that gives some context to not only the prices of apples, but also the relative value of different produce and the ability to afford it. This is the essence of a market economy, which the job economy is an instance of. Sites like Glassdoor and other efforts to share salary information[3] (even if they may be subject to reporting bias) are a good way to give you more information about the relative value of any offer, which will be another tool in your kit for negotiation. Read as much as you can, as in my experience it will be well worth your time. 1. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/ http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/ 2. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii/ http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii... 3. https://blog.step.com/2016/06/16/more-salaries-twitter-linkedin/ https://blog.step.com/2016/06/16/more-salaries-twitter-linke...

gentleteblor 10y ago
"information is power" <-- amen to this. It's also important to gather another type of information, and that's information about yourself. You've got to be able to prove (detailed instances, dates even) how you've added value in the past (which hopefully means you can again). You need leverage for these negotiations and that involves knowing what you're worth and what the market thinks you're worth (not always the same).

freework 10y ago

This whole thing seems so overwhelming. I understand negotiation is a skill that you can learn, but like anything else, it takes a lot of practice to get really good. In a way, negotiation is the polar opposite skill as computer programming. As a programmer, what you do is anything but negotiation. You don't negotiate with PHP to get you code running the way you want it to. You tell it exactly what you want it to do, then PHP does exactly that.

dasil003 10y ago
You only say that because you're good at programming. I remember folks in the computer lab trying to negotiate with god for their code to run...
- BWStearns 10y ago
  Depending on the language or tooling I sometimes still do (is undef gt or lt 0?).
scotty79 10y ago
It's really easy. Just few tricks that go normal decent human reflexes. Just biting your tongue a bit and not reacting to first financial offer on the spot, taking a break in communication suggesting that you need to consult (your partner, your plans), reject first offer after this consideration can get you far. Plus being enthusiastic about everything but the money (thoughtful and bit distanced (concerned?) about that, until you get the offer you want to finish with, then enthusiastic as well).
imh 10y ago
The best advice I've read makes it feel much less like a skill. Do your homework and decide what price you would walk away from. It's easy to raise the price you would walk away from by having multiple offers, and once you've done your homework you can have a normal discussion about their offer. Instead of something equally vague as "I'd like more" you can say exactly why you think you should get more.
pm90 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

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vladimirralev 10y ago

Quite a lot similar posts recently. The more these points are repeated over and over again, the less relevant they are. That same advice you can find in articles from 50 years ago. As more people are pretending to be excited about the job no matter what and not motivated by money just to appear more attractive it lowers the performance scores everywhere and it just doesn't work anymore. The most productive negotiations should be straight talk about the numbers and terms. You shouldn't just hope the other party is stupid and will agree to less than fair terms. When somebody brings up a number ask or explain where it comes from and how does it compare to other numbers. Ask if their offer is fair, something that they would take in your shoes, so that if they say yes and later on it turns out that was not the case, you can raise the issue with a good reason. If the other party starts to get forgetful, dodge questions or lie - fine, you can treat them as a hostile party, but it makes no sense to start off with deception and advantage play against your team. Especially in startups. Big companies have moved on from this more or less anyway.

StevePerkins 10y ago

I wonder if the "game" operates somewhat differently for junior people, versus developers with 10 to 15+ years experience? When I was fresh out of school, at the tail end of the dot-com boom, negotiation seemed very much central. Employers (and the third-party recruiters working for them) always wanted me to throw out the first number, or wanted to know what I was making at my last job. Then once I was at the new company for awhile, people would gossip... and I'd always discover that I'd low-balled myself. So I would leave, using the apparent market rate as my baseline in the next search. And I simply stopped disclosing what I was making at the previous job. I learned that the difference between a $70k candidate and a $90k candidate is basically just that the latter declares himself to be a $90k candidate. However, once I crossed over the $120k line (at least in my local market) it seemed that things plateaued and changed a bit. It's not as easy to just "declare" that you're a $180k candidate rather than a $140k candidate. At that level, you often start to find that you're interviewing for managerial positions rather an individual contributor technical role. At this stage of my career, I pretty much tell the recruiter my target (which happens to be about 5-10% more than my current salary), and then I'm not even wasting my time interviewing with companies that won't go that high. Ten or fifteen years ago, I was apparently selling myself short. Today, I don't talk about salary IRL, because I'm making significantly higher than what I hear through gossip or see on Glassdoor. Is this common for other experienced devs out there? Or am I selling myself short, and probably should be making $750k for a non-managerial job outside of the Bay Area by now? (haha)

geocar 10y ago
This is common for some developers, but a lot of people view themselves as an "experienced" developer who aren't making this much money: They should read your post carefully and appreciate the fact that either they aren't as experienced as they think they are, or they are selling themselves short. Or perhaps they want to use the term "experienced" to refer to someone less experience. Whatever. That said, if you want to be making $750k programming outside the bay area, it's possible, but the recruiters on cybercoders and linkedin aren't going to help you get these jobs...
- dexwiz 10y ago

imh 10y ago

I don't know why, but I get really frustrated at the negative sentiment around and apologetics for negotiation. >I’m the first to admit that negotiation is stupid. It’s a practice that inherently benefits those who are good at it, and is an absurd axis on which to reward people. But it’s a reality of our economic system. When incentives are opposed (like me wanting good wages, and companies wanting to pay me at little as possible, all else being equal), negotiation seems like the only way to decide how to reach an agreement. Of course it inherently benefits people who are good at it! Those benefits are the things they are negotiating! Instead of calling it an absurd axis to use to reach mutually agreeable terms, why can't we accept that negotiation is how reach those terms?

HaseebQ 10y ago
I see where you're coming from, and I think there are things negotiation does well. Negotiation allows a company to offer more (or less) than a standard wage when a candidate genuinely offers more or less value for the same position. Economically, that seems like a good thing, and I consider that the principal virtue of negotiation. But the downside is that negotiation enables candidates who are better at negotiating to command stronger offers (because they're more charismatic, or courageous, or just better studied in the practice of negotiating). That's clearly arbitrary. Negotiating skill is an axis that's mostly orthogonal to the value a candidate brings to a company. Here the public sector's system of having fixed, publicly known wages for positions is a good one. Candidates who are good at negotiating make just as much as candidates who are bad at it. The question then boils down to how much of the variation in negotiated offers can be attributed to variation value as opposed to variation in negotiating skills. I suspect it's weighted toward the latter. But if you think it's mostly toward the former, then I think it's sensible to claim that negotiation is mostly a good thing.
- imh 10y ago
  >The question then boils down to how much of the variation in negotiated offers can be attributed to variation value as opposed to variation in negotiating skills. I think this covers most of it, but it all feels like it's only one side of the supply-demand equation. All else equal, the value to the company doesn't change whether you are one of 100 people with your skill set or one of a gazillion. But the wages certainly will. I think that's totally fair thing, and we can't get it with your model of just value to the company and negotiating skill.

p1itopre 10y ago

Given my technical background (SWE), I have found only one useful tip for salary negotiations during a job offer: get atleast two offers and play the companies against each other. I've found nothing else to be effective.

onion2k 10y ago
That might work if you have a unique skill that both companies need, but if there's another appropriate candidate to hire instead most companies will hire that guy and recommend that you accept the other company's role. What my company offers is based what value you're bring to the business. If another company sees you as more valuable that's brilliant, but it doesn't change what you bring to mine.
branchless 10y ago
Basically: have a real card to play that they think you might play. Companies will empathise to the end of the earth with you about anything, however you have to have that card.
deleted 10y ago
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anotherevan 10y ago

FYI, This looks like a republish of his original blog post[1] that was discussed previously[2]. [1] http://haseebq.com/my-ten-rules-for-negotiating-a-job-offer/ http://haseebq.com/my-ten-rules-for-negotiating-a-job-offer/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12086876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12086876

dominotw 10y ago

This guy is a legend!! http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/ http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/

wruza 10y ago

This ruleset leads him to special sort of companies that "hunt stars at any cost". If you're so precious AND have speech skill, maybe that's for you. But maybe get less-tech, speech-oriented job then? Most employees are just workers, not stars, and at least among my management environment there is a simple rule: skip negotiators. If he can't tell what he wants, we do not call again. If he said X, we do not negotiate that. Negotiation is about skill and whether he will work here or not, which position and/or responsibilities he will take. Not about salary. It is stupid to constraint employee's living and needs, no matter if these are first- or second-class needs. It is also stupid to not know how much you need.

GabrielF00 10y ago
I'm really curious what sort of company you work for (industry, small/medium/large, and country).

kelukelugames 10y ago

The intro to this article is great. One of the reasons to avoid negotiating is because it's scary. All of us are smart people and can read tips on the Internet but it's hard to follow them it. Having someone in your social circle guide and coach you helps.

andrewstuart 10y ago

I've negotiated hundreds or maybe thousands of salaries. The goal should be to find a salary that is appropriate for the employees skills and experience level. Neither too high nor too low. You do not want anyone to "win" the negotiation. The idea is to find a salary that will ensure that the employee feels that they are being appropriately paid during their employment, and will not be browsing jobs because they feel they are under market rate. You want to employer to feel that they have someone who is being paid at a level that reflects the employees skills and experience and is broadly consistent with other employees at a similar level. Negotiating isn't a battle. It's a process of trying to find if there is common ground. If the employee and the employer do not find satisfactory common ground then the negotiation should end gracefully - both parties move on. It's important to work out at the very beginning of the employment process if jobseeker and employee are in the same ballpark on salary - it's silly and wasteful of everyones resources to get to the end of a process only to find out the parties expectations do not synch.

poikniok 10y ago
That seems a bit reductionist to me. Basically I think there are a lot of spots where a software developer provides say 500k a year of value to the company, and the company is looking to hire a person for about 150k a year in total comp. But if they hire somebody for 200k a year, it is not as if they are going to get rid of the person, it is still +EV for the company. And while the company might not be quite as delighted with the latter's value proposition, the employee is far better off negotiating aggressively and trying to "win". And as to why the company would not just try and wait and find a person for 150k, it is generally because good software developers are hard to find, and it is easier and lower risk to "overpay" a bit rather than lose out on a good hire.
- dustingetz 10y ago
  Big companies with margins like that fire for underperformance, so your ev analysis is missing some inputs I think
  - 10y ago

YZF 10y ago

Generally speaking there are two kinds of negotiation situations. One is a one-time negotiation, for example, buying a new or used car. All you care about is getting the best price. You don't really care if you're eating into the dealer's margins. Second is a negotiation that is part of a long term relationship. Here you want to exit the negotiation with both sides feeling good about it. You don't want to jeopardize the relationship for the negotiation. You don't want to screw the other side over. A job offer should be a type II situation. If any of the parties approaches it like a type I then they probably shouldn't be working together. The employee should get an idea of what they'll be happy with and the company should pay the employee what they'll be happy with. If the employee is approaching this with the idea of taking advantage of the company then it basically turns into a type I situation and the company should walk away. If a company is approaching the future employee as a type I negotiation the employee should walk away. I was really excited in a previous job where I figured out what I thought I was worth based on my current comp and some research and when I asked for that I got an offer that was somewhat higher. That told me the company cared about making me happy more than they cared about the (negligible) extra $$$'s. That was all the negotiation. Both sides were happy and I was very enthusiastic on my first day. Now in a type I negotiation I would have been able to squeeze them for more money but this is not a type I negotiation. Another situation where a fairly successful small web company offered me less than I was making at the time. When I tried to get some concessions in other areas like extra vacation time or more time working from home I was flat out refused. Their CTO interviewed and liked me, the team liked me, they got the CFO to tell me how they couldn't afford to pay more. They were really surprised when I declined their offer. From my perspective they were treating me as if they were trying to buy my car and that told me that's the way they would keep treating me if I came to work for them. The way I see it if you've done everything right up to this point and if both sides are interested the offer is pretty much a mere formality. Not a starting point for bazar style bargaining.

coliveira 10y ago
> If the employee is approaching this with the idea of taking advantage of the company You should be aware that this is not possible... A company will never hire you for a salary it cannot pay, because they know very well their numbers. On the other hand, it is very easy for workers to be screwed because they don't know how much the company is willing to pay for that position. The only way to get to know how much the company can offer is to ask for a salary that is way higher than the first offer.

zerooneinfinity 10y ago

Am I missing out if I don't try and negotiate higher salaries or raises? I usually feel like what I'm being offered is fair but then again I wonder if I'm being cheated out of money. Like they are offering something low expecting me to request something higher.

rhizome 10y ago
I suppose they might hope you won't, but yeah, it's common.
pm90 10y ago
You should really read patio11's article on it, but the short of it is that, yes, you should always ask for more. The simple reason being that they won't rescind your offer but might give you more, since they planned a salary range for that position.
- dtemp 10y ago
  Especially if you ask for a little more. I had friend once who asked for a lot more and they rescinded the offer; because they (probably rightly) figured the two wouldn't have a long relationship together if it's starting like this.

pennyhill 10y ago

It is equally important to be familiar with that organizations don’t all importance you across the similar aspect sometimes. Which is, totally different suppliers are genuinely trying to find several capabilities, and there are a few organizations where you may be more and less beneficial. Even at peer companies this is true, especially so if you have a specialized skill-set. http://www.crazysales.com.au/ http://www.crazysales.com.au/

shawn-butler 10y ago

"Exploding" job offers used to target people on their 1st or 2nd jobs with little or no experience in how the hiring process works is borderline unethical.

hueving 10y ago
A job offer is a business deal. The earlier on you learn how to do business, the better it is for your career.
- shawn-butler 10y ago
  So are used car deals. That's why we have lemon laws. Getting a good deal by fraud harms everyone involved.
tensor 10y ago
Sometimes employers need to fill positions fast. In these cases it seems fair for an employer to take the stance: feel free to take time but we'll keep looking in the mean time and if we find someone else who fits then the offer will be withdrawn without notice.

staticelf 10y ago

Great tips and tricks because I suck at negotiating (trying to change that) and am currently looking for a new job which I have to get pretty hasty (since I'm moving for other reasons).

sb8244 10y ago

Enjoyed this read. The part that really stuck out to me was the exploding offers section. IBM performed interviews at my college weeks (or more) before anyone else was even hiring. After doing the interview process and getting an offer, they wanted an answer within 2 days. Obviously I told them that this wasn't going to work, and they basically said it was too bad. A few months later, I got a call asking if I was still available (wasn't at this point). Be prepared to walk away in a negative situation like that, it says a lot about the company.

fuzzywalrus 10y ago
Agreed, exploding job offers is a great term for this.

onkarshedge 10y ago

Thanks for sharing. How to negotiate a salary hike during appraisal ?

chrisbennet 10y ago
Companies usually have some sort of "rules" that make getting meaningful raises (more than say 3%) "impossible" to keep employees from negotiating meaningful raises. I'm done with that phase of my career but when I worked as an employee, I found it was just easier to move on to another company when my salary fell too far behind my market value.

impossiblegame 10y ago

Rule #11: Disregard rules 1 through 10 if you're a woman, because negotiating your job offer will hurt your career trajectory. Even HBR agrees: https://hbr.org/2016/04/women-who-dont-negotiate-their-salaries-might-have-a-good-reason https://hbr.org/2016/04/women-who-dont-negotiate-their-salar...

staticelf 10y ago
Except what you are saying it total BS and you didn't even bother to read either the article you linked to NOR the study. A comment such as yours doesn't really belong. That is given that that study is the exact fact, but it is indeed mostly a study based on polls which I would say is not exactly hard evidence.

mhotchen 10y ago

> A job is just a deal. It is a deal between you and a company to exchange labor for money (and other things you value). This came naturally when I became a contractor. Rather than having a salary based on market rates, I was offering the services of my own company that has N value in a B2B deal. It does sound like an abstract point, but it completely changed the conversation at the table.

ashitlerferad 10y ago

A couple of interesting talks (and article about one of them) about open source and employment contracts: https://lwn.net/Articles/688451/ https://lwn.net/Articles/688451/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-m2ozX9zO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-m2ozX9zO0 http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2016/debconf16/Free_Software_Companies_and_You.webm http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2016/...

mobiuscog 10y ago

So when you're doing an initial phone interview and they say "So what is your current salary, and what are you looking for ?" What are you supposed to say ? Just stay quiet ? Mutter something about not being able to tell them ? I'm all for negotiation, but it seems that every situation I find myself in, doesn't really lend itself to the described pattern.

Tomrn 10y ago
My line is always "salary is something I'd discuss in a face-to-face interview". If they push just apologise and say you're not comfortable discussing your salary over the phone.
- mobiuscog 10y ago
  Thanks. That seems a fairly reasonable way of addressing it.

Taylor_OD 10y ago

I'm a big fan of Haseeb's writing. Looking forward to part two.

jrjarrett 10y ago

There is an implicit assumption in this entire article: That if you can't come to an agreeable negotiation of salary, you can walk away from offer N because there will be an offer N+1. Maybe in The Valley or Manhattan or Austin, but in many other places, there is no "N+1". You don't have that implicit position of power with Company N that Company N+1 will give you what you're asking for. Or you don't have time to find N+1 before N-1 becomes untenable (or non-existent). And yes, I'm talking about developer jobs.

pramit 10y ago

I agree with 'neither too high, nor too low' strategy while negotiating the salary. These guides from The Success Manual might also help: https://www.thesuccessmanual.in/category/career-success https://www.thesuccessmanual.in/category/career-success http://www.thesuccessmanual.in/chapter/how-to-negotiate-your-salary-the-ultimate-guide http://www.thesuccessmanual.in/chapter/how-to-negotiate-your...