5 ms·

I do think there is something unique about training in the 'hard' analytic disciplines (math, computer science, physics, etc.). In particular, one learns to be

I do think there is something unique about training in the 'hard' analytic disciplines (math, computer science, physics, etc.). In particular, one learns to be wrong often, and that the result of one's hard-fought intellectual effort is often objectively incorrect. At the very least, math accelerates the process of discovering this, and so is a very good teacher of intellectual humility. The fact that you jumped to 'other people's sloppy thinking' as your first example is somewhat telling. The point is that your whole perspective can shift from thinking that you're smarter than other people and need to correct their mistakes, to understanding how to collaborate with other smart people over difficult problems while everyone is making and correcting mistakes.

BariumBlue 10y ago
The "hard analytical disciplines" require understanding the fundamentals of whatever they work with, in order to process those fundamentals together into a useful effect. Getting meaning across via words is fundamentally the same process.
- joe_the_user 10y ago
  "Getting meaning across via words is fundamentally the same process." -- Here, I think you've distilled the basic assumption of the op and I would claim someone with enough exposure to mathematics will know this claim is wrong. Informal arguments may indeed be carefully and even exactly argued but they nearly always involve implicit emotional appeals, appeals to unstated common assumptions and definitions and so-forth. Mathematics is different - the arguments are absolute, given the assumptions is can be demonstrated that the conclusions follow, even to the point of the proofs being mechanically verifiable. The reason someone making mathematically assumptions often has to admit their wrong is the arguments have follow a determined series of steps whereas someone with a strongly held, strongly articulated belief-system about the ordinary world can have a plausible answer to every objection but with some portion of those answers being appeals to commonly held beliefs in society.
  - jknoepfler 10y ago
    Having done graduate work in both computer science and philosophy (and having a healthy respect for both), I agree with this assessment. It's part of what I was trying to articulate. Although I think some of the philosophers (particularly the historians of philosophy) that I've met have been some of the most intelligent, rational, and well-spoken people I've met, I think there's a keen difference between the critical thinking abilities of the computer science undergraduates vs. the philosophy undergraduates that I've seen graduate from a university/college, and I chalk a lot of this up to learning to be wrong very quickly in formal disciplines.
ianai 10y ago
That in my experience is a huge differentiating factor between analytical people and everyone else. Most people look on admitting failure as a great horribleness to be avoided at all costs. at my current corporate job I've often been looked at as insane for being open about such things.
maroonblazer 10y ago
>The fact that you jumped to 'other people's sloppy thinking' as your first example is somewhat telling. You'll have to take my word for it but I'm under no illusion as to my smartness relative to others. More often than not I'm the dumbest person in the room. I learned the hard way that I have plenty of blind spots and I'm the first person I should be checking for 'sloppy thinking'.

BariumBlue 10y ago

The "hard analytical disciplines" require understanding the fundamentals of whatever they work with, in order to process those fundamentals together into a useful effect. Getting meaning across via words is fundamentally the same process.

joe_the_user 10y ago
"Getting meaning across via words is fundamentally the same process." -- Here, I think you've distilled the basic assumption of the op and I would claim someone with enough exposure to mathematics will know this claim is wrong. Informal arguments may indeed be carefully and even exactly argued but they nearly always involve implicit emotional appeals, appeals to unstated common assumptions and definitions and so-forth. Mathematics is different - the arguments are absolute, given the assumptions is can be demonstrated that the conclusions follow, even to the point of the proofs being mechanically verifiable. The reason someone making mathematically assumptions often has to admit their wrong is the arguments have follow a determined series of steps whereas someone with a strongly held, strongly articulated belief-system about the ordinary world can have a plausible answer to every objection but with some portion of those answers being appeals to commonly held beliefs in society.
- jknoepfler 10y ago
  Having done graduate work in both computer science and philosophy (and having a healthy respect for both), I agree with this assessment. It's part of what I was trying to articulate. Although I think some of the philosophers (particularly the historians of philosophy) that I've met have been some of the most intelligent, rational, and well-spoken people I've met, I think there's a keen difference between the critical thinking abilities of the computer science undergraduates vs. the philosophy undergraduates that I've seen graduate from a university/college, and I chalk a lot of this up to learning to be wrong very quickly in formal disciplines.

ianai 10y ago

That in my experience is a huge differentiating factor between analytical people and everyone else. Most people look on admitting failure as a great horribleness to be avoided at all costs. at my current corporate job I've often been looked at as insane for being open about such things.

maroonblazer 10y ago

>The fact that you jumped to 'other people's sloppy thinking' as your first example is somewhat telling. You'll have to take my word for it but I'm under no illusion as to my smartness relative to others. More often than not I'm the dumbest person in the room. I learned the hard way that I have plenty of blind spots and I'm the first person I should be checking for 'sloppy thinking'.