8 ms·

Native Virtualization For macOS

84 points by izik_e2 10y ago

LeoPanthera 10y ago
Last time I tried Veertu it was crazy buggy. I emailed them a bunch of bug reports which, to their credit, they did acknowledge. It will be interesting to see if they're fixed. Edit: No, they're not. The Ubuntu image, on my iMac, just flickers its window horribly and is unusable. Edit 2: There are some improvements. The Debian image now boots! It boots into the installer, which is interesting. Doing a full GUI install right now. Edit 3: The same flickering problem affects Debian after a GUI install. Shame. This is a video I made earlier, demonstrating the problem: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4419997/Flicker.mp4 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4419997/Flicker.mp4
- marora 10y ago
  ubuntu 16.04.1 works fine. Very good graphical experience. Have you tried it?
  - LeoPanthera 10y ago
    Yes, that's what I was referring to. It seems to be hardware specific. On some Macs it's fine, on others (particularly newer ones, it seems) its unusable.
    - izik_e2 10y ago
      It is interesting, are you using the latest version from the App Store?
      - LeoPanthera 10y ago
        Yes.
- smartbit 10y ago
  Have you tried "Retina HDPI support" in Advanced VM settings?
binaryanomaly 10y ago
The lean approach is interesting - I like. Unfortunately veertu is way behind Parallels and VMWare in terms of features, compatibility, comfort, etc. I wouldn't recommend it for productive workloads, yet.
bluedino 10y ago
How does this work, being able to be downloaded from the app store and all?
- LeoPanthera 10y ago
  It uses Hypervisor.framework, much like xhyve does, the Mac port of bhyve. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/DriversKernelHardware/Reference/Hypervisor/ https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Driver...
DanielDent 10y ago
I bought Veertu through the Mac app store on an early 2009 MacBook Pro. The CPU instructions used for native virtualization are not enabled on the machine. Despite not being compatible with the machine on which I was purchasing, and despite not having documentation on the app store purchase page about the limitations, it let me buy the app - which refused to function. When I requested a refund - after trying multiple times through Apple's horrific broken iTunes refund process - they denied the refund without explanation as to why they did not deem me worthy of a refund for the defective product they sold me. Possibly if I had the time to spend hours phoning and finding someone to listen I could have gotten a refund. My takeaway from the experience was a reminder that I was a terrible person for supporting the apple app store business model - a model which inches closer to being mandatory for developers every day.
- NEDM64 10y ago
  I've got my purchases refunded multiple times on the AppStore just by writing "the app doesn't do what the description says".
- LeoPanthera 10y ago
  I can't explain why you didn't get a refund, but there is a free version of Veertu you can try first, to make sure it works.
  - DanielDent 10y ago
    But it's crippled. I didn't want to waste my time evaluating a product other than the one which was interesting to me.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      Well, seems like you ended up wasting even more time AND money.
- awinder 10y ago
  How long between buying it and requesting a refund? I've never had an issue getting refunded through that simple form wizard but it's always been within 72 hours of purchase.
RantyDave 10y ago
It's a trap! Also, VirtualBox is a lot better than you remember it.
- NEDM64 10y ago
  Doesn't use the native and fast hypervisor.
  - LeoPanthera 10y ago
    The native hypervisor doesn't support connecting USB devices to the VM, though.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      Web (and other) developers usually don't connect USB devices to the VM anyway, through.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        I'm not sure why the downvotes. Do web developers using VMs for development connect USB devices to them? Does the majority even run something like vagrant linux image with a GUI and mouse?
        seabrookmx 10y ago
        I don't think the downvotes were warranted. That said, I will be devils advocate here. I tend to develop on multiple machines, some of them windows.. so I like having a consistent experience. Jetbrains tools on a Linux desktop (in a VM on each host) offer that. I then keep my working git repos on a USB stick and mount them into the VM. There's ways to work around that though.. such as host the USB over SMB and then mount the share inside of the VM.. or use a cloud service of some kind.. but it's a bit more clunky. USB passthrough seems like a basic feature of a hypervisor IMO.
    - seabrookmx 10y ago
sscarduzio 10y ago
downloaded ubuntu gnome 16.04 and it's hogging my CPU really badly. VMWare is way more light weight than this, at the moment. Lots of work to do.
nwrk 10y ago
Happy Veertu user + plus nice vagrant integration [0] The performance is on par with native Docker for OSX and for sure faster than VirtualBox / VMWARE. [0] https://veertu.com/knowledgebase/vagrant-setup-instructions/ https://veertu.com/knowledgebase/vagrant-setup-instructions/
- seabrookmx 10y ago
  That's because "native" docker for OS X uses the same built-in Apple hypervisor under the hood to host the Linux kernel. Virtualizing Linux in Veertu and then installing Docker on it is basically the same thing.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
r3w 10y ago
Last January [1] there was a report of Veertu violating QEMU's GPL license. There seem to be quite a few users in this thread, could anyone confirm them? [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2016-01/msg05730.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2016-01/msg057...
- marora 10y ago
  I am from Veertu. We don't have GPL code in our hypervisor. We have BSD And LGPL, and if you are interested in the source code, we are in the process of open sourcing our core hypervisor.
  - r3w 10y ago
    How do you get the source to the LGPL components?
    - izik_e2 10y ago
      As part of the process of open sourcing the core hypervisor we are updating the site with the lgpl library sources.
      - acathrow 10y ago
        It's about time, Veertu has been using a lot of LGPL code without attribution or any visible attempts to comply with LGPL license requirements for the many components used. Hopefully you guys did a true clean room implementation of the GPL components of QEMU.
mthoms 10y ago
Okay so it says "free" on the App Store. But the App store says there is $39.99 "Premium" version available. I'm either an idiot or there is no obvious way to find out how the free version is crippled (without downloading and playing around with it). Nothing on the App store listing and nothing even on their website (!) I'm so sick of these scummy tricks. Just be upfront with your value proposition and I'll either give you my money or I won't. Don't waste my time.
- api 10y ago
  It's a trial that lets you install a number of OSes from pre-built images. It's $39 to unlock the ability to install from ISOs or import from Parallels, etc. But I agree. Better to just charge for the damn thing.
  - oddevan 10y ago
    They have a version that is just $40 for the whole thing called "Veertu for Business". But on top of that, $40 is a lot to pay for an app sight unseen, so they wanted to have a way of offering a "free trial" or test mode for free. They are VERY upfront about what the whole price is, and it's not a hidden ongoing charge. This is the best use of in-app purchases IMO. Though to be fair, I've got an iOS app with the exact same business model, so I'm biased. :)
    - mthoms 10y ago
      >They are VERY upfront about what the whole price is You're kidding right? It doesn't mention the price anywhere on the site (but it does say "Download for free at the app store" front and center). In any other business that'd be considered a bait and switch. There is a vague mention of the premium version in a single paragraph. Elsewhere they appear to go way out of their way not to mention it: Developers can download various Linux distributions from Veertu Cloud Image Library and run VMs in few minutes, for no charge. Alternatively, they can also setup Windows VMs with ISO files. Windows 7 and higher version are supported. Users can also import existing VM images from VirtualBox, Fusion and Parallels. That's weasel wording, plain and simple. I agree though, it's better than a subscription pricing model. But to be honest I have no real quarrel with the model itself anyways - I just think they should be up front about the offer.

84 points by izik_e2 10y ago

Last time I tried Veertu it was crazy buggy. I emailed them a bunch of bug reports which, to their credit, they did acknowledge. It will be interesting to see if they're fixed. Edit: No, they're not. The Ubuntu image, on my iMac, just flickers its window horribly and is unusable. Edit 2: There are some improvements. The Debian image now boots! It boots into the installer, which is interesting. Doing a full GUI install right now. Edit 3: The same flickering problem affects Debian after a GUI install. Shame. This is a video I made earlier, demonstrating the problem: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4419997/Flicker.mp4 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4419997/Flicker.mp4

marora 10y ago
ubuntu 16.04.1 works fine. Very good graphical experience. Have you tried it?
- LeoPanthera 10y ago
  Yes, that's what I was referring to. It seems to be hardware specific. On some Macs it's fine, on others (particularly newer ones, it seems) its unusable.
  - izik_e2 10y ago
    It is interesting, are you using the latest version from the App Store?
    - LeoPanthera 10y ago
      Yes.
smartbit 10y ago
Have you tried "Retina HDPI support" in Advanced VM settings?

binaryanomaly 10y ago

The lean approach is interesting - I like. Unfortunately veertu is way behind Parallels and VMWare in terms of features, compatibility, comfort, etc. I wouldn't recommend it for productive workloads, yet.

bluedino 10y ago

How does this work, being able to be downloaded from the app store and all?

LeoPanthera 10y ago
It uses Hypervisor.framework, much like xhyve does, the Mac port of bhyve. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/DriversKernelHardware/Reference/Hypervisor/ https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Driver...

DanielDent 10y ago

I bought Veertu through the Mac app store on an early 2009 MacBook Pro. The CPU instructions used for native virtualization are not enabled on the machine. Despite not being compatible with the machine on which I was purchasing, and despite not having documentation on the app store purchase page about the limitations, it let me buy the app - which refused to function. When I requested a refund - after trying multiple times through Apple's horrific broken iTunes refund process - they denied the refund without explanation as to why they did not deem me worthy of a refund for the defective product they sold me. Possibly if I had the time to spend hours phoning and finding someone to listen I could have gotten a refund. My takeaway from the experience was a reminder that I was a terrible person for supporting the apple app store business model - a model which inches closer to being mandatory for developers every day.

NEDM64 10y ago
I've got my purchases refunded multiple times on the AppStore just by writing "the app doesn't do what the description says".
LeoPanthera 10y ago
I can't explain why you didn't get a refund, but there is a free version of Veertu you can try first, to make sure it works.
- DanielDent 10y ago
  But it's crippled. I didn't want to waste my time evaluating a product other than the one which was interesting to me.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Well, seems like you ended up wasting even more time AND money.
awinder 10y ago
How long between buying it and requesting a refund? I've never had an issue getting refunded through that simple form wizard but it's always been within 72 hours of purchase.

RantyDave 10y ago

It's a trap! Also, VirtualBox is a lot better than you remember it.

NEDM64 10y ago
Doesn't use the native and fast hypervisor.
- LeoPanthera 10y ago
  The native hypervisor doesn't support connecting USB devices to the VM, though.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Web (and other) developers usually don't connect USB devices to the VM anyway, through.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      I'm not sure why the downvotes. Do web developers using VMs for development connect USB devices to them? Does the majority even run something like vagrant linux image with a GUI and mouse?
      - seabrookmx 10y ago
        I don't think the downvotes were warranted. That said, I will be devils advocate here. I tend to develop on multiple machines, some of them windows.. so I like having a consistent experience. Jetbrains tools on a Linux desktop (in a VM on each host) offer that. I then keep my working git repos on a USB stick and mount them into the VM. There's ways to work around that though.. such as host the USB over SMB and then mount the share inside of the VM.. or use a cloud service of some kind.. but it's a bit more clunky. USB passthrough seems like a basic feature of a hypervisor IMO.
  - seabrookmx 10y ago

sscarduzio 10y ago

downloaded ubuntu gnome 16.04 and it's hogging my CPU really badly. VMWare is way more light weight than this, at the moment. Lots of work to do.

nwrk 10y ago

Happy Veertu user + plus nice vagrant integration [0] The performance is on par with native Docker for OSX and for sure faster than VirtualBox / VMWARE. [0] https://veertu.com/knowledgebase/vagrant-setup-instructions/ https://veertu.com/knowledgebase/vagrant-setup-instructions/

seabrookmx 10y ago
That's because "native" docker for OS X uses the same built-in Apple hypervisor under the hood to host the Linux kernel. Virtualizing Linux in Veertu and then installing Docker on it is basically the same thing.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

r3w 10y ago

Last January [1] there was a report of Veertu violating QEMU's GPL license. There seem to be quite a few users in this thread, could anyone confirm them? [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2016-01/msg05730.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2016-01/msg057...

marora 10y ago
I am from Veertu. We don't have GPL code in our hypervisor. We have BSD And LGPL, and if you are interested in the source code, we are in the process of open sourcing our core hypervisor.
- r3w 10y ago
  How do you get the source to the LGPL components?
  - izik_e2 10y ago
    As part of the process of open sourcing the core hypervisor we are updating the site with the lgpl library sources.
    - acathrow 10y ago
      It's about time, Veertu has been using a lot of LGPL code without attribution or any visible attempts to comply with LGPL license requirements for the many components used. Hopefully you guys did a true clean room implementation of the GPL components of QEMU.

mthoms 10y ago

Okay so it says "free" on the App Store. But the App store says there is $39.99 "Premium" version available. I'm either an idiot or there is no obvious way to find out how the free version is crippled (without downloading and playing around with it). Nothing on the App store listing and nothing even on their website (!) I'm so sick of these scummy tricks. Just be upfront with your value proposition and I'll either give you my money or I won't. Don't waste my time.

api 10y ago
It's a trial that lets you install a number of OSes from pre-built images. It's $39 to unlock the ability to install from ISOs or import from Parallels, etc. But I agree. Better to just charge for the damn thing.
- oddevan 10y ago
  They have a version that is just $40 for the whole thing called "Veertu for Business". But on top of that, $40 is a lot to pay for an app sight unseen, so they wanted to have a way of offering a "free trial" or test mode for free. They are VERY upfront about what the whole price is, and it's not a hidden ongoing charge. This is the best use of in-app purchases IMO. Though to be fair, I've got an iOS app with the exact same business model, so I'm biased. :)
  - mthoms 10y ago
    >They are VERY upfront about what the whole price is You're kidding right? It doesn't mention the price anywhere on the site (but it does say "Download for free at the app store" front and center). In any other business that'd be considered a bait and switch. There is a vague mention of the premium version in a single paragraph. Elsewhere they appear to go way out of their way not to mention it: Developers can download various Linux distributions from Veertu Cloud Image Library and run VMs in few minutes, for no charge. Alternatively, they can also setup Windows VMs with ISO files. Windows 7 and higher version are supported. Users can also import existing VM images from VirtualBox, Fusion and Parallels. That's weasel wording, plain and simple. I agree though, it's better than a subscription pricing model. But to be honest I have no real quarrel with the model itself anyways - I just think they should be up front about the offer.