7 ms·

Apple’s China Problem Is That Local Phones Are Good – And Cheap

86 points by i2rohan 10y ago

seanmcdirmid 10y ago
Not reading the article yet since Bloomberg is blocked by the GFW and my VPN is down again, but isn't this what we should expect anyways? As smartphones become more mature and slow down in innovation, everyone else who are value players can more easily catch up, destroying apple's previous leading edge advantage. Basically, when/if smartphones become a commodity, Apple has to move into something else that isn't or join a race to the bottom.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Hence why they started pushing the Apple Watch, but I don't see that really taking off.
- dharma1 10y ago
  Smartphones have already become a commodity. I wonder what else?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- poopsintub 10y ago
  This is why they are moving to services, which continues to grow. They realize they can't innovate a phone every 2, even 3 years. Apple Pay, Apple Music, etc. All help counter the problem of people saying they just make the iPhone along with market saturation.
chvid 10y ago
It is just Apple's general problem isn't it? The cheaper phones are really good now. And if you are asking a premium you need to be significant better. As I see it iPhone 4 was a lot better than the competition where as the current lineup is not. Simply relying on expanding the market (selling more in China + other emerging markets) won't do the trick as they are not going to sell with their old big margins unless they are a lot better than the competition.
- Vexs 10y ago
  Yep, it's a similar problem in a lot of fronts- most of the time $200+ isn't worth a 5% increase in quality.
- simonh 10y ago
  People have been saying that about the Mac since the 1980s. Consistently high quality and premium features and services sell product. Apple doesn't need to 'rely' on selling more into China. If they end up locked out of the China market completely, they'll still do fine. As it is, they have a I've premium niche over there and will do just fine.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    And marketing. Leave a TV on between shows, and an Apple ad is likely to crop up more often than not.
    - stouset 10y ago
      This is advertising, not marketing. Marketing, specifically understanding the market for their products, is something Apple does insanely well compared to other companies.
kyriakos 10y ago
This is a problem for other manufacturers too. Medium range phones are marginally worse than flagships to the everyday user. Things like 1080p vs 2K screen make little difference to users but increase the cost substantially.
diimdeep 10y ago
As long as software quality and synergy with hardware at Apple side there is no problem, For example Android video capture still nowhere close to iOS. In phones made for Chinese market its even worse right now, but getting better.
dingleberry 10y ago
I had motorolla, asus, and more high end phones but i'm a happy $120 xiaomi redmi owner here. the problem with iphone (&ipad) is that apple forces some limitations, like say... no sd card. my sister -- who has ipad -- always have trouble moving files to non-apple devices i used to say "i don't own iphone, i can't help you", just like when someone asks for general computer problem, equivalently as saying "i don't use windows, sorry" now i don't get apple related questions because everyone i know uses android, either as primary or secondary phone.
_pmf_ 10y ago
> Apple’s China Problem Is That Local Phones Are Good – And Cheap Other local phones, since you'd be hard presses to find something un-Chinese about the iPhone.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  The OS? The software ecosystem? The App store? 99.999% of the apps? The brand? The industrial design? Just because something is manufactured somewhere, doesn't mean it originates from that place. Is there even a homegrown Chinese mobile OS? Re-skinning android doesn't count.
  - gggmaster 10y ago
    Please, no more NIH syndrome. Linux, which is built by an international community, is good enough.
    - drzaiusapelord 10y ago
      Linux is just a kernel. Android is an entire ecosystem made by an American company. I think its a stretch to call Android an international product. Its probably also a stretch to call Linux international considering its founder is an American citizen now and the vast majority of contributors are Americans and American companies. Not to mention its essentially a clone of an American proprietary product.
kraig911 10y ago
Both Apple and Samsung really need something to differentiate premium beyond color finishes and brand. Either add some premium service like some sort of concierge on call, or I dunno some premium UI interface that is definitely measurably better then there is no reason to buy a more expensive phone. App's are all starting to look the same and it doesn't matter anymore. I'm a long time iOS user because I started that way and while I love the platform it's only because of all the apps i've bought that keeps me on it. While I hate using android I'd probably learn to deal with it's nuisances for a difference of $200.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  > premium UI interface that is definitely measurably better Samsung has tried that to death. It has had the opposite effect, instead of people seeing the additional functionality as a benefit, it is criticised as clutter (and in fairness some of it does slow the device). Worse still Samsung turns around and blames their "premium features" for why their phones lose software updates sooner. And then people see more benefit in a cheap phone with virgin Android then a premium phone with supposed premium features, since updates last longer and the phones are borderline disposable.
  - JohnTHaller 10y ago
    Unfortunately, Samsung didn't wind up designing a better UI, they wound up designing a complicated one with dozens of features that no one wanted or used instead of taking the standard Android UI and adding a handful of premium features really well (like split screen multi-tasking pre-Android 7). The mess of features and objectively poor design made for an annoying UI for users along with a long, long time for Samsung to get updates out if they got them out at all. I had a Galaxy S4 and won't be buying Samsung again.
  - moosingin3space 10y ago
    As an Android user for 4 years, I've noticed the increasing quality of cheaper phones, and with the developer interest that phones like the OnePlus 3 draw, it becomes very hard to justify spending more.
dingleberry 10y ago
xiaomi phone is capable to block mobile data (and wifi) on app level. Say, gmail can access data on wifi only, chrome on mobile only and whatsapp on both mobile and wifi. It's a finer control than disabling background data. Before xiaomi, I used asus and it eats mobile data like crazy with no control other than airplane mode. bonus is that xiami has finer permission control too on app level. I can disallow whatsapp to access my contact and camera, for example. whatsapp can still function; however, it shows phone numbers instead of names in chats. so even though xiaomi is cheaper, it's more powerful to use. definitely great user experience, easily beats any, more expensive android devices i ever use: motorolla, asus, samsung, etc
- enra 10y ago
  iOS has this too for cellular: Settings > Cellular > Use Cellular data for. I used it on my recent trip, so I dont accidentally use all my roaming data.
- Grazester 10y ago
  You can do this with stock Android also http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/prevent-any-app-using-mobile-data-android/ http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/prevent-any-app-using-mobile-da...
- zwily 10y ago
  I do this all the time... on iOS. It's very useful.
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  > bonus is that xiami has finer permission control too on app level. That's a Marshmallow thing, not a Xiaomi thing.
nimos 10y ago
I think the problem is far worse for high end Android manufactures. Apple at least has a unique ecosystem that serves as a point of differentiation. What does Samsung have to differentiate itself? A logo? Apple is a luxury brand and people are willing to pay for luxury goods. If you amortize the additional cost of an iPhone over a year or two it's really not that expensive from a luxury/status good standpoint. Less expensive than visiting Starbucks 5 days a week. People need to be able to justify that cost though and with Apple they can because it is a substantively different product and integrates well into the entire Apple product line. What can premium brand Android purchasers say?
- wyldfire 10y ago
  > What does Samsung have to differentiate itself? A logo? As a practical matter, I like that models from Samsung/LG/Mot/etc have a large installed base of users (vs no-name or lower tier Android manufacturers). I think a corollary to Linus' Law should be "Given enough users, all bugs are easily discovered." If there were a low-end brand of Android phones that had a large amount of share, I'd probably consider them instead. (or is there one already?)
  - qznc 10y ago
    I'm currently looking for a new smartphone. Requirements: Cyanogen Mod support, changeable battery, close to 200€, at least 2GB RAM. Only the Samsung Galaxy S4 seems to qualify.
    - pickettd 10y ago
      I got a LG G3 (3GB RAM model) earlier this year and it meets those requirements. I've really enjoyed using it so far.
      - qznc 10y ago
        Thanks for the suggestion. 3GB RAM is great.
legulere 10y ago
How do the huawei P9 and oppo R9 have almost double the battery capacity than the iPhone 6s, when they're around the same weight?
Grazester 10y ago
I bought a Huawei(P8 Lite) for a girlfriend of mine and we both fell in love with the phone. She use to make fun of my Nexus 6 as a result and called it a tablet. Chinese companies are getting it right where it comes to affordable phones
- tluyben2 10y ago
  I got a P8 Max and I'm not looking back. Great phablet for a very good price. Can't beat that battery life.
Nokinside 10y ago
Good documentary: Shenzhen: The Silicon Valley of Hardware (Full Documentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
raverbashing 10y ago
Something that the Chinese market seems to like also are big phones See models from Xiaomi, or even the Asus ones, it seems the bigger the better. I already dislike how big my Moto G3 is, but it seems they're fine with it
- rogerbinns 10y ago
  I've heard pundits say the reason for bigger phones popularity is amongst people who don't have tablets and PCs as well. Essentially if you have to pick one size of screen for all your needs, then something a bit larger is a good idea.
  - simonh 10y ago
    I've found I definitely use my iPad less now I have a 5.5" iPhone. Is still wouldn't be without an iPad, I love it, but for many tasks I used to switch to the iPad for, now the larger phone is fine.
- sdegutis 10y ago
  You know how in parodies 15 years ago, they made fun of how cell phones were getting smaller and smaller? They stopped that trend about 5 or 6 years ago and started getting bigger and bigger. I only looked on from the outside as an observer, since I don't have the money to throw away on replacing my phone ever 2 years like everyone else seems to. But now, with the iPhone SE, they're reversing that trend again. It reminds me of that scene in Wall-E, where they say "red is the new blue" on all the screens, and suddenly everyone presses the button to change all their personal possessions (including clothing) to blue! I hate the word sheeple, I really do, but seriously guys, what the hell? It's a fucking phone.
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    the iPhone SE not existing at the time was the reason I went with Android (I could have gone with an iPhone 5 but I didn't want a past model - and price was a factor as well) I guess it's not much a reversal of the trend rather as a "return to normal" Pockets and hands are still the same size as always
iamleppert 10y ago
In another 10 years the iPhone will be about as exciting as a refrigerator, even in the US. Innovation has slowed greatly on the phone product such that they need to start focusing more and more on vendor lock-in to maintain their monopoly.
tnuoccapass 10y ago
I used a china phone and it was a way better phone than any american phone i ever used, and i couldn't even use it very good because it was in CHINESE.
xlayn 10y ago
Change phrasing and therefore idea: Apple products premium price doesn't represent, have, offer or convey any benefit to China buyers.

86 points by i2rohan 10y ago

Not reading the article yet since Bloomberg is blocked by the GFW and my VPN is down again, but isn't this what we should expect anyways? As smartphones become more mature and slow down in innovation, everyone else who are value players can more easily catch up, destroying apple's previous leading edge advantage. Basically, when/if smartphones become a commodity, Apple has to move into something else that isn't or join a race to the bottom.

pjmlp 10y ago
Hence why they started pushing the Apple Watch, but I don't see that really taking off.
dharma1 10y ago
Smartphones have already become a commodity. I wonder what else?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
poopsintub 10y ago
This is why they are moving to services, which continues to grow. They realize they can't innovate a phone every 2, even 3 years. Apple Pay, Apple Music, etc. All help counter the problem of people saying they just make the iPhone along with market saturation.

chvid 10y ago

It is just Apple's general problem isn't it? The cheaper phones are really good now. And if you are asking a premium you need to be significant better. As I see it iPhone 4 was a lot better than the competition where as the current lineup is not. Simply relying on expanding the market (selling more in China + other emerging markets) won't do the trick as they are not going to sell with their old big margins unless they are a lot better than the competition.

Vexs 10y ago
Yep, it's a similar problem in a lot of fronts- most of the time $200+ isn't worth a 5% increase in quality.
simonh 10y ago
People have been saying that about the Mac since the 1980s. Consistently high quality and premium features and services sell product. Apple doesn't need to 'rely' on selling more into China. If they end up locked out of the China market completely, they'll still do fine. As it is, they have a I've premium niche over there and will do just fine.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  And marketing. Leave a TV on between shows, and an Apple ad is likely to crop up more often than not.
  - stouset 10y ago
    This is advertising, not marketing. Marketing, specifically understanding the market for their products, is something Apple does insanely well compared to other companies.

kyriakos 10y ago

This is a problem for other manufacturers too. Medium range phones are marginally worse than flagships to the everyday user. Things like 1080p vs 2K screen make little difference to users but increase the cost substantially.

diimdeep 10y ago

As long as software quality and synergy with hardware at Apple side there is no problem, For example Android video capture still nowhere close to iOS. In phones made for Chinese market its even worse right now, but getting better.

dingleberry 10y ago

I had motorolla, asus, and more high end phones but i'm a happy $120 xiaomi redmi owner here. the problem with iphone (&ipad) is that apple forces some limitations, like say... no sd card. my sister -- who has ipad -- always have trouble moving files to non-apple devices i used to say "i don't own iphone, i can't help you", just like when someone asks for general computer problem, equivalently as saying "i don't use windows, sorry" now i don't get apple related questions because everyone i know uses android, either as primary or secondary phone.

_pmf_ 10y ago

> Apple’s China Problem Is That Local Phones Are Good – And Cheap Other local phones, since you'd be hard presses to find something un-Chinese about the iPhone.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago
The OS? The software ecosystem? The App store? 99.999% of the apps? The brand? The industrial design? Just because something is manufactured somewhere, doesn't mean it originates from that place. Is there even a homegrown Chinese mobile OS? Re-skinning android doesn't count.
- gggmaster 10y ago
  Please, no more NIH syndrome. Linux, which is built by an international community, is good enough.
  - drzaiusapelord 10y ago
    Linux is just a kernel. Android is an entire ecosystem made by an American company. I think its a stretch to call Android an international product. Its probably also a stretch to call Linux international considering its founder is an American citizen now and the vast majority of contributors are Americans and American companies. Not to mention its essentially a clone of an American proprietary product.

kraig911 10y ago

Both Apple and Samsung really need something to differentiate premium beyond color finishes and brand. Either add some premium service like some sort of concierge on call, or I dunno some premium UI interface that is definitely measurably better then there is no reason to buy a more expensive phone. App's are all starting to look the same and it doesn't matter anymore. I'm a long time iOS user because I started that way and while I love the platform it's only because of all the apps i've bought that keeps me on it. While I hate using android I'd probably learn to deal with it's nuisances for a difference of $200.

Someone1234 10y ago
> premium UI interface that is definitely measurably better Samsung has tried that to death. It has had the opposite effect, instead of people seeing the additional functionality as a benefit, it is criticised as clutter (and in fairness some of it does slow the device). Worse still Samsung turns around and blames their "premium features" for why their phones lose software updates sooner. And then people see more benefit in a cheap phone with virgin Android then a premium phone with supposed premium features, since updates last longer and the phones are borderline disposable.
- JohnTHaller 10y ago
  Unfortunately, Samsung didn't wind up designing a better UI, they wound up designing a complicated one with dozens of features that no one wanted or used instead of taking the standard Android UI and adding a handful of premium features really well (like split screen multi-tasking pre-Android 7). The mess of features and objectively poor design made for an annoying UI for users along with a long, long time for Samsung to get updates out if they got them out at all. I had a Galaxy S4 and won't be buying Samsung again.
- moosingin3space 10y ago
  As an Android user for 4 years, I've noticed the increasing quality of cheaper phones, and with the developer interest that phones like the OnePlus 3 draw, it becomes very hard to justify spending more.

dingleberry 10y ago

xiaomi phone is capable to block mobile data (and wifi) on app level. Say, gmail can access data on wifi only, chrome on mobile only and whatsapp on both mobile and wifi. It's a finer control than disabling background data. Before xiaomi, I used asus and it eats mobile data like crazy with no control other than airplane mode. bonus is that xiami has finer permission control too on app level. I can disallow whatsapp to access my contact and camera, for example. whatsapp can still function; however, it shows phone numbers instead of names in chats. so even though xiaomi is cheaper, it's more powerful to use. definitely great user experience, easily beats any, more expensive android devices i ever use: motorolla, asus, samsung, etc

enra 10y ago
iOS has this too for cellular: Settings > Cellular > Use Cellular data for. I used it on my recent trip, so I dont accidentally use all my roaming data.
Grazester 10y ago
You can do this with stock Android also http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/prevent-any-app-using-mobile-data-android/ http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/prevent-any-app-using-mobile-da...
zwily 10y ago
I do this all the time... on iOS. It's very useful.
Nullabillity 10y ago
> bonus is that xiami has finer permission control too on app level. That's a Marshmallow thing, not a Xiaomi thing.

nimos 10y ago

I think the problem is far worse for high end Android manufactures. Apple at least has a unique ecosystem that serves as a point of differentiation. What does Samsung have to differentiate itself? A logo? Apple is a luxury brand and people are willing to pay for luxury goods. If you amortize the additional cost of an iPhone over a year or two it's really not that expensive from a luxury/status good standpoint. Less expensive than visiting Starbucks 5 days a week. People need to be able to justify that cost though and with Apple they can because it is a substantively different product and integrates well into the entire Apple product line. What can premium brand Android purchasers say?

wyldfire 10y ago
> What does Samsung have to differentiate itself? A logo? As a practical matter, I like that models from Samsung/LG/Mot/etc have a large installed base of users (vs no-name or lower tier Android manufacturers). I think a corollary to Linus' Law should be "Given enough users, all bugs are easily discovered." If there were a low-end brand of Android phones that had a large amount of share, I'd probably consider them instead. (or is there one already?)
- qznc 10y ago
  I'm currently looking for a new smartphone. Requirements: Cyanogen Mod support, changeable battery, close to 200€, at least 2GB RAM. Only the Samsung Galaxy S4 seems to qualify.
  - pickettd 10y ago
    I got a LG G3 (3GB RAM model) earlier this year and it meets those requirements. I've really enjoyed using it so far.
    - qznc 10y ago
      Thanks for the suggestion. 3GB RAM is great.

legulere 10y ago

How do the huawei P9 and oppo R9 have almost double the battery capacity than the iPhone 6s, when they're around the same weight?

Grazester 10y ago

I bought a Huawei(P8 Lite) for a girlfriend of mine and we both fell in love with the phone. She use to make fun of my Nexus 6 as a result and called it a tablet. Chinese companies are getting it right where it comes to affordable phones

tluyben2 10y ago
I got a P8 Max and I'm not looking back. Great phablet for a very good price. Can't beat that battery life.

Nokinside 10y ago

Good documentary: Shenzhen: The Silicon Valley of Hardware (Full Documentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY

raverbashing 10y ago

Something that the Chinese market seems to like also are big phones See models from Xiaomi, or even the Asus ones, it seems the bigger the better. I already dislike how big my Moto G3 is, but it seems they're fine with it

rogerbinns 10y ago
I've heard pundits say the reason for bigger phones popularity is amongst people who don't have tablets and PCs as well. Essentially if you have to pick one size of screen for all your needs, then something a bit larger is a good idea.
- simonh 10y ago
  I've found I definitely use my iPad less now I have a 5.5" iPhone. Is still wouldn't be without an iPad, I love it, but for many tasks I used to switch to the iPad for, now the larger phone is fine.
sdegutis 10y ago
You know how in parodies 15 years ago, they made fun of how cell phones were getting smaller and smaller? They stopped that trend about 5 or 6 years ago and started getting bigger and bigger. I only looked on from the outside as an observer, since I don't have the money to throw away on replacing my phone ever 2 years like everyone else seems to. But now, with the iPhone SE, they're reversing that trend again. It reminds me of that scene in Wall-E, where they say "red is the new blue" on all the screens, and suddenly everyone presses the button to change all their personal possessions (including clothing) to blue! I hate the word sheeple, I really do, but seriously guys, what the hell? It's a fucking phone.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  the iPhone SE not existing at the time was the reason I went with Android (I could have gone with an iPhone 5 but I didn't want a past model - and price was a factor as well) I guess it's not much a reversal of the trend rather as a "return to normal" Pockets and hands are still the same size as always

iamleppert 10y ago

In another 10 years the iPhone will be about as exciting as a refrigerator, even in the US. Innovation has slowed greatly on the phone product such that they need to start focusing more and more on vendor lock-in to maintain their monopoly.

tnuoccapass 10y ago

I used a china phone and it was a way better phone than any american phone i ever used, and i couldn't even use it very good because it was in CHINESE.

xlayn 10y ago

Change phrasing and therefore idea: Apple products premium price doesn't represent, have, offer or convey any benefit to China buyers.