13 ms·

We have an epidemic of bad posture

156 points by pieterhg 10y ago

schmichael 10y ago
People aren't static. Many of us fidget quite a lot which does wonders for preventing RSI! I once had an ergonomics consultant confirm that despite my ridiculously poor posture, my constant fidgeting did wonders for preventing RSI and other forms of strain that occur when you hold a single position for too long. (Also I barely touch a mouse which probably helps.)
- GoToRO 10y ago
  I did that too. Then I stopped because I saw it as a.. defect? And then I had to pick it up again :) It gives me some "exercise" while sitting. All the time when I really have to think hard I do it more. For sure there is a link there. Brain needs more blood, muscles deliver it?
melling 10y ago
He's still not using an ergonomic keyboard. Typical keyboards require the user to press the key to the bottom to activate it, like pushing your finger into the desk. A mechanical keyboard switch activates halfway from the bottom, reducing the extra stress on your fingers. Here's a collection of other RSI stories, along with other ergonomic information: https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes
- rhinoceraptor 10y ago
  I use an ergodox infinity, the main things I like about it are the columnar layout (q->a->z are in a straight line), and I can use it at varying widths and angles. I mostly use it at about shoulder width, angled slightly outwards. I still use QWERTY but it's not been a problem.
- WalterSear 10y ago
  Fwiw, I was disabled for 8 years with RSI, and the best keyboard I've found, for me, is the Apple one displayed in this article. It has the lightest touch of any keyboard I've used except for actual touchpad style ergonomic keyboards, which can be worse, since they can be difficult to use and require static pressure - like the keyboard of the screen of a tablet. Not to mention being unobtainable.
  - melling 10y ago
    There are a lot of switches. Reddit has a great guide: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/switch_guides https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/switch_gui... There's a table with activation forces: MX Red Linear 45cN MX Black Linear 60cN MX Dark Grey Linear 80cN MX Brown
- wry_discontent 10y ago
  I have a Kinesis Advantage keyboard, and it's awesome. I can use a million emacs key chords all day and it's painless for my pinkies.
  - jff 10y ago
    The Kinesis Advantage has really helped me, along with a Kensington Expert Mouse (which is actually a trackball). I used to get pains all the way up my right arm and through both wrists, but now worst case is a slightly tired hand.
    - melling 10y ago
      The Kinesis Advantage has MX Cherry Brown switches. It would be great to understand what makes this keyboard effective. How does an Ergodox compare, for instance? I've also got a Github page dedicated to ergonomic keyboards: https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/keyboards.org https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/keyboa...
      - joesmo 10y ago
        The lf version comes with red mx switches. It's not just the keys though, as the position of the keys helps immensely.
- npsimons 10y ago
  > Typical keyboards require the user to press the key to the bottom to activate it For all I don't like about Apple, their aluminum keyboards are what I prefer and use, precisely for the reasons stated in the article, and to counter your claim, the Apple aluminum keyboard travel is very short, so it bottoms out much quicker and still gives a feel like a mechanical keyboard.
  - melling 10y ago
    My claim was that you don't want to hit the bottom. If the bottom is "very short", isn't that worse? I don't know the numbers for Apple's keyboards? You activate after about 2mm on a typical mechanical keyboard. You hit bottom around 4mm, which of course, you don't want to do.
- stubish 10y ago
  Oh, he has my key feature for an ergonomic keyboard (and he forgot to mention it). It doesn't have a keypad. This alone helps lots of shoulder issues by reducing horizontal travel switching to the mouse.
runin2k1 10y ago
All the ergo adjustments in the world won't help you if you sit in one position all day long with one small set of muscles engaged while the rest are disengaged and slowly atrophying. The best solution is touched on in the article, but it can't be overstated that actual exercise is the best preventative.
- cylinder 10y ago
  Easiest solution for an office worker is to just run up and own the stairwell a few times a day. I don't know how so many people just sit still all day, with a big lunch too, then wonder why they feel tired in the afternoons. Their only solution seems to be more garbage Keurig coffee!
  - kjsthree 10y ago
    One of the most frustrating things about working in New York is the ample amount of potential stairs to climb with almost every door locked from the stairwell.
    - cylinder 10y ago
      Hah, same issue in my building in NYC.
    - mikestew 10y ago
      The epidemic has long since spread to the west coast. The Seattle building I currently work in has some limited, well-defined accessible stairwells, but AFAICT the majority are one-way, emergency-only. I've worked in buildings as you describe: one-way, down-only. Sucks when you don't know this yet, think you'll take the stairs to the fourth floor only to discover that you need to climb all the way to the bottom then take an elevator up. Security? Yeah, maybe, but that's bare-minimum-to-meet-the-spec lazy security.
      - stevenwiles 10y ago
        did "as far as i can tell" really need an acronym?
sjustinas 10y ago
Does anyone have an idea why, according to the author, a mouse being wireless is so essential?
- WalterSear 10y ago
  IMHO, it's because you can put it where you want, such as on a side table at arm height, rather than where the cable lets you.
- dangerlibrary 10y ago
  I can't think of any reason why a wireless mouse would have an ergonomic benefit over a wired one. They are the same size, shape, and orientation, and any decrease in drag from the lack of a cord is more than offset by the increased weight of the batteries.
  - wcarss 10y ago
    When I'm reading a web page or code, I occasionally stand or sit with my mouse in my hand and my arm relaxed at my side, or across my chest. It changes the extension of my arm considerably and sometimes makes things much more comfortable.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Does anyone have an idea why, according to the author, a mouse being wireless is so essential? I'm not sure why according to the author, but the advantages I can think of are: (1) It allows more free repositioning to address ergonomic issues, and (2) While this doesn't necessarily happen all the time, lots of times wired mice end up with the wires running in paths where they ocassionally provide more resistance to certain movements, which seems likely to have negative ergonomic consequences over time.
- npsimons 10y ago
  Yeah, it bothered me that the author didn't even give a rationale for it, just mentioned it and brushed it aside, much like his other recommendations that are "industry standard." I agree with the main point of the article, and good solutions are touched upon lightly, but it feels really shallow and very much single anecdote.
NDizzle 10y ago
My solution is to use a lap desk. I have what is called an ePad which is going on 6 years old. I should probably replace it. I limit my desk time to 3 hours a day.
gadders 10y ago
On top of the exercises recommended in the article, I would also suggest "Band Pull-Aparts". These help undo some of the posture issues from working at a desk. This is a good instructional video on them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd9VoT1BPAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd9VoT1BPAY
overcast 10y ago
I had the Herman Miller Aeron chair for a decade, and I recently upgraded to the Embody from them. It's leagues better in the ergonomic department. So comfortable, and no back issues sitting for extremely long periods of time.
jholloway7 10y ago
Lifting weights can help, but it can also cause more harm when your routine isn't properly balanced. Doing only bench press and military press lifts for upper body is going to be a chest/tricep push heavy routine. If you're not balancing these pushes with pulls (chinups, pullups, rows, etc), it can promote issues like rolled shoulders, forward neck, weak traps, weak rhomboids or similar postural issues to those the author is trying to avoid in the first place. In fact, many lifters will add more pulls than pushes, because our day-to-day activities tend to be more push-oriented. The point is, if you're going to lift, pick a beginner's routine designed by someone who knows what they're doing that has push/pull balance programmed in from the outset. Don't just pick a couple lifts that you enjoy and throw out the rest.
- ZeroFries 10y ago
  Yep, getting a strong back (from pull type movements, as well as squats and deadlifts) has improved my posture more than anything else. Another to look into is weak/mis-firing glutes (from sitting all the time). Apparently planks (of a certain kind where you squeeze your glutes as well) help for that. http://www.romphysicaltherapy.ie/best-exercises-to-strengthen-and-stabilise-the-glute-muscles/ http://www.romphysicaltherapy.ie/best-exercises-to-strengthe...
  - jholloway7 10y ago
    Totally agree!
- jdpage 10y ago
  Do you have any specific beginner's routines you'd recommend? I was doing 5x5, which has pulls in the form of barbell rows and deadlifts; I don't know if that's sufficient.
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    You can always supplement the 5x5 routine with 3x8-10 (typically) accessory exercises with dumbbells. In some cases dumbbells will give you a better range of motion and help develop smaller muscles. Another common addition to 5x5 I've seen is adding a dedicated core day (weighted ab crunches, hanging leg raises, planks) Core is the 2nd most important part of doing pull exercises (after back)
tom_wilde 10y ago
fyi: a vertical mouse can help with lower arm issues. I swap between this and a normal one and simply varying the motion helped with my issues....
- gglitch 10y ago
  Thank you for this. I didn't even know vertical mice exist, but I've often remarked to myself how strange it feels to rotate my lower arm 45-90° to use the mouse. Purchased.
dmansen 10y ago
Pete Egoscue's book "Pain Free" is IMO, the best book for understanding correct posture and how to achieve it. https://www.amazon.com/Pain-Free-Revolutionary-Stopping-Chronic/dp/0553379887/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Pain-Free-Revolutionary-Stopping-Chro...
henrik_w 10y ago
I had pretty bad RSI some years ago, to the point where I thought I wouldn't be able to program anymore. However, I got through it, and I don't have any pains today. The key thing for me was starting to use a break program on my computer. Every 5 minutes I take a 10 seconds micro-break (let go of the mouse and keyboard). Every 45 minutes I take a 5 minute stretching break, and do 3 or 4 stretches. That, together with a split keyboard (Goldtouch) and a pen-shaped mouse called Penclic. Both those are great for me. Almost all regular keyboards are terrible from an ergonomic standpoint (especially Apple's), not to mention laptop keyboards. More details here: https://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/ https://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/
- peteretep 10y ago
  Forced break programs saved my wrists. I use AntiRSI on the Mac and WorkRave on anything else. Rocking a GoldTouch split foldable keyboard, Apple Trackpad, and the Roost that levels mentioned in his post
- beachstartup 10y ago
  https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gripmaster https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3... try this too.
- dvtv75 10y ago
  I seem to recall hearing from my doctor that the micropause software simply made some people freeze up and wait, making it worse. She suggested that it would just be better to get up and do something completely different for a time. I found that, while working at home, hanging out laundry worked wonders. I've had a lot of people deride me and laugh at me for that single phrase, but not one of them suffered the pain of RSI. They probably wouldn't laugh so readily if they couldn't feed themselves - or open a locked door - for several months.
josephjrobison 10y ago
100% agree with this article - I also don't know how more people aren't in the chiropractor's office weekly. I went through a particularly intense period of working on my laptop and it resulted in a neck spasm so sever it was like daggers trying to move my neck. The doctor prescribed Vicodin it was that bad. But only when I went in for a series of chiropractic sessions did I improve my neck at the source. Thankfully now I'm more aware of just how important it is to not crane the neck, and I catch myself if I do it for more than 15 minutes at a time. It definitely is becoming an epidemic, and there needs to be a lot more public awareness around this. Not everyone can afford multiple chiro sessions a week for weeks at a time to correct something preventable!
- yodsanklai 10y ago
  > I also don't know how more people aren't in the chiropractor's office weekly Maybe because there are no evidence that it's effective. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/ https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/
  - gooseus 10y ago
    Chiropractors don't fall just into "straights" and "mixers", there are entire schools which focus on evidence-based biomechanic adjustments and others that get way more woo-woo about it with energy healing and whatnot. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/science-based-chiropractic-an-oxymoron/ https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/science-based-chiroprac... That guy spent years being a chiropractor and while he acknowledges that the postulates of vertebral subluxation theory is implausible, he was also able to spend years helping people with spinal manipulations working as a chiropractor. It was only until recently that physical therapists began doing adjustments which began competing with chiropractics Like with anything, there are good and bad actors and even a bad actor may help people even if their justification for why something is helping is fundamentally flawed. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    - dpark 10y ago
      > That guy spent years being a chiropractor and while he acknowledges that the postulates of vertebral subluxation theory is implausible, he was also able to spend years helping people with spinal manipulations working as a chiropractor. Did he help them or did he deliver placebos? "Most cases of back pain are self limiting, and spinal manipulation is not often more effective than other physical treatment modalities in affecting the final outcome." > Like with anything, there are good and bad actors and even a bad actor may help people even if their justification for why something is helping is fundamentally flawed. Is there actual science supporting the claims? Not the mechanism claims, which are clearly bullshit. Is there even any support in the science for the claims of effectiveness?
ravenstine 10y ago
How often do you find that a person with a low body-fat ratio with negative effects caused by bad posture? The people who I've seen with obvious problems caused by poor posture, like a hump or sore back or joints, are usually moderately to highly overweight. Kind of like how women with large breasts can have problems with soreness or neck humps. I suspect that it's not so much about good posture as it is about having a variety of postures throughout the day and not having bodyweight stressing one's joints. Granted, I have no scientific evidence for this. It's just from my own observations(and my own experience of being a former fat guy).
- npsimons 10y ago
  I'll second this; after losing 50lbs, many health issues just went away. Adding in the the strength training (Rippetoe's SS:BBT), has just made me feel that much better.
- surrealvortex 10y ago
  To supply a counter-point, I'm underweight, and I had sore wrists and lower back pain before I made my workspace ergonomic.
- mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
  Skinny dude here who has had serious RSI/postural problems. Same for my boss. None of the research I did mentioned bodyweight as a cause for RSI.
- rafaelm 10y ago
  My wife weights 43kg and she has pretty bad posture. She is developing a hunch at 35! In my limited knowledge, its because of weak muscles all over. She's been skinny all her life. I'm looking in to what exercises she can do to get better.
  - mendelsd 10y ago
    It's worth checking her thyroid function: "Some studies have related hypothyroidism to muscle dysfunction... Furthermore, studies ... demonstrated that thyroid hormone action on skeletal muscles affects mainly type-I muscle fibers, which promote slow contractions and are most prevalent in the postural muscles recruited during prolonged effort" [1] Also, not sure where you are in the world but your doctor telling you your thyroid hormone levels are ok unfortunately may not necessarily mean they are ok... There is a controversy about reference ranges amongst experts [2], and I think it's wise to pay attention to that. [1] http://www.scielo.br/pdf/abc/v87n3/en_a33v87n3.pdf http://www.scielo.br/pdf/abc/v87n3/en_a33v87n3.pdf [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16148345 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16148345
frankus 10y ago
It's probably not great for my wrists, but I particularly like the location of the built-in trackpad on my MacBook. So instead of raising the laptop in a stand and getting an external keyboard and mouse, I use an external display (24" 4K) at an ergonomic height/distance and keep the built-in monitor as a secondary screen (for example, running the iOS simulator on the MacBook screen and Xcode full screen on the external display). I arrange the screens so the built-in display is below the external one (i.e. the same arrangement as they are physically) and keep my dock on the left of the main display.
zeveb 10y ago
> Make sure [the mouse is] wireless. I disagree there — wireless mice & keyboards are terribly insecure. Other than that, seems like some good advice here.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Ergonomics and security are different concerns; the best mechanism for addressing one, considered on its own, may be suboptimal from the perspective of the other.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    True enough, but security is a sine qua non: a system must be sufficiently secure before one even begins to consider ergonomics or anything else.
- mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
  I've found wired mice to be lighter. wireless can be heavy , depending on what kind of battery is used.
  - redsparrow 10y ago
    When I last used wireless mice they had two AA batteries and I found it a great relief to go back to a much lighter wired mouse. It hadn't occurred to me that newer battery tech might be lighter. Maybe I should take another look at wireless mice. EDIT: The Logitech MX Master (a wireless mouse) weighs 145g including battery, and the M500 (corded) weighs 144g. That probably includes the cord, so the in-hand weight might be a little lower, but they're certainly close. Neato.
300bps 10y ago
About eleven years ago I started having crippling RSI in my hands and wrists. I fit the typical patient... Type all day sitting at a desk. Posted about it on Slashdot and someone told me to look up TMS. Changed my life. After years of problems it completely went away in weeks. After years of searching for ergonomic solutions it was bizarre that following TMS treatment cured it in weeks and now I don't do anything ergonomic and I have had no problems for over a decade. More info... http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vsR4wydiIBI http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vsR4wydiIBI
- felixpl 10y ago
  Did you do specific exercises, or just read and re-read Sarno's books to make the concept stick?
freshfey 10y ago
The article is a great starting point, but exercise in itself is not enough. If you've worked for multiple years in a (seated) office setting, chances are you have tight muscles. Muscle tissue then gets glued together and stuff like forward rolled shoulders happens. Now you go to a physical therapist with your neck or shoulder pain and he/she recommends you physical therapy. The problem is just, the area is too tight to react to the right kind of stimulus, so the trick is to first massage the area and then fix it with the right exercises. Simple tools like a lacrosse ball (5 bucks) or a foam roller (10-20ish bucks) can work wonders IF used regularly and in the right fashion. I've written about one part the issue here, called "text neck" https://bitehype.com/text-neck/ https://bitehype.com/text-neck/ - I've also compiled some of these lessons into a free email course, where I dive into the topic a bit deeper: https://www.dailybitsof.com/courses/fix-your-posture https://www.dailybitsof.com/courses/fix-your-posture I hope that helps - open to any questions in that area (my expertise comes from years of injury/self experimentation, bunch of interviews with doctors, physical therapists and massage therapists as well as visits to sports clinics. Oh and of course interest).
- trhway 10y ago
  >If you've worked for multiple years in a (seated) office setting and an year ago, after more than 2 decades (not counting university and before) of sitting i started to work standing. Wonderful. Besides posture and better breathing position, gone away some issues that started to appear during recent years due to bad circulation when sitting.
hackaflocka 10y ago
I haven't read all the other comments so not sure if this has been mentioned already. The modern concepts of posture may be wrong. I have a curved butt to shoulder area. It makes me look somewhat duck like. However, I never have any back aches etc. I know of people who are straight as a plank, and complain constantly of aches and pains. This TED talk will explain why curved is better than straight: https://youtu.be/k1luKAS_Xcg?t=224 https://youtu.be/k1luKAS_Xcg?t=224
fabiogo 10y ago
Walking a few minutes every hour is a simple way to clear your head, be more productive, and save your posture.
- BeautifulData 10y ago
  By all means do that, but in the long run it is not enough. 8 hours of sitting isn't countered by walking for 1 hour. There are many good exercises you can do with little to no equipment, the recommended routine of /r/bodyweightfitness is a good place to start https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommended_routine https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommend...
joesmo 10y ago
I disagree with his suggestions about keyboards and mice completely. It's not that simple. What helps the author might hurt someone else. I personally can't use a mouse or flat keyboard. Making these suggestions categorical destroys an otherwise good article.
- heisenbit 10y ago
  Same here. While the author has a point about laptops as a workspace he fails to distinguish between generally accepted best practices and his personal opinion. I've yet to see any totally flat keyboard to be recommended as ergonomic.
GoToRO 10y ago
Good tips. I may add: 1. A second mouse for my other hand. Pick a corporate mouse because those are symmetric. Use it to browse the web when you are not really working. 2. A desk with a dull (chamfer) edge.
Animats 10y ago
This is a consequence of laptop usage. You should have your screen at eye height, sit in a chair with arms, and have wrist support. Before laptops took over, there was a lot of concern about keyboard ergonomics. That seems to have disappeared. You can't even get the Microsoft Natural Keyboard any more.
- zb 10y ago
  Wat. https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboards/natural-ergonomic-keyboard-4000/b2m-00012 https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar...
  - Animats 10y ago
    It's "out of stock" for business, but not for individuals? It looks like Microsoft brought this back as a new model in black with fake chrome, unlike the old beige model. (Still has the crappy spacebar mechanism, though; the spacebar is huge but has to be pushed near its center.)
- vmarsy 10y ago
  >You can't even get the Microsoft Natural Keyboard any more. Wow, are they Out of stock temporarily or permanently? https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Natural-Ergonomic-Keyboard-4000-for-Business/productID.278184200 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Natural... EDIT: They still offer plenty of Ergonomic keyboards, but only wireless one it seems. (For instance: https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Wireless-Comfort-Desktop-5050/productID.326222500 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Wireles... )
  - to3m 10y ago
    You've got 2 options at the moment I think: Cheap MS Natural 4000: https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboards/natural-ergonomic-keyboard-4000/b2m-00012 https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar... (rubber domes - actually I think the space bar is OK, but tends to be stiff until it's had a couple of weeks of use) More expensive MS Sculpt Ergonomic: https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboards/sculpt-ergonomic-desktop/l5v-00001 https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar... (scissor switches + clicky buttons for F keys and Esc) Both are OK, I'd say. The 4000 has slightly nasty keyswitches, but in exchange it's got all the keys in traditional places. The Sculpt is nicer to type on, if you don't mind that sort of thing, but the non-standard keyboard layout leaves something to be desired. (One note of caution: I've had 5 of the MS 4000s now, and the newest one, bought a month ago, has a much squishier, quieter key action - presumably a new recipe with improved cost-effectiveness. I don't think this is any worse than what was there already, but some might disagree...)
venning 10y ago
RSI stands for "repetitive strain injury": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury (for those of us who didn't just know this)
deleted 10y ago
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andrewaylett 10y ago
The very biggest thing for me -- having started suffering from wrist pain about ten years ago -- was switching from QWERTY to Dvorak for typing. It was quite a lot of work, but the wrist pain completely disappeared and hasn't been back.
Mithaldu 10y ago
For people looking for a cheaper option than the roost stand, i can strongly recommend book stands like this: https://www.amazon.de/gp/customer-reviews/R1MVD7C55Q9ZKD/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0012E0S00 https://www.amazon.de/gp/customer-reviews/R1MVD7C55Q9ZKD/ref... It can fit literally any machine, won't break from a puny laptop under any circumstance, folds very flat so fits in most bags, and can bring the screen really high.
ryanmarsh 10y ago
I have two slipped disks, sciatica, piriformis syndrome and I'm 6'3. Most work spaces are pure torture for me without my protocol: * Yoga or daily stretching * Walking (properly) * Epidural steroid injections every six months (for the disks) What would be better (for people who don't want to end up like me): A) Don't do dumb shit with your body (obvi) B) If facilities departments would stop buying torture devices just cuz that's what everyone's used to sitting in
JustUhThought 10y ago
Yoga!!! Don't knock it till you've tried it.
magicalpony 10y ago
An epidemic you say, doctor? Mostly I liked how you reconciled your personal pains with your expert domain knowledge about human biomechanics and health to provide medical advice, even providing Googled images that unequivocally demonstrate your claim and truly the extent of this epidemic. Sorry your arms hurt.
NerdBuddha 10y ago
Have someone tried BetterBack? I purchased mine but still have not received it.
artur_makly 10y ago
#1 PSA. I wonder what happens to all those bearded 20+year vets after all that neck carnage..scary.. so i just built one of these: http://www.latesthandmade.com/pvc-laptop-stand-diy-ideas/ http://www.latesthandmade.com/pvc-laptop-stand-diy-ideas/ And now EVERYONE in the office wants one. Best investment of the year. +Also fun to paint/customize them. and YOGA YOGA YOGA!
kapauldo 10y ago
This is a great write-up. Thanks for sharing.

156 points by pieterhg 10y ago

People aren't static. Many of us fidget quite a lot which does wonders for preventing RSI! I once had an ergonomics consultant confirm that despite my ridiculously poor posture, my constant fidgeting did wonders for preventing RSI and other forms of strain that occur when you hold a single position for too long. (Also I barely touch a mouse which probably helps.)

GoToRO 10y ago
I did that too. Then I stopped because I saw it as a.. defect? And then I had to pick it up again :) It gives me some "exercise" while sitting. All the time when I really have to think hard I do it more. For sure there is a link there. Brain needs more blood, muscles deliver it?

melling 10y ago

He's still not using an ergonomic keyboard. Typical keyboards require the user to press the key to the bottom to activate it, like pushing your finger into the desk. A mechanical keyboard switch activates halfway from the bottom, reducing the extra stress on your fingers. Here's a collection of other RSI stories, along with other ergonomic information: https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes

rhinoceraptor 10y ago
I use an ergodox infinity, the main things I like about it are the columnar layout (q->a->z are in a straight line), and I can use it at varying widths and angles. I mostly use it at about shoulder width, angled slightly outwards. I still use QWERTY but it's not been a problem.
WalterSear 10y ago
Fwiw, I was disabled for 8 years with RSI, and the best keyboard I've found, for me, is the Apple one displayed in this article. It has the lightest touch of any keyboard I've used except for actual touchpad style ergonomic keyboards, which can be worse, since they can be difficult to use and require static pressure - like the keyboard of the screen of a tablet. Not to mention being unobtainable.
- melling 10y ago
  There are a lot of switches. Reddit has a great guide: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/switch_guides https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/switch_gui... There's a table with activation forces: MX Red Linear 45cN MX Black Linear 60cN MX Dark Grey Linear 80cN MX Brown
wry_discontent 10y ago
I have a Kinesis Advantage keyboard, and it's awesome. I can use a million emacs key chords all day and it's painless for my pinkies.
- jff 10y ago
  The Kinesis Advantage has really helped me, along with a Kensington Expert Mouse (which is actually a trackball). I used to get pains all the way up my right arm and through both wrists, but now worst case is a slightly tired hand.
  - melling 10y ago
    The Kinesis Advantage has MX Cherry Brown switches. It would be great to understand what makes this keyboard effective. How does an Ergodox compare, for instance? I've also got a Github page dedicated to ergonomic keyboards: https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/keyboards.org https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/keyboa...
    - joesmo 10y ago
      The lf version comes with red mx switches. It's not just the keys though, as the position of the keys helps immensely.
npsimons 10y ago
> Typical keyboards require the user to press the key to the bottom to activate it For all I don't like about Apple, their aluminum keyboards are what I prefer and use, precisely for the reasons stated in the article, and to counter your claim, the Apple aluminum keyboard travel is very short, so it bottoms out much quicker and still gives a feel like a mechanical keyboard.
- melling 10y ago
  My claim was that you don't want to hit the bottom. If the bottom is "very short", isn't that worse? I don't know the numbers for Apple's keyboards? You activate after about 2mm on a typical mechanical keyboard. You hit bottom around 4mm, which of course, you don't want to do.
stubish 10y ago
Oh, he has my key feature for an ergonomic keyboard (and he forgot to mention it). It doesn't have a keypad. This alone helps lots of shoulder issues by reducing horizontal travel switching to the mouse.

runin2k1 10y ago

All the ergo adjustments in the world won't help you if you sit in one position all day long with one small set of muscles engaged while the rest are disengaged and slowly atrophying. The best solution is touched on in the article, but it can't be overstated that actual exercise is the best preventative.

cylinder 10y ago
Easiest solution for an office worker is to just run up and own the stairwell a few times a day. I don't know how so many people just sit still all day, with a big lunch too, then wonder why they feel tired in the afternoons. Their only solution seems to be more garbage Keurig coffee!
- kjsthree 10y ago
  One of the most frustrating things about working in New York is the ample amount of potential stairs to climb with almost every door locked from the stairwell.
  - cylinder 10y ago
    Hah, same issue in my building in NYC.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    The epidemic has long since spread to the west coast. The Seattle building I currently work in has some limited, well-defined accessible stairwells, but AFAICT the majority are one-way, emergency-only. I've worked in buildings as you describe: one-way, down-only. Sucks when you don't know this yet, think you'll take the stairs to the fourth floor only to discover that you need to climb all the way to the bottom then take an elevator up. Security? Yeah, maybe, but that's bare-minimum-to-meet-the-spec lazy security.
    - stevenwiles 10y ago
      did "as far as i can tell" really need an acronym?

sjustinas 10y ago

Does anyone have an idea why, according to the author, a mouse being wireless is so essential?

WalterSear 10y ago
IMHO, it's because you can put it where you want, such as on a side table at arm height, rather than where the cable lets you.
dangerlibrary 10y ago
I can't think of any reason why a wireless mouse would have an ergonomic benefit over a wired one. They are the same size, shape, and orientation, and any decrease in drag from the lack of a cord is more than offset by the increased weight of the batteries.
- wcarss 10y ago
  When I'm reading a web page or code, I occasionally stand or sit with my mouse in my hand and my arm relaxed at my side, or across my chest. It changes the extension of my arm considerably and sometimes makes things much more comfortable.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Does anyone have an idea why, according to the author, a mouse being wireless is so essential? I'm not sure why according to the author, but the advantages I can think of are: (1) It allows more free repositioning to address ergonomic issues, and (2) While this doesn't necessarily happen all the time, lots of times wired mice end up with the wires running in paths where they ocassionally provide more resistance to certain movements, which seems likely to have negative ergonomic consequences over time.
npsimons 10y ago
Yeah, it bothered me that the author didn't even give a rationale for it, just mentioned it and brushed it aside, much like his other recommendations that are "industry standard." I agree with the main point of the article, and good solutions are touched upon lightly, but it feels really shallow and very much single anecdote.

NDizzle 10y ago

My solution is to use a lap desk. I have what is called an ePad which is going on 6 years old. I should probably replace it. I limit my desk time to 3 hours a day.

gadders 10y ago

On top of the exercises recommended in the article, I would also suggest "Band Pull-Aparts". These help undo some of the posture issues from working at a desk. This is a good instructional video on them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd9VoT1BPAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd9VoT1BPAY

overcast 10y ago

I had the Herman Miller Aeron chair for a decade, and I recently upgraded to the Embody from them. It's leagues better in the ergonomic department. So comfortable, and no back issues sitting for extremely long periods of time.

jholloway7 10y ago

Lifting weights can help, but it can also cause more harm when your routine isn't properly balanced. Doing only bench press and military press lifts for upper body is going to be a chest/tricep push heavy routine. If you're not balancing these pushes with pulls (chinups, pullups, rows, etc), it can promote issues like rolled shoulders, forward neck, weak traps, weak rhomboids or similar postural issues to those the author is trying to avoid in the first place. In fact, many lifters will add more pulls than pushes, because our day-to-day activities tend to be more push-oriented. The point is, if you're going to lift, pick a beginner's routine designed by someone who knows what they're doing that has push/pull balance programmed in from the outset. Don't just pick a couple lifts that you enjoy and throw out the rest.

ZeroFries 10y ago
Yep, getting a strong back (from pull type movements, as well as squats and deadlifts) has improved my posture more than anything else. Another to look into is weak/mis-firing glutes (from sitting all the time). Apparently planks (of a certain kind where you squeeze your glutes as well) help for that. http://www.romphysicaltherapy.ie/best-exercises-to-strengthen-and-stabilise-the-glute-muscles/ http://www.romphysicaltherapy.ie/best-exercises-to-strengthe...
- jholloway7 10y ago
  Totally agree!
jdpage 10y ago
Do you have any specific beginner's routines you'd recommend? I was doing 5x5, which has pulls in the form of barbell rows and deadlifts; I don't know if that's sufficient.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  You can always supplement the 5x5 routine with 3x8-10 (typically) accessory exercises with dumbbells. In some cases dumbbells will give you a better range of motion and help develop smaller muscles. Another common addition to 5x5 I've seen is adding a dedicated core day (weighted ab crunches, hanging leg raises, planks) Core is the 2nd most important part of doing pull exercises (after back)

tom_wilde 10y ago

fyi: a vertical mouse can help with lower arm issues. I swap between this and a normal one and simply varying the motion helped with my issues....

gglitch 10y ago
Thank you for this. I didn't even know vertical mice exist, but I've often remarked to myself how strange it feels to rotate my lower arm 45-90° to use the mouse. Purchased.

dmansen 10y ago

Pete Egoscue's book "Pain Free" is IMO, the best book for understanding correct posture and how to achieve it. https://www.amazon.com/Pain-Free-Revolutionary-Stopping-Chronic/dp/0553379887/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Pain-Free-Revolutionary-Stopping-Chro...

henrik_w 10y ago

I had pretty bad RSI some years ago, to the point where I thought I wouldn't be able to program anymore. However, I got through it, and I don't have any pains today. The key thing for me was starting to use a break program on my computer. Every 5 minutes I take a 10 seconds micro-break (let go of the mouse and keyboard). Every 45 minutes I take a 5 minute stretching break, and do 3 or 4 stretches. That, together with a split keyboard (Goldtouch) and a pen-shaped mouse called Penclic. Both those are great for me. Almost all regular keyboards are terrible from an ergonomic standpoint (especially Apple's), not to mention laptop keyboards. More details here: https://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/ https://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/

peteretep 10y ago
Forced break programs saved my wrists. I use AntiRSI on the Mac and WorkRave on anything else. Rocking a GoldTouch split foldable keyboard, Apple Trackpad, and the Roost that levels mentioned in his post
beachstartup 10y ago
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gripmaster https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3... try this too.
dvtv75 10y ago
I seem to recall hearing from my doctor that the micropause software simply made some people freeze up and wait, making it worse. She suggested that it would just be better to get up and do something completely different for a time. I found that, while working at home, hanging out laundry worked wonders. I've had a lot of people deride me and laugh at me for that single phrase, but not one of them suffered the pain of RSI. They probably wouldn't laugh so readily if they couldn't feed themselves - or open a locked door - for several months.

josephjrobison 10y ago

100% agree with this article - I also don't know how more people aren't in the chiropractor's office weekly. I went through a particularly intense period of working on my laptop and it resulted in a neck spasm so sever it was like daggers trying to move my neck. The doctor prescribed Vicodin it was that bad. But only when I went in for a series of chiropractic sessions did I improve my neck at the source. Thankfully now I'm more aware of just how important it is to not crane the neck, and I catch myself if I do it for more than 15 minutes at a time. It definitely is becoming an epidemic, and there needs to be a lot more public awareness around this. Not everyone can afford multiple chiro sessions a week for weeks at a time to correct something preventable!

yodsanklai 10y ago
> I also don't know how more people aren't in the chiropractor's office weekly Maybe because there are no evidence that it's effective. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/ https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/
- gooseus 10y ago
  Chiropractors don't fall just into "straights" and "mixers", there are entire schools which focus on evidence-based biomechanic adjustments and others that get way more woo-woo about it with energy healing and whatnot. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/science-based-chiropractic-an-oxymoron/ https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/science-based-chiroprac... That guy spent years being a chiropractor and while he acknowledges that the postulates of vertebral subluxation theory is implausible, he was also able to spend years helping people with spinal manipulations working as a chiropractor. It was only until recently that physical therapists began doing adjustments which began competing with chiropractics Like with anything, there are good and bad actors and even a bad actor may help people even if their justification for why something is helping is fundamentally flawed. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  - dpark 10y ago
    > That guy spent years being a chiropractor and while he acknowledges that the postulates of vertebral subluxation theory is implausible, he was also able to spend years helping people with spinal manipulations working as a chiropractor. Did he help them or did he deliver placebos? "Most cases of back pain are self limiting, and spinal manipulation is not often more effective than other physical treatment modalities in affecting the final outcome." > Like with anything, there are good and bad actors and even a bad actor may help people even if their justification for why something is helping is fundamentally flawed. Is there actual science supporting the claims? Not the mechanism claims, which are clearly bullshit. Is there even any support in the science for the claims of effectiveness?

ravenstine 10y ago

How often do you find that a person with a low body-fat ratio with negative effects caused by bad posture? The people who I've seen with obvious problems caused by poor posture, like a hump or sore back or joints, are usually moderately to highly overweight. Kind of like how women with large breasts can have problems with soreness or neck humps. I suspect that it's not so much about good posture as it is about having a variety of postures throughout the day and not having bodyweight stressing one's joints. Granted, I have no scientific evidence for this. It's just from my own observations(and my own experience of being a former fat guy).

npsimons 10y ago
I'll second this; after losing 50lbs, many health issues just went away. Adding in the the strength training (Rippetoe's SS:BBT), has just made me feel that much better.
surrealvortex 10y ago
To supply a counter-point, I'm underweight, and I had sore wrists and lower back pain before I made my workspace ergonomic.
mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
Skinny dude here who has had serious RSI/postural problems. Same for my boss. None of the research I did mentioned bodyweight as a cause for RSI.
rafaelm 10y ago
My wife weights 43kg and she has pretty bad posture. She is developing a hunch at 35! In my limited knowledge, its because of weak muscles all over. She's been skinny all her life. I'm looking in to what exercises she can do to get better.
- mendelsd 10y ago
  It's worth checking her thyroid function: "Some studies have related hypothyroidism to muscle dysfunction... Furthermore, studies ... demonstrated that thyroid hormone action on skeletal muscles affects mainly type-I muscle fibers, which promote slow contractions and are most prevalent in the postural muscles recruited during prolonged effort" [1] Also, not sure where you are in the world but your doctor telling you your thyroid hormone levels are ok unfortunately may not necessarily mean they are ok... There is a controversy about reference ranges amongst experts [2], and I think it's wise to pay attention to that. [1] http://www.scielo.br/pdf/abc/v87n3/en_a33v87n3.pdf http://www.scielo.br/pdf/abc/v87n3/en_a33v87n3.pdf [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16148345 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16148345

frankus 10y ago

It's probably not great for my wrists, but I particularly like the location of the built-in trackpad on my MacBook. So instead of raising the laptop in a stand and getting an external keyboard and mouse, I use an external display (24" 4K) at an ergonomic height/distance and keep the built-in monitor as a secondary screen (for example, running the iOS simulator on the MacBook screen and Xcode full screen on the external display). I arrange the screens so the built-in display is below the external one (i.e. the same arrangement as they are physically) and keep my dock on the left of the main display.

zeveb 10y ago

> Make sure [the mouse is] wireless. I disagree there — wireless mice & keyboards are terribly insecure. Other than that, seems like some good advice here.

dragonwriter 10y ago
Ergonomics and security are different concerns; the best mechanism for addressing one, considered on its own, may be suboptimal from the perspective of the other.
- zeveb 10y ago
  True enough, but security is a sine qua non: a system must be sufficiently secure before one even begins to consider ergonomics or anything else.
mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
I've found wired mice to be lighter. wireless can be heavy , depending on what kind of battery is used.
- redsparrow 10y ago
  When I last used wireless mice they had two AA batteries and I found it a great relief to go back to a much lighter wired mouse. It hadn't occurred to me that newer battery tech might be lighter. Maybe I should take another look at wireless mice. EDIT: The Logitech MX Master (a wireless mouse) weighs 145g including battery, and the M500 (corded) weighs 144g. That probably includes the cord, so the in-hand weight might be a little lower, but they're certainly close. Neato.

300bps 10y ago

About eleven years ago I started having crippling RSI in my hands and wrists. I fit the typical patient... Type all day sitting at a desk. Posted about it on Slashdot and someone told me to look up TMS. Changed my life. After years of problems it completely went away in weeks. After years of searching for ergonomic solutions it was bizarre that following TMS treatment cured it in weeks and now I don't do anything ergonomic and I have had no problems for over a decade. More info... http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vsR4wydiIBI http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vsR4wydiIBI

felixpl 10y ago
Did you do specific exercises, or just read and re-read Sarno's books to make the concept stick?

freshfey 10y ago

The article is a great starting point, but exercise in itself is not enough. If you've worked for multiple years in a (seated) office setting, chances are you have tight muscles. Muscle tissue then gets glued together and stuff like forward rolled shoulders happens. Now you go to a physical therapist with your neck or shoulder pain and he/she recommends you physical therapy. The problem is just, the area is too tight to react to the right kind of stimulus, so the trick is to first massage the area and then fix it with the right exercises. Simple tools like a lacrosse ball (5 bucks) or a foam roller (10-20ish bucks) can work wonders IF used regularly and in the right fashion. I've written about one part the issue here, called "text neck" https://bitehype.com/text-neck/ https://bitehype.com/text-neck/ - I've also compiled some of these lessons into a free email course, where I dive into the topic a bit deeper: https://www.dailybitsof.com/courses/fix-your-posture https://www.dailybitsof.com/courses/fix-your-posture I hope that helps - open to any questions in that area (my expertise comes from years of injury/self experimentation, bunch of interviews with doctors, physical therapists and massage therapists as well as visits to sports clinics. Oh and of course interest).

trhway 10y ago
>If you've worked for multiple years in a (seated) office setting and an year ago, after more than 2 decades (not counting university and before) of sitting i started to work standing. Wonderful. Besides posture and better breathing position, gone away some issues that started to appear during recent years due to bad circulation when sitting.

hackaflocka 10y ago

I haven't read all the other comments so not sure if this has been mentioned already. The modern concepts of posture may be wrong. I have a curved butt to shoulder area. It makes me look somewhat duck like. However, I never have any back aches etc. I know of people who are straight as a plank, and complain constantly of aches and pains. This TED talk will explain why curved is better than straight: https://youtu.be/k1luKAS_Xcg?t=224 https://youtu.be/k1luKAS_Xcg?t=224

fabiogo 10y ago

Walking a few minutes every hour is a simple way to clear your head, be more productive, and save your posture.

BeautifulData 10y ago
By all means do that, but in the long run it is not enough. 8 hours of sitting isn't countered by walking for 1 hour. There are many good exercises you can do with little to no equipment, the recommended routine of /r/bodyweightfitness is a good place to start https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommended_routine https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommend...

joesmo 10y ago

I disagree with his suggestions about keyboards and mice completely. It's not that simple. What helps the author might hurt someone else. I personally can't use a mouse or flat keyboard. Making these suggestions categorical destroys an otherwise good article.

heisenbit 10y ago
Same here. While the author has a point about laptops as a workspace he fails to distinguish between generally accepted best practices and his personal opinion. I've yet to see any totally flat keyboard to be recommended as ergonomic.

GoToRO 10y ago

Good tips. I may add: 1. A second mouse for my other hand. Pick a corporate mouse because those are symmetric. Use it to browse the web when you are not really working. 2. A desk with a dull (chamfer) edge.

Animats 10y ago

This is a consequence of laptop usage. You should have your screen at eye height, sit in a chair with arms, and have wrist support. Before laptops took over, there was a lot of concern about keyboard ergonomics. That seems to have disappeared. You can't even get the Microsoft Natural Keyboard any more.

zb 10y ago
Wat. https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboards/natural-ergonomic-keyboard-4000/b2m-00012 https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar...
- Animats 10y ago
  It's "out of stock" for business, but not for individuals? It looks like Microsoft brought this back as a new model in black with fake chrome, unlike the old beige model. (Still has the crappy spacebar mechanism, though; the spacebar is huge but has to be pushed near its center.)
vmarsy 10y ago
>You can't even get the Microsoft Natural Keyboard any more. Wow, are they Out of stock temporarily or permanently? https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Natural-Ergonomic-Keyboard-4000-for-Business/productID.278184200 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Natural... EDIT: They still offer plenty of Ergonomic keyboards, but only wireless one it seems. (For instance: https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Wireless-Comfort-Desktop-5050/productID.326222500 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Wireles... )
- to3m 10y ago
  You've got 2 options at the moment I think: Cheap MS Natural 4000: https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboards/natural-ergonomic-keyboard-4000/b2m-00012 https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar... (rubber domes - actually I think the space bar is OK, but tends to be stiff until it's had a couple of weeks of use) More expensive MS Sculpt Ergonomic: https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboards/sculpt-ergonomic-desktop/l5v-00001 https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-us/products/keyboar... (scissor switches + clicky buttons for F keys and Esc) Both are OK, I'd say. The 4000 has slightly nasty keyswitches, but in exchange it's got all the keys in traditional places. The Sculpt is nicer to type on, if you don't mind that sort of thing, but the non-standard keyboard layout leaves something to be desired. (One note of caution: I've had 5 of the MS 4000s now, and the newest one, bought a month ago, has a much squishier, quieter key action - presumably a new recipe with improved cost-effectiveness. I don't think this is any worse than what was there already, but some might disagree...)

venning 10y ago

RSI stands for "repetitive strain injury": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury (for those of us who didn't just know this)

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andrewaylett 10y ago

The very biggest thing for me -- having started suffering from wrist pain about ten years ago -- was switching from QWERTY to Dvorak for typing. It was quite a lot of work, but the wrist pain completely disappeared and hasn't been back.

Mithaldu 10y ago

For people looking for a cheaper option than the roost stand, i can strongly recommend book stands like this: https://www.amazon.de/gp/customer-reviews/R1MVD7C55Q9ZKD/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0012E0S00 https://www.amazon.de/gp/customer-reviews/R1MVD7C55Q9ZKD/ref... It can fit literally any machine, won't break from a puny laptop under any circumstance, folds very flat so fits in most bags, and can bring the screen really high.

ryanmarsh 10y ago

I have two slipped disks, sciatica, piriformis syndrome and I'm 6'3. Most work spaces are pure torture for me without my protocol: * Yoga or daily stretching * Walking (properly) * Epidural steroid injections every six months (for the disks) What would be better (for people who don't want to end up like me): A) Don't do dumb shit with your body (obvi) B) If facilities departments would stop buying torture devices just cuz that's what everyone's used to sitting in

JustUhThought 10y ago

Yoga!!! Don't knock it till you've tried it.

magicalpony 10y ago

An epidemic you say, doctor? Mostly I liked how you reconciled your personal pains with your expert domain knowledge about human biomechanics and health to provide medical advice, even providing Googled images that unequivocally demonstrate your claim and truly the extent of this epidemic. Sorry your arms hurt.

NerdBuddha 10y ago

Have someone tried BetterBack? I purchased mine but still have not received it.

artur_makly 10y ago

#1 PSA. I wonder what happens to all those bearded 20+year vets after all that neck carnage..scary.. so i just built one of these: http://www.latesthandmade.com/pvc-laptop-stand-diy-ideas/ http://www.latesthandmade.com/pvc-laptop-stand-diy-ideas/ And now EVERYONE in the office wants one. Best investment of the year. +Also fun to paint/customize them. and YOGA YOGA YOGA!

kapauldo 10y ago

This is a great write-up. Thanks for sharing.