8 ms·

This is a short story about someone who expected the world handed to them because they had a master's degree and it didn't work out. It's hardly a revelation a

This is a short story about someone who expected the world handed to them because they had a master's degree and it didn't work out. It's hardly a revelation and seems to skirt the line between pity party and reflection on hubris. This isn't some upstart rethinking the way we work. It's an entitled person coming to the realization that they were wrong over the course of a few paragraphs.

pw0ncakes 17y ago
It's an "entitled" person being failed by society and realizing that a lot of others who were similarly failed are neither lazy nor stupid (refuting the economic Calvinism that characterizes American conservatism) but, rather, are unlucky people much like her.
- dantheman 17y ago
  She's not being failed by society -- she thought society owed her, and that she was better than those around her. She then realized that people are people, and that we should respect all of them regardless of the job they do.
  - pw0ncakes 17y ago
    She was wrong that she was better, but society still failed her by having nothing more productive for her to do than cleaning rental apartments, and no means of providing income/retraining in the event that there was no suitable work for her. 120 IQ people should not be doing 80 IQ work. This isn't about "better"; it's about suitability to the work. When the 120-IQ person is doing 80-IQ work, it's an injustice for two reasons. 1) She's bored, miserable, and underpaid relative to what she'd be earning in a functional society. 2) The 80-IQ people who want and enjoy jobs cleaning apartments now have her as competition, and can be paid less and treated worse.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
    - yummyfajitas 17y ago
      Some people of high intelligence are not suited to what you would probably call high IQ work. I know someone who was extremely intelligent, way above 120 IQ. She couldn't handle an academic research job because she wasn't self motivated or curious. She couldn't handle a job in finance because of the stress. So she's now teaching calc, a job which is most likely 20-30 IQ points below her, and is reasonably happy doing so. Intelligence isn't everything.
      - araneae 17y ago
        That's just two jobs. I'm sure there other jobs where she could use her IQ that aren't as pointless as academia or stressful as finance where she could make use of her intelligence.
      - pw0ncakes 17y ago
        Teaching high school math is, all considered, a pretty good job. I'm not saying that anyone deserves their ideal job, or the "right" job for their IQ level (which for a 140+ would probably be research). I'm saying that something is seriously wrong if people who are smart enough to get advanced degrees are cleaning hotel rooms. Either society is failing, or too many people are getting advanced degrees (obviously, both are true).
        yummyfajitas 17y ago
        I'm really curious why you consider research to teaching to be an acceptable step down, but editing documents to manual labor is not an acceptable step down. Is it simply because teaching (like research) is still done by white NYT reading liberals, whereas manual labor can be done by religious mexicans who like to watch cockfights?
        pw0ncakes 17y ago
        It's because teaching still uses one's creative abilities and pays a middle-income salary.
- dkarl 17y ago
  ... which is a pious, self-congratulatory cliche. I don't mean to attack the sincerity of this particular author, since this might be a perfectly honest and genuine account, but for an educated liberal young person to write about accepting a working-class Spanish-speaking working mother as her peer is not really any different from writing about how pretty, thin, or well-educated she is. That is to say, whether it's true or not, it's in bad taste.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    "but for an educated liberal young person" I suspect most other liberal young people are not cleaning kitchen sinks in other people's apartments when they have that revelation, though. Bad taste - or maybe it is just being honest? It's not as if those people who are not saying it (supposedly showing better taste) are not thinking it.
  - pyre 17y ago
    > for an educated liberal young person to write about accepting a working-class Spanish-speaking working mother as her peer is not really any different from writing about how pretty, thin, or well-educated she is. That is to say, whether it's true or not, it's in bad taste. Isn't the whole point, "I used to think there was a distinction before and I used it to discriminate, but now I realize that I was wrong?" How is that message in bad taste? {edit} For example, if someone in the 1860s (or even 1960s) said something like : "Black people are just the same as I am. I used to think different and think that they were below me, but now I realize that skin color isn't everything." Your response would be something like: "That comment is in bad taste. You're just trying to emphasize the fact that you're white and not black!" In other words, that 'whoosh' sound you hear is the point of the whole thing going over your head.
    - caffeine 17y ago
      > In other words, that 'whoosh' sound you hear is the point of the whole thing going over your head. That's completely unnecessary and not at all in the spirit of HN. > How is that message in bad taste? What about "I'm a really wise person who has come to understand an important truth in the world, that other people are people too." Is that in bad taste? Or "I'm awesome. Really awesome." ? What about "Hey! Approve of me!" This thread is becoming a bit overly blunt.
wvenable 17y ago
I'm not so sure it's merely that this person is entitled; this is exactly what society sells people. Every child is told that they should go to college, get a degree, and they'll setup for life. So people study for years and pay tens of thousands of dollars -- it would be totally irrational to do all that without the expectation of getting something for it. If whole thing is a big con then this person is just a victim.
- SamAtt 17y ago
  This is the what society sells people who are in the upper middle or just plain upper classes. I grew up poor and my parents taught me to work hard, keep my head down and hope for the best. No one ever promised me an outcome and I never expected it.
  - pgbovine 17y ago
    This is the what society sells people who are in the upper middle or just plain upper classes. what about all the outreach that (especially public) universities do to encourage middle-class and lower-class americans to all attend a 4-year college? i don't think college in the US is something that's exclusively sold to rich kids
    - Qz 17y ago
      It's not just sold to rich kids -- but there's also an implication that, for a non-rich person, going to college can enable you to move out of your income class.
    - kiba 17y ago
      People think there are opportunities in field where there are none. Said people found out that it isn't the case. The university system may have lied to them. Their parents may be mistaken, etc. The system may indeed need fundamental reform or it may not. Even if the system needs to be reformed, it may just be impossible for you to agitate change. Whatever reason for the failure, it's not the end of the world. People need to keep hanging in there, and forge a new path for themselves. If others are coming to help you, that's good. If not, just solider on. Be attached to nothing. Pick yourself up and move forward. Don't expect other people to help you. If they do, be sure to pay them back in the future. That's the advice I am taking for myself if things ever go really bad. I decided not to go to college, and will probably be kicked out by my parents for not doing what they asked of me. I don't know how to make a living, much less find a place to live. I probably need health insurance to survive. It look grim as a situation. I am sure I will figure out something and make it.
SamAtt 17y ago
I think you're being a little harsh. At least she realizes this is how the world is and accepts it. In my book that's far better than those who scream the world should be changed because it isn't working out perfectly for them (See pw0ncakes reply) Then again the undertow of the story (which the author is clearly too embarrased to say outright) is that she thought she was better than house cleaners before she became one (and met someone else who thought they were better than her). So I guess there's a certain poetic justice to it.
- yequalsx 17y ago
  It is a very bad thing for a society to be such that getting an advanced degree is not an economic advantage. In fact, as the story illustrates, right now it is sometimes an economic disadvantage due to the opportunity costs of getting an advanced degree. This has bad long term consequences. This is what I too to be the undertow of the story.
biggitybones 17y ago
Sadly I see this mentality with my peers, particularly among those that go to what are considered good private universities and have affluent parents. A sense of entitlement bred throughout their lives from being told things like "you're smart, you'll get a great job and a great family and be happy" continually. It totally leaves out the work and luck parts of the equation. A few of my friends (more like acquaintances) are going through this type of experience, although unfortunately I doubt they'll learn the lesson that this girl learned because of being propped up by their parents. This reinforces why places like this community as well as the startup world in general is so great; a sense of entitlement leads to immediate failure. It's a reality check to those who think this way, and they'll either be humbled or get out.
jhancock 17y ago
I found the story to be a well told description of what many will discover during this "lost decade" the U.S. has just begun.
timr 17y ago
Thank you for validating my view of the world: before I clicked the comments link, I made a personal wager that the highest-rated comment would be a self-satisfied post by someone who would misinterpret the story as a commentary on entitlement and higher education. I can see that I was correct. "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley." That's the moral of the story. Whatever you think you know about your future based on your past choices, there's a good chance that you're wrong. There are plenty of people from trade schools and community colleges who bought into the same dream as this woman, so advancement through education isn't exactly an a "hubris" exclusive to the vile, arrogant bourgoise.
amohr 17y ago
Is it really entitlement to think that you should be able to get a better job with an advanced degree than with barely a high school education? In high school, I worked in a library for about min wage + 40% or so. 5 years later, I got turned down for a position with the same township, paying barely above min wage, but they decided to "go with someone with tree-planting experience." The point is, the tagline for higher education has always been "Get a degree, get a better job - people with a college education earn X more in their lifetime" etc. If college was free, it would be one thing. But it's not. And the truth is, I now have around 15k in student loans, and I'm begging and pleading for jobs that I could have done when I was 16 - and I'm losing those jobs to people with work experience that they got while I was off getting a piece of paper that seems to make me a liability. Now we're coming back with a newfound respect for the people who were smart enough to see through that load. A high school buddy of mine just got out of the SEAL program and has been unemployed for six months. We're the prodigal sons of the working world, but nobody slaughters the fattened calf when we come crawling back.
- jerf 17y ago
  "Is it really entitlement to think that you should be able to get a better job with an advanced degree than with barely a high school education?" If you have obtained a degree that leaves you unable to produce value that can be captured to some degree and paid to you as a salary, then, yes. I don't know what your personal degree was in. It could well be in such a thing, in which you may need to consider moving to where jobs are. I'm mostly just responding to your first question. Unfortunately, being told all your life that it wasn't entitlement but your due doesn't make it true. Generate value, or expect to have problems standing out in a sea of people who basically can't.
- anamax 17y ago
  > Is it really entitlement to think that you should be able to get a better job with an advanced degree than with barely a high school education? Yes. What does your advanced degree tell employers about your ability and motivation to solve their problems? (Yes, the answer depends on the employer and your degrees.) That's the relevant question because employers don't care about your problems. They care about their problems. (Customers are the same way.) If someone told you that your degree would say something that it isn't saying, you need to talk with them.

pw0ncakes 17y ago

It's an "entitled" person being failed by society and realizing that a lot of others who were similarly failed are neither lazy nor stupid (refuting the economic Calvinism that characterizes American conservatism) but, rather, are unlucky people much like her.

dantheman 17y ago
She's not being failed by society -- she thought society owed her, and that she was better than those around her. She then realized that people are people, and that we should respect all of them regardless of the job they do.
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  She was wrong that she was better, but society still failed her by having nothing more productive for her to do than cleaning rental apartments, and no means of providing income/retraining in the event that there was no suitable work for her. 120 IQ people should not be doing 80 IQ work. This isn't about "better"; it's about suitability to the work. When the 120-IQ person is doing 80-IQ work, it's an injustice for two reasons. 1) She's bored, miserable, and underpaid relative to what she'd be earning in a functional society. 2) The 80-IQ people who want and enjoy jobs cleaning apartments now have her as competition, and can be paid less and treated worse.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    Some people of high intelligence are not suited to what you would probably call high IQ work. I know someone who was extremely intelligent, way above 120 IQ. She couldn't handle an academic research job because she wasn't self motivated or curious. She couldn't handle a job in finance because of the stress. So she's now teaching calc, a job which is most likely 20-30 IQ points below her, and is reasonably happy doing so. Intelligence isn't everything.
    - araneae 17y ago
      That's just two jobs. I'm sure there other jobs where she could use her IQ that aren't as pointless as academia or stressful as finance where she could make use of her intelligence.
    - pw0ncakes 17y ago
      Teaching high school math is, all considered, a pretty good job. I'm not saying that anyone deserves their ideal job, or the "right" job for their IQ level (which for a 140+ would probably be research). I'm saying that something is seriously wrong if people who are smart enough to get advanced degrees are cleaning hotel rooms. Either society is failing, or too many people are getting advanced degrees (obviously, both are true).
      - yummyfajitas 17y ago
        I'm really curious why you consider research to teaching to be an acceptable step down, but editing documents to manual labor is not an acceptable step down. Is it simply because teaching (like research) is still done by white NYT reading liberals, whereas manual labor can be done by religious mexicans who like to watch cockfights?
        pw0ncakes 17y ago
        It's because teaching still uses one's creative abilities and pays a middle-income salary.
dkarl 17y ago
... which is a pious, self-congratulatory cliche. I don't mean to attack the sincerity of this particular author, since this might be a perfectly honest and genuine account, but for an educated liberal young person to write about accepting a working-class Spanish-speaking working mother as her peer is not really any different from writing about how pretty, thin, or well-educated she is. That is to say, whether it's true or not, it's in bad taste.
- Tichy 17y ago
  "but for an educated liberal young person" I suspect most other liberal young people are not cleaning kitchen sinks in other people's apartments when they have that revelation, though. Bad taste - or maybe it is just being honest? It's not as if those people who are not saying it (supposedly showing better taste) are not thinking it.
- pyre 17y ago
  > for an educated liberal young person to write about accepting a working-class Spanish-speaking working mother as her peer is not really any different from writing about how pretty, thin, or well-educated she is. That is to say, whether it's true or not, it's in bad taste. Isn't the whole point, "I used to think there was a distinction before and I used it to discriminate, but now I realize that I was wrong?" How is that message in bad taste? {edit} For example, if someone in the 1860s (or even 1960s) said something like : "Black people are just the same as I am. I used to think different and think that they were below me, but now I realize that skin color isn't everything." Your response would be something like: "That comment is in bad taste. You're just trying to emphasize the fact that you're white and not black!" In other words, that 'whoosh' sound you hear is the point of the whole thing going over your head.
  - caffeine 17y ago
    > In other words, that 'whoosh' sound you hear is the point of the whole thing going over your head. That's completely unnecessary and not at all in the spirit of HN. > How is that message in bad taste? What about "I'm a really wise person who has come to understand an important truth in the world, that other people are people too." Is that in bad taste? Or "I'm awesome. Really awesome." ? What about "Hey! Approve of me!" This thread is becoming a bit overly blunt.

wvenable 17y ago

I'm not so sure it's merely that this person is entitled; this is exactly what society sells people. Every child is told that they should go to college, get a degree, and they'll setup for life. So people study for years and pay tens of thousands of dollars -- it would be totally irrational to do all that without the expectation of getting something for it. If whole thing is a big con then this person is just a victim.

SamAtt 17y ago
This is the what society sells people who are in the upper middle or just plain upper classes. I grew up poor and my parents taught me to work hard, keep my head down and hope for the best. No one ever promised me an outcome and I never expected it.
- pgbovine 17y ago
  This is the what society sells people who are in the upper middle or just plain upper classes. what about all the outreach that (especially public) universities do to encourage middle-class and lower-class americans to all attend a 4-year college? i don't think college in the US is something that's exclusively sold to rich kids
  - Qz 17y ago
    It's not just sold to rich kids -- but there's also an implication that, for a non-rich person, going to college can enable you to move out of your income class.
  - kiba 17y ago
    People think there are opportunities in field where there are none. Said people found out that it isn't the case. The university system may have lied to them. Their parents may be mistaken, etc. The system may indeed need fundamental reform or it may not. Even if the system needs to be reformed, it may just be impossible for you to agitate change. Whatever reason for the failure, it's not the end of the world. People need to keep hanging in there, and forge a new path for themselves. If others are coming to help you, that's good. If not, just solider on. Be attached to nothing. Pick yourself up and move forward. Don't expect other people to help you. If they do, be sure to pay them back in the future. That's the advice I am taking for myself if things ever go really bad. I decided not to go to college, and will probably be kicked out by my parents for not doing what they asked of me. I don't know how to make a living, much less find a place to live. I probably need health insurance to survive. It look grim as a situation. I am sure I will figure out something and make it.

SamAtt 17y ago

I think you're being a little harsh. At least she realizes this is how the world is and accepts it. In my book that's far better than those who scream the world should be changed because it isn't working out perfectly for them (See pw0ncakes reply) Then again the undertow of the story (which the author is clearly too embarrased to say outright) is that she thought she was better than house cleaners before she became one (and met someone else who thought they were better than her). So I guess there's a certain poetic justice to it.

yequalsx 17y ago
It is a very bad thing for a society to be such that getting an advanced degree is not an economic advantage. In fact, as the story illustrates, right now it is sometimes an economic disadvantage due to the opportunity costs of getting an advanced degree. This has bad long term consequences. This is what I too to be the undertow of the story.

biggitybones 17y ago

Sadly I see this mentality with my peers, particularly among those that go to what are considered good private universities and have affluent parents. A sense of entitlement bred throughout their lives from being told things like "you're smart, you'll get a great job and a great family and be happy" continually. It totally leaves out the work and luck parts of the equation. A few of my friends (more like acquaintances) are going through this type of experience, although unfortunately I doubt they'll learn the lesson that this girl learned because of being propped up by their parents. This reinforces why places like this community as well as the startup world in general is so great; a sense of entitlement leads to immediate failure. It's a reality check to those who think this way, and they'll either be humbled or get out.

jhancock 17y ago

I found the story to be a well told description of what many will discover during this "lost decade" the U.S. has just begun.

timr 17y ago

Thank you for validating my view of the world: before I clicked the comments link, I made a personal wager that the highest-rated comment would be a self-satisfied post by someone who would misinterpret the story as a commentary on entitlement and higher education. I can see that I was correct. "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley." That's the moral of the story. Whatever you think you know about your future based on your past choices, there's a good chance that you're wrong. There are plenty of people from trade schools and community colleges who bought into the same dream as this woman, so advancement through education isn't exactly an a "hubris" exclusive to the vile, arrogant bourgoise.

amohr 17y ago

Is it really entitlement to think that you should be able to get a better job with an advanced degree than with barely a high school education? In high school, I worked in a library for about min wage + 40% or so. 5 years later, I got turned down for a position with the same township, paying barely above min wage, but they decided to "go with someone with tree-planting experience." The point is, the tagline for higher education has always been "Get a degree, get a better job - people with a college education earn X more in their lifetime" etc. If college was free, it would be one thing. But it's not. And the truth is, I now have around 15k in student loans, and I'm begging and pleading for jobs that I could have done when I was 16 - and I'm losing those jobs to people with work experience that they got while I was off getting a piece of paper that seems to make me a liability. Now we're coming back with a newfound respect for the people who were smart enough to see through that load. A high school buddy of mine just got out of the SEAL program and has been unemployed for six months. We're the prodigal sons of the working world, but nobody slaughters the fattened calf when we come crawling back.

jerf 17y ago
"Is it really entitlement to think that you should be able to get a better job with an advanced degree than with barely a high school education?" If you have obtained a degree that leaves you unable to produce value that can be captured to some degree and paid to you as a salary, then, yes. I don't know what your personal degree was in. It could well be in such a thing, in which you may need to consider moving to where jobs are. I'm mostly just responding to your first question. Unfortunately, being told all your life that it wasn't entitlement but your due doesn't make it true. Generate value, or expect to have problems standing out in a sea of people who basically can't.
anamax 17y ago
> Is it really entitlement to think that you should be able to get a better job with an advanced degree than with barely a high school education? Yes. What does your advanced degree tell employers about your ability and motivation to solve their problems? (Yes, the answer depends on the employer and your degrees.) That's the relevant question because employers don't care about your problems. They care about their problems. (Customers are the same way.) If someone told you that your degree would say something that it isn't saying, you need to talk with them.