6 ms·

I find it interesting that a Polish man was charged by US laws, rather than under Polish law. I think he opened himself to US law by hosting the servers at one

by josho 10y ago

I find it interesting that a Polish man was charged by US laws, rather than under Polish law. I think he opened himself to US law by hosting the servers at one point in the US. Regardless, it is rather fascinating that his first visit to the US could potentially be from extradition.

ikeboy 10y ago
Anyone doing things that affect the US is automatically subject to US jurisdiction. But whether they can be extradited depends on the particular treaty the country in question has with the US.
- joering2 10y ago
  Are there any good examples of when this works the other way around? A US citizen being extradited to another country for non-violent crimes? Something in tune of computer hacking or hosting a website? Other than drugs and murders, I have a hard time believing US govt to give out its citizens to third parties...
  - ikeboy 10y ago
    You could start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_extradited_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_extradited_fro... Of those, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stein_Bagger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stein_Bagger, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_Bastiaens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_Bastiaens, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kirk_(New_Zealand_politician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kirk_(New_Zealand_politic... are not drug or violence related on a quick glance.
    - joering2 10y ago
      Thanks for searching this. On the first link I only found one US citizen though.
    - themartorana 10y ago
      None of those people are US citizens. They're foreign nationals extradited from the US most often back to their country of origin.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - 6nf 10y ago
    The USA will not extradite someone for a crime that is not also a crime in the USA itself.
    - gambiting 10y ago
      Does USA ever extradite its own citizens anywhere? Has this ever happened?
      - 6nf 10y ago
        Yes it happens, not often but it does.
    - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
      They will cause people to be extradited from countries where the actions weren't criminal ... what sort they dish to arrange those one-sides extradition treaties I wonder. This sort of hypocrisy seems pretty immoral.
  - blastrat 10y ago
    extradition treaties are reciprocal, no country is going to extradite its citizens if the other country won't extradite theirs in return. the numbers don't necessarily balance: probably a lot more Mexicans commit crimes in the US and flee to Mexico than the other way around. Usually, I would think, extradition entails countries extraditing their own citizens back to face charges at home; people will tend to commit crimes where they are, and run away after to escape; most people are citizens where they live. Countries with higher rates of immigration will have more foreignors around who have a natural place to escape to if they commit a crime.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      > extradition treaties are reciprocal, no country is going to extradite its citizens if the other country won't extradite theirs in return. That's not quite accurate. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16041824 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16041824 > A critical test set out in the treaty is that the British request must include "such information as would provide a reasonable basis to believe that the person sought committed the offence for which extradition is requested." > This requirement does not apply to requests submitted by the US to the UK
      - blastrat 10y ago
        thanks for that, interesting article! but your quotes are a little selective and tell only one side of the story of that more nuanced article, I think leaving a deep misimpression for readers here on HN. another quote from the article says "a Home Office-commissioned independent review...found the US had not refused any extradition requests since the treaty came into force. A total of seven US requests were refused by the UK in that time." that asymmetry in the treaty is not the result of a disparity of negotiating power nor clearly unfair-to-one-side. It's because the US has "untreatyable" constitutional rights that UK does not grant its own subjects, so for due process to grant an extradition request, the UK must submit that evidence. Since the US and UK are such close allies, that treaty may reflect the UK's desire not to slow down the process in either direction. Perhaps (this is pure speculation, we don't have the data) if the US complied in the other direction as the UK does, the UK courts would grant more of the extradition requests. I'm not meaning to argue that the asymmetry works out fairly for every single defendant, clearly individuals will suffer more in one direction than the other, I'm saying that "the People" on both sides are not necessarily disadvantaged if we "presume evidence of guilt" and a symmetric desire to punish. and this is for another topic, but the presumption of guilt is how the system is designed to work, otherwise, how could they even compel you to show up in court, or hold an axe murderer while awaiting trial? the commonly quoted "presumption of innocence" applies when you are in court in front of judge and jury; the entire rest of the system from arrest thru the trial is based on a necessary presumption of high probability of guilt.
  - mdpopescu 10y ago
    It doesn't happen even if it's murder. I know at least one case where an American soldier killed someone in Romania and was immediately sent back to the US instead of facing trial. See https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/07BUCHAREST1286_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/07BUCHAREST1286_a.html for details.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
mulander 10y ago
He reportedly is Ukrainian and not Polish. This makes it even more interesting. I also didn't hear any Polish media reporting his arrest (I live in Poland). I would like to know where in the country he was arrested and what he was doing in Poland - no luck so far.
akerro 10y ago
> Artem Vaulin Not Polish name, rather Ukrainian or Russian.
kybernetyk 10y ago
>I find it interesting that a Polish man was charged by US laws, rather than under Polish law. Recent Polish policy is to become _the_ continental European ally to the US. So I guess this guy's fate is rather bleak as the Polish authorities will do everything they can to please the US. He will get extradited and probably will spend the rest of his life behind bars.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

by josho 10y ago

ikeboy 10y ago

Anyone doing things that affect the US is automatically subject to US jurisdiction. But whether they can be extradited depends on the particular treaty the country in question has with the US.

joering2 10y ago
Are there any good examples of when this works the other way around? A US citizen being extradited to another country for non-violent crimes? Something in tune of computer hacking or hosting a website? Other than drugs and murders, I have a hard time believing US govt to give out its citizens to third parties...
- ikeboy 10y ago
  You could start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_extradited_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_extradited_fro... Of those, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stein_Bagger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stein_Bagger, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_Bastiaens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_Bastiaens, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kirk_(New_Zealand_politician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kirk_(New_Zealand_politic... are not drug or violence related on a quick glance.
  - joering2 10y ago
    Thanks for searching this. On the first link I only found one US citizen though.
  - themartorana 10y ago
    None of those people are US citizens. They're foreign nationals extradited from the US most often back to their country of origin.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- 6nf 10y ago
  The USA will not extradite someone for a crime that is not also a crime in the USA itself.
  - gambiting 10y ago
    Does USA ever extradite its own citizens anywhere? Has this ever happened?
    - 6nf 10y ago
      Yes it happens, not often but it does.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    They will cause people to be extradited from countries where the actions weren't criminal ... what sort they dish to arrange those one-sides extradition treaties I wonder. This sort of hypocrisy seems pretty immoral.
- blastrat 10y ago
  extradition treaties are reciprocal, no country is going to extradite its citizens if the other country won't extradite theirs in return. the numbers don't necessarily balance: probably a lot more Mexicans commit crimes in the US and flee to Mexico than the other way around. Usually, I would think, extradition entails countries extraditing their own citizens back to face charges at home; people will tend to commit crimes where they are, and run away after to escape; most people are citizens where they live. Countries with higher rates of immigration will have more foreignors around who have a natural place to escape to if they commit a crime.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    > extradition treaties are reciprocal, no country is going to extradite its citizens if the other country won't extradite theirs in return. That's not quite accurate. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16041824 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16041824 > A critical test set out in the treaty is that the British request must include "such information as would provide a reasonable basis to believe that the person sought committed the offence for which extradition is requested." > This requirement does not apply to requests submitted by the US to the UK
    - blastrat 10y ago
      thanks for that, interesting article! but your quotes are a little selective and tell only one side of the story of that more nuanced article, I think leaving a deep misimpression for readers here on HN. another quote from the article says "a Home Office-commissioned independent review...found the US had not refused any extradition requests since the treaty came into force. A total of seven US requests were refused by the UK in that time." that asymmetry in the treaty is not the result of a disparity of negotiating power nor clearly unfair-to-one-side. It's because the US has "untreatyable" constitutional rights that UK does not grant its own subjects, so for due process to grant an extradition request, the UK must submit that evidence. Since the US and UK are such close allies, that treaty may reflect the UK's desire not to slow down the process in either direction. Perhaps (this is pure speculation, we don't have the data) if the US complied in the other direction as the UK does, the UK courts would grant more of the extradition requests. I'm not meaning to argue that the asymmetry works out fairly for every single defendant, clearly individuals will suffer more in one direction than the other, I'm saying that "the People" on both sides are not necessarily disadvantaged if we "presume evidence of guilt" and a symmetric desire to punish. and this is for another topic, but the presumption of guilt is how the system is designed to work, otherwise, how could they even compel you to show up in court, or hold an axe murderer while awaiting trial? the commonly quoted "presumption of innocence" applies when you are in court in front of judge and jury; the entire rest of the system from arrest thru the trial is based on a necessary presumption of high probability of guilt.
- mdpopescu 10y ago
  It doesn't happen even if it's murder. I know at least one case where an American soldier killed someone in Romania and was immediately sent back to the US instead of facing trial. See https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/07BUCHAREST1286_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/07BUCHAREST1286_a.html for details.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

mulander 10y ago

He reportedly is Ukrainian and not Polish. This makes it even more interesting. I also didn't hear any Polish media reporting his arrest (I live in Poland). I would like to know where in the country he was arrested and what he was doing in Poland - no luck so far.

akerro 10y ago

> Artem Vaulin Not Polish name, rather Ukrainian or Russian.

kybernetyk 10y ago

>I find it interesting that a Polish man was charged by US laws, rather than under Polish law. Recent Polish policy is to become _the_ continental European ally to the US. So I guess this guy's fate is rather bleak as the Polish authorities will do everything they can to please the US. He will get extradited and probably will spend the rest of his life behind bars.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]