4 ms·

I don't think it's fair to put this on either the EU or Turkey alone. There were many factors prevent Turkish membership but the parent is right: religion playe

by pluma 10y ago

I don't think it's fair to put this on either the EU or Turkey alone. There were many factors prevent Turkish membership but the parent is right: religion played a huge role in the public opinion. I remember Merkel actually saying that Europe was founded on "Christian ideals" (nevermind the actual ideals having more to do with post-renaissance secularism than original Christian dogma) -- the same Merkel nationalists are now blaming for the "Islamification" of Europe. If Turkey had been more compatible and the EU members had been less bigoted, I imagine Turkey could have even helped with the "Islamification" so many people are now worrying about -- it would created a European example for how Islam can work under Western ideals and prevented a lot of the guilt and xenophobia that lies at the root of a lot of the conflicts with Islam we now have in Europe.

pbhjpbhj 10y ago
>the actual ideals having more to do with post-renaissance secularism // Could you go in to that a little, a few examples maybe of the main non-Christian ideals that underpin the founding of Europe.
- tremon 10y ago
  Some pointers to start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment the central doctrines [..] were individual liberty and religious tolerance in opposition to an absolute monarchy and the fixed dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church [..] along with increased questioning of religious orthodoxy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9,_%C3%A9galit%C3%A9,_fraternit%C3%A9#Other_nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9,_%C3%A9galit%C3%A... The ideals of the French Revolution eventually became the underpinnings of both the US Constitution and the European and UN Declarations of Human Rights. The reason why they're called non-Christian is because they originated as a countermovement to religious doctrine.
  - Ankaios 10y ago
    The ideals of the French Revolution eventually became the underpinnings of both the US Constitution and the European and UN Declarations of Human Rights. Just a small timeline correction: the Constitution was actually ratified a year before the start of the French Revolution.

by pluma 10y ago

pbhjpbhj 10y ago

>the actual ideals having more to do with post-renaissance secularism // Could you go in to that a little, a few examples maybe of the main non-Christian ideals that underpin the founding of Europe.

tremon 10y ago
Some pointers to start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment the central doctrines [..] were individual liberty and religious tolerance in opposition to an absolute monarchy and the fixed dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church [..] along with increased questioning of religious orthodoxy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9,_%C3%A9galit%C3%A9,_fraternit%C3%A9#Other_nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9,_%C3%A9galit%C3%A... The ideals of the French Revolution eventually became the underpinnings of both the US Constitution and the European and UN Declarations of Human Rights. The reason why they're called non-Christian is because they originated as a countermovement to religious doctrine.
- Ankaios 10y ago
  The ideals of the French Revolution eventually became the underpinnings of both the US Constitution and the European and UN Declarations of Human Rights. Just a small timeline correction: the Constitution was actually ratified a year before the start of the French Revolution.