7 ms·

Of course those streets are wide by (some) Chinese standards where they build entire blocks with 10+ story buildings meters apart.

by uola 10y ago

mikeash 10y ago
The Chinese cities I've visited (Beijing mostly, a little bit in Qingdao, Shanghai, and Suzhou) are full of gigantic streets. It's amazingly unfriendly for pedestrians, considering how many there are. Six lane roads are quite common, and the tight little streets shown in that article are reserved for the rare places which have avoided redevelopment due to tourist appeal or whatever. Between the huge streets and the crazy drivers, I really don't enjoy walking around. Typical American cities are much better in that respect, although many fewer Americans take advantage.
- crdb 10y ago
  Interesting, I have the opposite experience. I much prefer walking in streets designed by central planners to accommodate modern crowds (Singapore, central Beijing, central Chengdu...) than twisty narrow streets there for historical reasons (Hong Kong, especially the stretch from Central to Sheung Wan, especially on weekends; but also the "preserved" hutongs in Beijing). The reason is crowds: try walking through Sheung Wan, or Singapore's preserved shophouse streets in Chinatown, on a Sunday afternoon and see what average speed you achieve... And you can also spot crazy drivers better in a large, wide-roaded grid than round the corner of a hutong where you have to spot the direction of the rapidly approaching noise so you know which side to jump. Not to mention: the sun can actually shine if the roads are wide, in tight streets you are in the dark even at lunchtime. Smog is a problem which can be solved, as much of Europe and the US have demonstrated. China will eventually move industry out of the cities and drive with catalytic converters. Where tight streets might win is when they are coupled with a pedestrian area. "No cars" is still the most pleasant walking experience.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Some "preserved street" everybody visits is going to suck, sure. For something like that, more space is better. But if you go to one that isn't just a tourist attraction, they're very nice. For example, there's one I've been to a couple of times, I think it's Nanluogu, where the main street is unbelievably crowded but if you just hang a left or right, suddenly everything becomes fairly quiet and calm.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Beijing doesn't really have that many wide streets. The worst inside the 4th ring road is Chang'An Jie and a few streets inside 2nd ring that are mostly gov buildings, which just happens to be where all the tourists go. But a typical residents wouldn't encounter such streets every day or even every month. Even Zhongguancun DaJie is only really 4 lanes in most places, and even that is sky bridged crossing in many places.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- vacri 10y ago
  The US is hostile to pedestrians. As a visitor a while, I had to be much more aware of drivers as I walked around, and two times (one in Texas, one in Cali), while crossing the road with the walk lights, I had to stop dead in my tracks or I would have literally walked into the side of a car turning in front of me. I felt safer jaywalking in NYC than crossing legally in some other cities, which was weird...
  - mikeash 10y ago
    China would blow your mind, then. The concept of pedestrian right of way doesn't exist, not even when you have a clear walk signal. Cars will approach from left, right, front, and back, with no care in the world. You had to stop twice in your tracks to avoid a car turning in front of you? Try doing that multiple times every time you cross the street, all while checking both sides to make sure nobody flat-out runs you over.
- thaumasiotes 10y ago
  Shanghai has very narrow streets and very wide ones. That just depends where you are. Streets that for whatever reason can't be crossed by pedestrians are dealt with by having pedestrian underpasses or overpasses, though.
  - varjag 10y ago
    Under/overpasses are still very pedestrian unfriendly.
    - thaumasiotes 10y ago
      How so? You can cross the street at any time you feel like it, with zero risk of being hit. In my experience they are vastly more pedestrian-friendly than crosswalks. What problem are you thinking of? The overpasses at lujiazui are very popular with tourists who want to pose in front of the pearl tower for a photo. Try that in the middle of a street.
      - varjag 10y ago
        Over/underpasses are extra physical effort, which quickly gets old when you pull that luggage bag, carry groceries, have physical disability or are over 60 years old. They encourage jaywalking in the streets designated for high traffic. In the cities, they seem to be rarely in the place you'd want them, often being at a decent detour distance from the crossing corners.
        thaumasiotes 10y ago
        > They encourage jaywalking in the streets designated for high traffic. This is a very odd objection. Those streets are generally physically impassable for pedestrians, traffic or no.
        varjag 10y ago
        Perhaps if they are fenced. Otherwise I've seen people jaywalking near an underpass countless times. Across Eastern Europe, Norway, Taiwan, Spain, Italy..
- uola 10y ago
  To be clear, I'm taking about the peak of the urban village which isn't very representative of China as a whole. http://www.city-data.com/forum/world/1773063-top-10-densest-places-world-8.html http://www.city-data.com/forum/world/1773063-top-10-densest-... http://www.yi-may.com/THE-GREAT-MIGRATION http://www.yi-may.com/THE-GREAT-MIGRATION http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=56594707&postcount=3 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=56594707&postco... http://www.mascontext.com/issues/19-trace-fall-13/the-chengzhongcun-urban-traces-of-the-village/ http://www.mascontext.com/issues/19-trace-fall-13/the-chengz... http://popupcity.net/villages-in-the-city-a-guide-to-south-chinas-informal-settlements/ http://popupcity.net/villages-in-the-city-a-guide-to-south-c... http://densityatlas.org/casestudies/profile.php?id=61 http://densityatlas.org/casestudies/profile.php?id=61

Of course those streets are wide by (some) Chinese standards where they build entire blocks with 10+ story buildings meters apart.

by uola 10y ago

Of course those streets are wide by (some) Chinese standards where they build entire blocks with 10+ story buildings meters apart.

mikeash 10y ago

The Chinese cities I've visited (Beijing mostly, a little bit in Qingdao, Shanghai, and Suzhou) are full of gigantic streets. It's amazingly unfriendly for pedestrians, considering how many there are. Six lane roads are quite common, and the tight little streets shown in that article are reserved for the rare places which have avoided redevelopment due to tourist appeal or whatever. Between the huge streets and the crazy drivers, I really don't enjoy walking around. Typical American cities are much better in that respect, although many fewer Americans take advantage.

crdb 10y ago
Interesting, I have the opposite experience. I much prefer walking in streets designed by central planners to accommodate modern crowds (Singapore, central Beijing, central Chengdu...) than twisty narrow streets there for historical reasons (Hong Kong, especially the stretch from Central to Sheung Wan, especially on weekends; but also the "preserved" hutongs in Beijing). The reason is crowds: try walking through Sheung Wan, or Singapore's preserved shophouse streets in Chinatown, on a Sunday afternoon and see what average speed you achieve... And you can also spot crazy drivers better in a large, wide-roaded grid than round the corner of a hutong where you have to spot the direction of the rapidly approaching noise so you know which side to jump. Not to mention: the sun can actually shine if the roads are wide, in tight streets you are in the dark even at lunchtime. Smog is a problem which can be solved, as much of Europe and the US have demonstrated. China will eventually move industry out of the cities and drive with catalytic converters. Where tight streets might win is when they are coupled with a pedestrian area. "No cars" is still the most pleasant walking experience.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Some "preserved street" everybody visits is going to suck, sure. For something like that, more space is better. But if you go to one that isn't just a tourist attraction, they're very nice. For example, there's one I've been to a couple of times, I think it's Nanluogu, where the main street is unbelievably crowded but if you just hang a left or right, suddenly everything becomes fairly quiet and calm.
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
Beijing doesn't really have that many wide streets. The worst inside the 4th ring road is Chang'An Jie and a few streets inside 2nd ring that are mostly gov buildings, which just happens to be where all the tourists go. But a typical residents wouldn't encounter such streets every day or even every month. Even Zhongguancun DaJie is only really 4 lanes in most places, and even that is sky bridged crossing in many places.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
vacri 10y ago
The US is hostile to pedestrians. As a visitor a while, I had to be much more aware of drivers as I walked around, and two times (one in Texas, one in Cali), while crossing the road with the walk lights, I had to stop dead in my tracks or I would have literally walked into the side of a car turning in front of me. I felt safer jaywalking in NYC than crossing legally in some other cities, which was weird...
- mikeash 10y ago
  China would blow your mind, then. The concept of pedestrian right of way doesn't exist, not even when you have a clear walk signal. Cars will approach from left, right, front, and back, with no care in the world. You had to stop twice in your tracks to avoid a car turning in front of you? Try doing that multiple times every time you cross the street, all while checking both sides to make sure nobody flat-out runs you over.
thaumasiotes 10y ago
Shanghai has very narrow streets and very wide ones. That just depends where you are. Streets that for whatever reason can't be crossed by pedestrians are dealt with by having pedestrian underpasses or overpasses, though.
- varjag 10y ago
  Under/overpasses are still very pedestrian unfriendly.
  - thaumasiotes 10y ago
    How so? You can cross the street at any time you feel like it, with zero risk of being hit. In my experience they are vastly more pedestrian-friendly than crosswalks. What problem are you thinking of? The overpasses at lujiazui are very popular with tourists who want to pose in front of the pearl tower for a photo. Try that in the middle of a street.
    - varjag 10y ago
      Over/underpasses are extra physical effort, which quickly gets old when you pull that luggage bag, carry groceries, have physical disability or are over 60 years old. They encourage jaywalking in the streets designated for high traffic. In the cities, they seem to be rarely in the place you'd want them, often being at a decent detour distance from the crossing corners.
      - thaumasiotes 10y ago
        > They encourage jaywalking in the streets designated for high traffic. This is a very odd objection. Those streets are generally physically impassable for pedestrians, traffic or no.
        varjag 10y ago
        Perhaps if they are fenced. Otherwise I've seen people jaywalking near an underpass countless times. Across Eastern Europe, Norway, Taiwan, Spain, Italy..
uola 10y ago
To be clear, I'm taking about the peak of the urban village which isn't very representative of China as a whole. http://www.city-data.com/forum/world/1773063-top-10-densest-places-world-8.html http://www.city-data.com/forum/world/1773063-top-10-densest-... http://www.yi-may.com/THE-GREAT-MIGRATION http://www.yi-may.com/THE-GREAT-MIGRATION http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=56594707&postcount=3 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=56594707&postco... http://www.mascontext.com/issues/19-trace-fall-13/the-chengzhongcun-urban-traces-of-the-village/ http://www.mascontext.com/issues/19-trace-fall-13/the-chengz... http://popupcity.net/villages-in-the-city-a-guide-to-south-chinas-informal-settlements/ http://popupcity.net/villages-in-the-city-a-guide-to-south-c... http://densityatlas.org/casestudies/profile.php?id=61 http://densityatlas.org/casestudies/profile.php?id=61