4 ms·

He made GDP go up. The West has also spent the past decade and a half fawning over the genius of the Chinese Communist Party and the PLA for the same reason. L

by api 10y ago

He made GDP go up. The West has also spent the past decade and a half fawning over the genius of the Chinese Communist Party and the PLA for the same reason. Look into their glorious human rights record, or the level of inequality there for that matter. Makes the USA look like an egalitarian utopia. Dubai is another one. Look at those skyscrapers! What a dynamic economy! Never mind the slave labor and the caste system. I'd throw Singapore in too. They're nowhere near as bad as the PLA or Dubai in practice but they are essentially totalitarian at heart. But the numbers look good and the streets are clean so it's okay. Side note: One thing that's disillusioned me about libertarianism is that the past 30-ish years of history seem to have proven that capitalism and economic health are absolutely compatible with totalitarianism. IMHO the Randian notion that the two are at odds and that a dynamic economy requires freedom and justice has been empirically proven wrong. Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like?

iwwr 10y ago
>Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like? They work when they're sitting on a mountain of oil, or Singapore's equivalent: a shipping bottleneck. Sort-of, at some point corruption becomes intolerable, or the oil runs out (or becomes too cheap to pay for the oppression). That said, the Singapore comparison may be a little far-fetched, they resemble the West far more than the totalitarian Middle East states.
- madelinecameron 10y ago
  Pretty sure Singapore gives the death penalty to drug dealers. Maybe even drug users, but I do know at some point the minimum punishment for any drug dealing was death.
  - PopsiclePete 10y ago
    You're going to have to provide a lot more than that one example to show me that Singapore is a "totalitarian" state. Just recently the entire State of Louisiana's "Justice" system was shown to be in cahoots with the private prison industry, for example. And judging by the "Making a Murderer" documentary, our entire judicial process resembles a totalitarian police state circus much more than any other developed nation. Singapore is a "totalitarian" state? Fine, by your standards, the US is a 2nd rate Banana Republic.
DominikR 10y ago
The more your economy relies on creativity and education of the workforce the less productive a slave will become compared to a free man. So yes, economies relying on slave labor can outcompete our economies in sectors where masses of low skilled labor are required (because of the lower price), but once these economies move up and require highly skilled labor they'll usually get into trouble.
- api 10y ago
  There's an easy solution to that: create a caste system and ensure that knowledge workers (who are willing to tow the line) belong to the upper caste. Of course it's a Faustian bargain, but just make sure it's a cushy enough deal with the devil and nobody complains. It need not be codified into law. It can be accomplished by way of a severe wealth disparity, a glass ceiling, stratification of housing, stratification of education, etc., and a legal system that treats upper class people significantly better than lower class ones. Everyone is technically a citizen subject to the same laws but in practice a different set of laws apply to you based on your wealth, occupation, connections, and what neighborhood you live in. Edit: yes the US is a bit like this, but you can take it a lot further.
  - madelinecameron 10y ago
    Gosh, that sounds a really terrible place to live. So glad the US isn't like that...
  - hx87 10y ago
    > ensure that knowledge workers (who are willing to tow the line) If you're a semi-meritocratic secular authoritarian state like China that isn't too difficult. If you're a religious conservative authoritarian state, that's close to impossible. Knowledge workers are willing to live with authoritarianism as long as it doesn't overly restrict their personal lives and interactions, and religious conservatism is all about restricting personal lives and interactions.
  - infinite8s 10y ago
    That sounds like the world of Hunger Games.
methodover 10y ago
Libertarianism is first about freedom. It's in the fucking name. It's not about "economic growth." Obviously caste systems and totalitarianism are at ideological odds with libertarianism.

by api 10y ago

iwwr 10y ago

>Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like? They work when they're sitting on a mountain of oil, or Singapore's equivalent: a shipping bottleneck. Sort-of, at some point corruption becomes intolerable, or the oil runs out (or becomes too cheap to pay for the oppression). That said, the Singapore comparison may be a little far-fetched, they resemble the West far more than the totalitarian Middle East states.

madelinecameron 10y ago
Pretty sure Singapore gives the death penalty to drug dealers. Maybe even drug users, but I do know at some point the minimum punishment for any drug dealing was death.
- PopsiclePete 10y ago
  You're going to have to provide a lot more than that one example to show me that Singapore is a "totalitarian" state. Just recently the entire State of Louisiana's "Justice" system was shown to be in cahoots with the private prison industry, for example. And judging by the "Making a Murderer" documentary, our entire judicial process resembles a totalitarian police state circus much more than any other developed nation. Singapore is a "totalitarian" state? Fine, by your standards, the US is a 2nd rate Banana Republic.

DominikR 10y ago

The more your economy relies on creativity and education of the workforce the less productive a slave will become compared to a free man. So yes, economies relying on slave labor can outcompete our economies in sectors where masses of low skilled labor are required (because of the lower price), but once these economies move up and require highly skilled labor they'll usually get into trouble.

api 10y ago
There's an easy solution to that: create a caste system and ensure that knowledge workers (who are willing to tow the line) belong to the upper caste. Of course it's a Faustian bargain, but just make sure it's a cushy enough deal with the devil and nobody complains. It need not be codified into law. It can be accomplished by way of a severe wealth disparity, a glass ceiling, stratification of housing, stratification of education, etc., and a legal system that treats upper class people significantly better than lower class ones. Everyone is technically a citizen subject to the same laws but in practice a different set of laws apply to you based on your wealth, occupation, connections, and what neighborhood you live in. Edit: yes the US is a bit like this, but you can take it a lot further.
- madelinecameron 10y ago
  Gosh, that sounds a really terrible place to live. So glad the US isn't like that...
- hx87 10y ago
  > ensure that knowledge workers (who are willing to tow the line) If you're a semi-meritocratic secular authoritarian state like China that isn't too difficult. If you're a religious conservative authoritarian state, that's close to impossible. Knowledge workers are willing to live with authoritarianism as long as it doesn't overly restrict their personal lives and interactions, and religious conservatism is all about restricting personal lives and interactions.
- infinite8s 10y ago
  That sounds like the world of Hunger Games.

methodover 10y ago

Libertarianism is first about freedom. It's in the fucking name. It's not about "economic growth." Obviously caste systems and totalitarianism are at ideological odds with libertarianism.