4 ms·

"It's entirely legal ... We very much hope that the Chinese government respects our decision" Not much of a leg to stand on. I wouldn't want to be a Google emp

"It's entirely legal ... We very much hope that the Chinese government respects our decision" Not much of a leg to stand on. I wouldn't want to be a Google employee in China right now.

Spark23 17y ago
that's true, but in my opinion it's better than constantly caving in to censorship
potatolicious 17y ago
My main fear is that China will use this opportunity, as the Chinese proverb goes: "kill the rooster to warn the monkey" - i.e., arrest/charge a few higher-level Google China people (Chinese citizens, they won't touch Americans). Public opinion in China re: Google is very, very much sided with the Chinese government - people in general believe Google to be bullies pushing their American-style beliefs down their throats, and the people I've spoken to almost unanimously think that it's about damned time Google left China. If a few key people are arrested/charged for conspiring to violate the law, it would be a major PR victory for the PRC domestically ("government stands up to Western bullying tactics, no safe refuge for collaborators" and the such), not to mention potentially warding off other companies trying to make the same stand. Interesting times.
- garply 17y ago
  Where do you get this information about public opinion? My experience is that the white collar workers who use Google side with Google... and nobody else knows what Google is.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    I went to college with a large number of Chinese international students, my ex-gf was Chinese (and thus my circles are full of them), plus I am Chinese (well, Taiwanese, but shhh) Most internet users in China are well aware of who Google is - though Baidu still has a strong grip on the search industry than ol' Goog. The overwhelming opinion I got from the Chinese I know when this issue first surfaced in January was "good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out". Remember, the younger generation in China right now almost religiously, dogmatically believe in the party line. It's frightful.
    - garply 17y ago
      I live and run a business here in Beijing. The majority of my customers are young adult mainlanders (white collar, 18-35 years old) and my employees are mainlanders as well. Also my girlfriend of 6+ years. I don't find any of what you say to be true. Especially the part about religious and dogmatic belief in the party line - most of the Chinese I deal with find the gov't obnoxious and untrustworthy. Of course, that could vary with socioeconomic class, but even my relatively young workers, who are of a different social group than my customers, seem to feel that way as well (poison milk, bribery scandals, etc). In my experience, the people who are supportive of the party are usually older (40-50+). Odd that our experiences are so different, and I'm not sure where we'll be able to find objective data to resolve the differences in information.
      - potatolicious 17y ago
        I think the different experiences comes down to socioeconomic status - my impression comes from Chinese expats, in particular international students. This demographic is best summed up in a single word: "over-privileged" These are the direct beneficiaries of the current regime, and I even personally knew a couple whose parents were unabashedly in the bribery business. They all tow the party line something fierce... scary, especially since they're "destined" to be the Chinese leaders of tomorrow :S I'm glad to hear that "normal" Chinese aren't nearly as bad as the ones I've met. This gives me hope. About the poison milk/bribery stuff though: even the people I know don't agree with these things, and are more than willing to admit the government's failure in preventing these things. However, if you dare bring up Western-style agricultural/industrial policies as a means to mitigate this sort of thing, you are in for some major hostility. This may be unique to the demographic I talk to, but basically only they are allowed to criticize the Chinese government - if you represent some kind of western ideology you're frowned upon.
        garply 17y ago
        But I don't think it's an issue of socioeconomic status. My point in mentioning my business was that I need to understand my demographic very thoroughly (I work 7 days a week catering to their needs). Many of my customers have studied abroad and most of them work in the Central Business District here for large multinational corporations. My demographic also includes students at elite Chinese universities like Beida and Qinghua. And I have yet to encounter what you are describing among them. Maybe the closest is one guy who wanted to climb the CCP ranks to change all the problems he saw with the current system.
- zellux 17y ago
  I'm just wondering where you get this public opinion, which is quite different from what I heard. And I'm in Shanghai, China.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    See my other post below, but to add: A lot of what I'm basing this observation on is poking around in Xiaonei (Chinese Facebook knockoff), the chatter in there is alarmingly (and almost militaristic) anti-west. This may be because the part of the social graph I was looking at was mostly upper-class Chinese (being that my main "in" with the Chinese is international students/expats, who are much better off that most). It is likely (in fact, most probably) that the working class Chinese would have entirely different views.
    - chrischen 17y ago
      The wealthier off probably are more invested in their national identity.
    - c1sc0 17y ago
      Very interesting that you mention militaristic. Been observing similar attitudes and frankly it scares me.
      - lhuang 17y ago
        Just nationalism.... the tea baggers are just as vitriolic...
        potatolicious 17y ago
        Not sure why you got downvoted - I would say the comparison is apt. I've seen some disturbing things on Xiaonei, things like a map of the USA with a gigantic PRC flag sticking out of it, and other bits of aggressive nationalistic posturing.
  - Frazzydee 17y ago
liuliu 17y ago
Actually, it is not legal in terms of China law. The law requires any website, in mainland China or not, need to implement a process called beian (a licensing procedure and that is the reason why you can see ICP XXXXXX on any Chinese target website). It is a strong legal justification that gives local police the authority to block any foreign website at will. For a commercial website, the beian process will cost about $1000 dollars (you have to hire agency which has close connection to the Chinese government to do this) and any foreign website in principal cannot implement this process (it requires or in tradition only limited to the company that significant share (more than 50%) was hold by Chinese capital entities or individuals). Google.cn, prior to the announcement held a ICP licence from its local partner. Kaifu Lee did a lot work in the back scene that made the whole ICP transaction procedure OK to China government. For your curiosity, the local Chinese companies that were listed on NASDAQ all go with a mode in which the company that registered in China will hold the license and sign a contract with the offshore company that actually gets listed to guarantee the profit will go to the offshore company in order to mitigate the restrictions.
- bnomis 17y ago
  Beian http://www.miibeian.gov.cn/ http://www.miibeian.gov.cn/ only applies to servers inside of China. China law can't extend outside its borders. It is free to apply for a beian. CNNIC passed a rule at the end of last year that essentially means only companies registered in China can hold .cn domains http://www.cnnic.net.cn/html/Dir/2009/12/12/5750.htm http://www.cnnic.net.cn/html/Dir/2009/12/12/5750.htm You can host whatever TLD site you want in China (.com etc.) You just need to register it and get an ICP (beian). It's a form of publishing and all publishing is controlled. So why would you host in side of China? Speed. Traversing the GFW slows everything down.
  - liuliu 17y ago
    Based on the Internet Information Services Management Approach (http://www.cnnic.net.cn/html/Dir/2000/09/25/0652.htm http://www.cnnic.net.cn/html/Dir/2000/09/25/0652.htm), anyone who provide Internet information services in mainland China needs to beian (be careful about the word they use here. As long as you provide service to mainland China user, you have to). For non-commercial website, it is free. For commercial website, it is free for you to apply, but in practice, you have to hire an agency to get the licence. For those who are not Chinese native speakers, I use Google translate to give you the keywords: "Second, in the PRC engaged in Internet information service activities, must comply with these measures. "The term Internet information services, refer to Internet users through the Internet to provide information services activities."

"It's entirely legal ... We very much hope that the Chinese government respects our decision" Not much of a leg to stand on. I wouldn't want to be a Google employee in China right now.

Spark23 17y ago

that's true, but in my opinion it's better than constantly caving in to censorship

potatolicious 17y ago

My main fear is that China will use this opportunity, as the Chinese proverb goes: "kill the rooster to warn the monkey" - i.e., arrest/charge a few higher-level Google China people (Chinese citizens, they won't touch Americans). Public opinion in China re: Google is very, very much sided with the Chinese government - people in general believe Google to be bullies pushing their American-style beliefs down their throats, and the people I've spoken to almost unanimously think that it's about damned time Google left China. If a few key people are arrested/charged for conspiring to violate the law, it would be a major PR victory for the PRC domestically ("government stands up to Western bullying tactics, no safe refuge for collaborators" and the such), not to mention potentially warding off other companies trying to make the same stand. Interesting times.

garply 17y ago
Where do you get this information about public opinion? My experience is that the white collar workers who use Google side with Google... and nobody else knows what Google is.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  I went to college with a large number of Chinese international students, my ex-gf was Chinese (and thus my circles are full of them), plus I am Chinese (well, Taiwanese, but shhh) Most internet users in China are well aware of who Google is - though Baidu still has a strong grip on the search industry than ol' Goog. The overwhelming opinion I got from the Chinese I know when this issue first surfaced in January was "good riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out". Remember, the younger generation in China right now almost religiously, dogmatically believe in the party line. It's frightful.
  - garply 17y ago
    I live and run a business here in Beijing. The majority of my customers are young adult mainlanders (white collar, 18-35 years old) and my employees are mainlanders as well. Also my girlfriend of 6+ years. I don't find any of what you say to be true. Especially the part about religious and dogmatic belief in the party line - most of the Chinese I deal with find the gov't obnoxious and untrustworthy. Of course, that could vary with socioeconomic class, but even my relatively young workers, who are of a different social group than my customers, seem to feel that way as well (poison milk, bribery scandals, etc). In my experience, the people who are supportive of the party are usually older (40-50+). Odd that our experiences are so different, and I'm not sure where we'll be able to find objective data to resolve the differences in information.
    - potatolicious 17y ago
      I think the different experiences comes down to socioeconomic status - my impression comes from Chinese expats, in particular international students. This demographic is best summed up in a single word: "over-privileged" These are the direct beneficiaries of the current regime, and I even personally knew a couple whose parents were unabashedly in the bribery business. They all tow the party line something fierce... scary, especially since they're "destined" to be the Chinese leaders of tomorrow :S I'm glad to hear that "normal" Chinese aren't nearly as bad as the ones I've met. This gives me hope. About the poison milk/bribery stuff though: even the people I know don't agree with these things, and are more than willing to admit the government's failure in preventing these things. However, if you dare bring up Western-style agricultural/industrial policies as a means to mitigate this sort of thing, you are in for some major hostility. This may be unique to the demographic I talk to, but basically only they are allowed to criticize the Chinese government - if you represent some kind of western ideology you're frowned upon.
      - garply 17y ago
        But I don't think it's an issue of socioeconomic status. My point in mentioning my business was that I need to understand my demographic very thoroughly (I work 7 days a week catering to their needs). Many of my customers have studied abroad and most of them work in the Central Business District here for large multinational corporations. My demographic also includes students at elite Chinese universities like Beida and Qinghua. And I have yet to encounter what you are describing among them. Maybe the closest is one guy who wanted to climb the CCP ranks to change all the problems he saw with the current system.
zellux 17y ago
I'm just wondering where you get this public opinion, which is quite different from what I heard. And I'm in Shanghai, China.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  See my other post below, but to add: A lot of what I'm basing this observation on is poking around in Xiaonei (Chinese Facebook knockoff), the chatter in there is alarmingly (and almost militaristic) anti-west. This may be because the part of the social graph I was looking at was mostly upper-class Chinese (being that my main "in" with the Chinese is international students/expats, who are much better off that most). It is likely (in fact, most probably) that the working class Chinese would have entirely different views.
  - chrischen 17y ago
    The wealthier off probably are more invested in their national identity.
  - c1sc0 17y ago
    Very interesting that you mention militaristic. Been observing similar attitudes and frankly it scares me.
    - lhuang 17y ago
      Just nationalism.... the tea baggers are just as vitriolic...
      - potatolicious 17y ago
        Not sure why you got downvoted - I would say the comparison is apt. I've seen some disturbing things on Xiaonei, things like a map of the USA with a gigantic PRC flag sticking out of it, and other bits of aggressive nationalistic posturing.
- Frazzydee 17y ago

liuliu 17y ago

Actually, it is not legal in terms of China law. The law requires any website, in mainland China or not, need to implement a process called beian (a licensing procedure and that is the reason why you can see ICP XXXXXX on any Chinese target website). It is a strong legal justification that gives local police the authority to block any foreign website at will. For a commercial website, the beian process will cost about $1000 dollars (you have to hire agency which has close connection to the Chinese government to do this) and any foreign website in principal cannot implement this process (it requires or in tradition only limited to the company that significant share (more than 50%) was hold by Chinese capital entities or individuals). Google.cn, prior to the announcement held a ICP licence from its local partner. Kaifu Lee did a lot work in the back scene that made the whole ICP transaction procedure OK to China government. For your curiosity, the local Chinese companies that were listed on NASDAQ all go with a mode in which the company that registered in China will hold the license and sign a contract with the offshore company that actually gets listed to guarantee the profit will go to the offshore company in order to mitigate the restrictions.

bnomis 17y ago
Beian http://www.miibeian.gov.cn/ http://www.miibeian.gov.cn/ only applies to servers inside of China. China law can't extend outside its borders. It is free to apply for a beian. CNNIC passed a rule at the end of last year that essentially means only companies registered in China can hold .cn domains http://www.cnnic.net.cn/html/Dir/2009/12/12/5750.htm http://www.cnnic.net.cn/html/Dir/2009/12/12/5750.htm You can host whatever TLD site you want in China (.com etc.) You just need to register it and get an ICP (beian). It's a form of publishing and all publishing is controlled. So why would you host in side of China? Speed. Traversing the GFW slows everything down.
- liuliu 17y ago
  Based on the Internet Information Services Management Approach (http://www.cnnic.net.cn/html/Dir/2000/09/25/0652.htm http://www.cnnic.net.cn/html/Dir/2000/09/25/0652.htm), anyone who provide Internet information services in mainland China needs to beian (be careful about the word they use here. As long as you provide service to mainland China user, you have to). For non-commercial website, it is free. For commercial website, it is free for you to apply, but in practice, you have to hire an agency to get the licence. For those who are not Chinese native speakers, I use Google translate to give you the keywords: "Second, in the PRC engaged in Internet information service activities, must comply with these measures. "The term Internet information services, refer to Internet users through the Internet to provide information services activities."