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How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment". They've basically turned their culture

by ZainRiz 10y ago

How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment". They've basically turned their culture into a new religion

oblio 10y ago
You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?
- ZainRiz 10y ago
  I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?
  - Shinkei 10y ago
    Culture can be affected by draconian laws also. I believe religious clothing designed to oppress women is regressive and detrimental to Democracy. Please read this: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/sep/03/hengameh-golestans-best-photograph-iranian-women-rebel-against-the-1979-hijab-law https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/sep/03/hengame...
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      That's funny that you mention democracy and oppression of women. Ancient Greeks of Athens and the other city states kept their women cloistered out of public. Women had no rights and were basically chattel in these societies. Democracy is like technology, morally neutral yet capable of great good or terrible inhumanity.
      - Shinkei 10y ago
        Fair enough. I agree on both points. But my point was not that one system is 'better' or 'worse' but that religious head-wear should not be seen as some inalienable right that we have to accommodate to remain a free society. Even if many young Iranian women may feel 'naked' without it, it only took the religious dictators there one generation to make them forget how it used to be.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    While I don't agree with the French approach of regulating dress, one of their arguments is that you do affect other people with your choice of how to dress, and that people should not have to be subjected to certain overt expressions of religion in certain contexts, with schools being a particularly sensitive topic because of their position in passing on the ideals of the republic. I think they go way too far, and a that some of it is bigotry hiding behind the excuse of secularism, but it illustrates that determining what sufficiently negatively "affects others" to be worth sanction can be used to reach widely different conclusions..
    - king_phil 10y ago
      That means if I am a pastafarian (Google it if you don't know it - and yes, at least in Germany it is a approved religion) I can't put a noodle riddle on my head (because it is religious clothing for pastafarians) - or can NOBODY, just because it is religious clothing? And yes, you might not believe it, but in Germany there is a ruling that you are allowed to take your passport photo with a noodle riddle on your head because it is your religious headwear... I think we should throw all this religion in the toilet and flush.
      - vidarh 10y ago
        The starting point of this in France is the idea that we should throw all this religion in the toilet and flush. The principle governing French secularism - laïcité [1] - has its origin in freeing people from being subjected to the influence of the Catholic church. It's a such a direct reaction to religion being pushed onto people in the public sphere by putting in place restrictions aimed at severely curtailing religious influence in government and education. In this context, it's worth noting that Turkish secularism was explicitly modelled by Ataturk on French laïcité. E.g. Turkey, like France, is constitutionally a secular republic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9
  - gameofdrones 10y ago
    French culture has some inconsistent, fascist, illiberalisms, especially in the differences of making fun of Christianity vs. making fun of Judaism, or similarly with Christianity vs. Islam. (govt demanding firing of Sine). Actual progressive liberalism should at least include listening to other viewpoints, being open to new ideas and generally being sensible and constructive. But narrow, identity-politics labels aren't all that useful in reality and end up inventing wedge-issues and false dichotomies. (There are some people looking for common ground while others are looking for Sayre's law fights.) Je suis Charlie
    - selimthegrim 10y ago
      Sine was basically implying the religion was nothing but a tool of social climbing in that particular case. That's just an incredibly nasty, low and personal thing.
  - fsaneq2 10y ago
    Having been brought up in a French system and then going to a US college, I must say I strongly prefer the French system. I guess Americans would take offense to this view, but I find wearing religious clothing in a public institution such as a school incredibly obnoxious and pushy -- it's akin to your professor suddenly starting to push his/her political views onto you in an unrelated lecture, or something. It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda.
    - kiba 10y ago
      It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda. As an American, I think of nothing when people wear hijab or whatever, and trust me, I am an atheist who think religion is irrational and that humanity would be better off without it. Maybe the French would be better off thinking nothing of it when someone wears religious clothing, just as we are starting to think nothing of it when people are gay or transgender or whatever.
      - fsaneq2 10y ago
        I think the difference is that the French perceive obvious religious clothing similarly to someone wearing a T-shirt saying "I vote republican/democrat" in huge letters -- though I don't know, maybe that'd be considered fine too in the US (US schools, that is)? I see it as clearly unnecessary/voluntary (so it's quite different from being gay like in your example), so it's an attempt to advertise, which leaves a bad taste in a place like a school.
        learc83 10y ago
        Yes. A Shirt that says "I vote Republican/Democrat" would be perfectly acceptable in most places in America. You'd get a bit of flack if you wore a conservative shirt in an extremely liberal environment and vice versa.
      - tcoppi 10y ago
- ErrantX 10y ago
  > You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering Now; I disapprove of forcing women to wear that sort of dress on religious grounds. In fact, I find it obnoxious (although, aside, Western society seems to expect women to wear makeup and look "good" at all times... so are we any better?). However, I'm not sure banning the dress is a good solution - akin to punishing the victim...
  - mnbcvx 10y ago
    Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and as a poster below pointed out, feel naked in your new school.
    - trizic 10y ago
      Perhaps the idea could be seen differently not as a ban but an enforcement of anonymity. Like its hard for me to judge you based on your username (depends on the username), but if we had profile pictures that wouldn't be the case. I don't really agree with France on this, but could the ban have positive effects by reducing prejudice by anonymity (look at this person vs. look at this muslim person) vs teaching tolerance.
      - mnbcvx 10y ago
        For most Muslim immigrants, their facial features and skin color are probably as much an indicator of their background as a head dress, not to mention things like accent that will ultimately give someone away. I really don't buy any argument for these policies. Being realistic, it was definitely a move to antagonize the Muslim population in France.
Dagwoodie 10y ago
How is your anti-type of liberalism any different from how non-liberals are treated in western countries? Non-liberals are increasingly not tolerated by liberals (see recent SJW issues) the world over and increasingly face heavy fines/punishment if they don't follow the liberal culture.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  I think you're using the common US political definition of "liberal" (which is close to a synonym for "progressive" or often even just "Democrat"), whereas at least to the point of your grandparent comment, my interpretation is that the definition being used is more like "classical liberalism"[0]. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but this is a common and unfortunate confusion that makes these conversations extremely muddy. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12104519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12104519 and marked it off-topic.

by ZainRiz 10y ago

How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment". They've basically turned their culture into a new religion

oblio 10y ago

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

ZainRiz 10y ago
I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?
- Shinkei 10y ago
  Culture can be affected by draconian laws also. I believe religious clothing designed to oppress women is regressive and detrimental to Democracy. Please read this: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/sep/03/hengameh-golestans-best-photograph-iranian-women-rebel-against-the-1979-hijab-law https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/sep/03/hengame...
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    That's funny that you mention democracy and oppression of women. Ancient Greeks of Athens and the other city states kept their women cloistered out of public. Women had no rights and were basically chattel in these societies. Democracy is like technology, morally neutral yet capable of great good or terrible inhumanity.
    - Shinkei 10y ago
      Fair enough. I agree on both points. But my point was not that one system is 'better' or 'worse' but that religious head-wear should not be seen as some inalienable right that we have to accommodate to remain a free society. Even if many young Iranian women may feel 'naked' without it, it only took the religious dictators there one generation to make them forget how it used to be.
- vidarh 10y ago
  While I don't agree with the French approach of regulating dress, one of their arguments is that you do affect other people with your choice of how to dress, and that people should not have to be subjected to certain overt expressions of religion in certain contexts, with schools being a particularly sensitive topic because of their position in passing on the ideals of the republic. I think they go way too far, and a that some of it is bigotry hiding behind the excuse of secularism, but it illustrates that determining what sufficiently negatively "affects others" to be worth sanction can be used to reach widely different conclusions..
  - king_phil 10y ago
    That means if I am a pastafarian (Google it if you don't know it - and yes, at least in Germany it is a approved religion) I can't put a noodle riddle on my head (because it is religious clothing for pastafarians) - or can NOBODY, just because it is religious clothing? And yes, you might not believe it, but in Germany there is a ruling that you are allowed to take your passport photo with a noodle riddle on your head because it is your religious headwear... I think we should throw all this religion in the toilet and flush.
    - vidarh 10y ago
      The starting point of this in France is the idea that we should throw all this religion in the toilet and flush. The principle governing French secularism - laïcité [1] - has its origin in freeing people from being subjected to the influence of the Catholic church. It's a such a direct reaction to religion being pushed onto people in the public sphere by putting in place restrictions aimed at severely curtailing religious influence in government and education. In this context, it's worth noting that Turkish secularism was explicitly modelled by Ataturk on French laïcité. E.g. Turkey, like France, is constitutionally a secular republic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9
- gameofdrones 10y ago
  French culture has some inconsistent, fascist, illiberalisms, especially in the differences of making fun of Christianity vs. making fun of Judaism, or similarly with Christianity vs. Islam. (govt demanding firing of Sine). Actual progressive liberalism should at least include listening to other viewpoints, being open to new ideas and generally being sensible and constructive. But narrow, identity-politics labels aren't all that useful in reality and end up inventing wedge-issues and false dichotomies. (There are some people looking for common ground while others are looking for Sayre's law fights.) Je suis Charlie
  - selimthegrim 10y ago
    Sine was basically implying the religion was nothing but a tool of social climbing in that particular case. That's just an incredibly nasty, low and personal thing.
- fsaneq2 10y ago
  Having been brought up in a French system and then going to a US college, I must say I strongly prefer the French system. I guess Americans would take offense to this view, but I find wearing religious clothing in a public institution such as a school incredibly obnoxious and pushy -- it's akin to your professor suddenly starting to push his/her political views onto you in an unrelated lecture, or something. It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda.
  - kiba 10y ago
    It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda. As an American, I think of nothing when people wear hijab or whatever, and trust me, I am an atheist who think religion is irrational and that humanity would be better off without it. Maybe the French would be better off thinking nothing of it when someone wears religious clothing, just as we are starting to think nothing of it when people are gay or transgender or whatever.
    - fsaneq2 10y ago
      I think the difference is that the French perceive obvious religious clothing similarly to someone wearing a T-shirt saying "I vote republican/democrat" in huge letters -- though I don't know, maybe that'd be considered fine too in the US (US schools, that is)? I see it as clearly unnecessary/voluntary (so it's quite different from being gay like in your example), so it's an attempt to advertise, which leaves a bad taste in a place like a school.
      - learc83 10y ago
        Yes. A Shirt that says "I vote Republican/Democrat" would be perfectly acceptable in most places in America. You'd get a bit of flack if you wore a conservative shirt in an extremely liberal environment and vice versa.
    - tcoppi 10y ago
ErrantX 10y ago
> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering Now; I disapprove of forcing women to wear that sort of dress on religious grounds. In fact, I find it obnoxious (although, aside, Western society seems to expect women to wear makeup and look "good" at all times... so are we any better?). However, I'm not sure banning the dress is a good solution - akin to punishing the victim...
- mnbcvx 10y ago
  Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and as a poster below pointed out, feel naked in your new school.
  - trizic 10y ago
    Perhaps the idea could be seen differently not as a ban but an enforcement of anonymity. Like its hard for me to judge you based on your username (depends on the username), but if we had profile pictures that wouldn't be the case. I don't really agree with France on this, but could the ban have positive effects by reducing prejudice by anonymity (look at this person vs. look at this muslim person) vs teaching tolerance.
    - mnbcvx 10y ago
      For most Muslim immigrants, their facial features and skin color are probably as much an indicator of their background as a head dress, not to mention things like accent that will ultimately give someone away. I really don't buy any argument for these policies. Being realistic, it was definitely a move to antagonize the Muslim population in France.

Dagwoodie 10y ago

How is your anti-type of liberalism any different from how non-liberals are treated in western countries? Non-liberals are increasingly not tolerated by liberals (see recent SJW issues) the world over and increasingly face heavy fines/punishment if they don't follow the liberal culture.

sanderjd 10y ago
I think you're using the common US political definition of "liberal" (which is close to a synonym for "progressive" or often even just "Democrat"), whereas at least to the point of your grandparent comment, my interpretation is that the definition being used is more like "classical liberalism"[0]. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but this is a common and unfortunate confusion that makes these conversations extremely muddy. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12104519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12104519 and marked it off-topic.