5 ms·

The L.E.D. Quandry: Why There's No Such Thing As “Built To Last”

52 points by djrogers 10y ago

djrogers 10y ago
It makes sense that an eternal LED would be a financial problem to sell, but I had no idea that the original lightbulb makers colluded a century ago to set lightbulb life to 1000 hours! really interesting story. Also, as a Livermoron (I prefer that to the Livermoran ref'd in the article) I'm always excited to see our little lightbulb in the spotlight (pun intended).
DanBC 10y ago
> Had you plugged in a typical drugstore incandescent on January 1st of this year and left it on full time, it would likely have died by around February 12th. These bulbs commonly burn for about a thousand hours, or approximately half as long as the average bulb did in the early nineteen-twenties. Are those "always on" hours, or "typical use" hours which include turning on and off? Lightbulbs are sensitive to thermal shock, and there's obviously a lot of that when you turn them on from cold.
- theandrewbailey 10y ago
  I read that as 24/7 continual always on operation. It makes sense to me: a lightbulb that doesn't last 2 months is highly suspicious and unusual to me.
beamatronic 10y ago
About two years ago I purchased a number of Cree 60 watt LED bulbs. I was impressed by the build quality and light quality of the bulbs. These bulbs were touted as lasting 15-20 years. I write the current date on the bulb when I install one. In my experience these bulbs have been lasting about 2-3 years. I don't think the LED itself fails, I think it is the power supply integrated into the bulb. Cree customer service has been great, I can just return the bulbs for a replacement at any Home Depot.
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y ago
  It's almost certainly the power supply. Most consist of just a bridge rectifier and capacitive dropper, some of which are so bad as to negate some of the advantages of the LED's efficiency. Poor design and cheap components are the norm, so you get lots of failed diodes and capacitors. They also have terrible power factor, though that isn't much of a concern for consumers.
- jpeg_hero 10y ago
  Yep, similar experience here with my first led lightbulb (Phillips). I wrote the date on the bulb fully expecting to laugh when I had to throw it out 20-30 years hence. You know the punchline-> dead in two years :(
jseliger 10y ago
I'm glad to see this article make the frontpage! I left this comment when I originally submitted: Incidentally, Unicomp produces modern Model M keyboards, which are a cult favorite among hackers and writers (http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40P4A http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40P4A). But that company has a similar problem: Model Ms in general, and the keyboards it sells, can last for decades—which means that their revenue stream is tiny, because customers don't need to replace their keyboards. I used one for a couple years (see here: https://jakeseliger.com/2009/01/31/ibm-model-m-unicomp-customizer-keyboard-update-mac-edition/ https://jakeseliger.com/2009/01/31/ibm-model-m-unicomp-custo...) and only switched because I was having some wrist pain and tried a Kinesis Advantage instead. Which has in turn outlasted several computers.
mc32 10y ago
This part was really interesting: "Giles Slade, in his book “Made to Break,” traces the term “planned obsolescence” to a 1932 pamphlet, circulated in New York, titled “Ending the Depression through Planned Obsolescence.” The term gained currency in 1936, through a similarly themed essay in Printer’s Ink, “Outmoded Durability: If Merchandise Does Not Wear Out Faster, Factories Will Be Idle, People Unemployed.” I think it's interesting that people thought up the idea of planned obsolescence as a way to crawl out of the Great Depression. It wasn't seen as a bad thing to make things disposable but a good thing to help the working class of the time. Good. But that bring up something else. What kind of instrument will people think up so as to allow people to be useful (productive) in a society that can automate most tasks and put a great many people in the developed world (and possibly the majority of people in the undeveloped world). I mean, people had the best of intentions in mind when they came up with those ideas --which we now see as wasteful and look at with chagrin.
glasz 10y ago
remember, folks, there's no such thing like planned obsolescence! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
orf 10y ago
> And so, one of its priorities was to depress lamp life, to a thousand-hour standard. "Just let the market decide"
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
OrwellianChild 10y ago
It is fascinating to imagine lightbulb manufacturers deliberately handicapping the durability of their products. Surely this flies in the face of fair competition... Still, I'm confused about the counter-proposals mentioned. What does the article mean when it says that there isn't a viable business model for durable products like LED lights? Surely, demand could be supported by a short-term boom in supply followed by a much smaller maintenance-level manufacturing effort? Why can't we be satisfied with this outcome, rather than trying to engineer for people to pay taxes or extra cost like Cooper suggests?
eip 10y ago
I just replaced three flat ceiling mounted LED lights that I would have expected to last much longer than they did. The crappy power adapter they come with was putting out 5v more than it is supposed to. It was consistent on all the lights so I assume it was done on purpose to burn them out. There is probably money to be made selling adapters that output the correct voltage.
- cwillu 10y ago
  Two things: if you weren't measuring the output voltage under load, then you weren't measuring anything terribly useful. Second: LED's are typically constant current devices. If they don't receive a _minimum_ voltage, they just won't light up at all, but if they do, and the current is regulated properly, then the exact voltage doesn't matter (or rather, is a function of the LED's demand, not the supply).

52 points by djrogers 10y ago

It makes sense that an eternal LED would be a financial problem to sell, but I had no idea that the original lightbulb makers colluded a century ago to set lightbulb life to 1000 hours! really interesting story. Also, as a Livermoron (I prefer that to the Livermoran ref'd in the article) I'm always excited to see our little lightbulb in the spotlight (pun intended).

DanBC 10y ago

> Had you plugged in a typical drugstore incandescent on January 1st of this year and left it on full time, it would likely have died by around February 12th. These bulbs commonly burn for about a thousand hours, or approximately half as long as the average bulb did in the early nineteen-twenties. Are those "always on" hours, or "typical use" hours which include turning on and off? Lightbulbs are sensitive to thermal shock, and there's obviously a lot of that when you turn them on from cold.

theandrewbailey 10y ago
I read that as 24/7 continual always on operation. It makes sense to me: a lightbulb that doesn't last 2 months is highly suspicious and unusual to me.

beamatronic 10y ago

About two years ago I purchased a number of Cree 60 watt LED bulbs. I was impressed by the build quality and light quality of the bulbs. These bulbs were touted as lasting 15-20 years. I write the current date on the bulb when I install one. In my experience these bulbs have been lasting about 2-3 years. I don't think the LED itself fails, I think it is the power supply integrated into the bulb. Cree customer service has been great, I can just return the bulbs for a replacement at any Home Depot.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y ago
It's almost certainly the power supply. Most consist of just a bridge rectifier and capacitive dropper, some of which are so bad as to negate some of the advantages of the LED's efficiency. Poor design and cheap components are the norm, so you get lots of failed diodes and capacitors. They also have terrible power factor, though that isn't much of a concern for consumers.
jpeg_hero 10y ago
Yep, similar experience here with my first led lightbulb (Phillips). I wrote the date on the bulb fully expecting to laugh when I had to throw it out 20-30 years hence. You know the punchline-> dead in two years :(

jseliger 10y ago

I'm glad to see this article make the frontpage! I left this comment when I originally submitted: Incidentally, Unicomp produces modern Model M keyboards, which are a cult favorite among hackers and writers (http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40P4A http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40P4A). But that company has a similar problem: Model Ms in general, and the keyboards it sells, can last for decades—which means that their revenue stream is tiny, because customers don't need to replace their keyboards. I used one for a couple years (see here: https://jakeseliger.com/2009/01/31/ibm-model-m-unicomp-customizer-keyboard-update-mac-edition/ https://jakeseliger.com/2009/01/31/ibm-model-m-unicomp-custo...) and only switched because I was having some wrist pain and tried a Kinesis Advantage instead. Which has in turn outlasted several computers.

mc32 10y ago

This part was really interesting: "Giles Slade, in his book “Made to Break,” traces the term “planned obsolescence” to a 1932 pamphlet, circulated in New York, titled “Ending the Depression through Planned Obsolescence.” The term gained currency in 1936, through a similarly themed essay in Printer’s Ink, “Outmoded Durability: If Merchandise Does Not Wear Out Faster, Factories Will Be Idle, People Unemployed.” I think it's interesting that people thought up the idea of planned obsolescence as a way to crawl out of the Great Depression. It wasn't seen as a bad thing to make things disposable but a good thing to help the working class of the time. Good. But that bring up something else. What kind of instrument will people think up so as to allow people to be useful (productive) in a society that can automate most tasks and put a great many people in the developed world (and possibly the majority of people in the undeveloped world). I mean, people had the best of intentions in mind when they came up with those ideas --which we now see as wasteful and look at with chagrin.

glasz 10y ago

remember, folks, there's no such thing like planned obsolescence! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

orf 10y ago

> And so, one of its priorities was to depress lamp life, to a thousand-hour standard. "Just let the market decide"

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

OrwellianChild 10y ago

It is fascinating to imagine lightbulb manufacturers deliberately handicapping the durability of their products. Surely this flies in the face of fair competition... Still, I'm confused about the counter-proposals mentioned. What does the article mean when it says that there isn't a viable business model for durable products like LED lights? Surely, demand could be supported by a short-term boom in supply followed by a much smaller maintenance-level manufacturing effort? Why can't we be satisfied with this outcome, rather than trying to engineer for people to pay taxes or extra cost like Cooper suggests?

eip 10y ago

I just replaced three flat ceiling mounted LED lights that I would have expected to last much longer than they did. The crappy power adapter they come with was putting out 5v more than it is supposed to. It was consistent on all the lights so I assume it was done on purpose to burn them out. There is probably money to be made selling adapters that output the correct voltage.

cwillu 10y ago
Two things: if you weren't measuring the output voltage under load, then you weren't measuring anything terribly useful. Second: LED's are typically constant current devices. If they don't receive a _minimum_ voltage, they just won't light up at all, but if they do, and the current is regulated properly, then the exact voltage doesn't matter (or rather, is a function of the LED's demand, not the supply).