7 ms·

What you've written is pretty much nothing like what the author is talking about. > I feel awkward when people talk about sports You don't like talking about

What you've written is pretty much nothing like what the author is talking about. > I feel awkward when people talk about sports You don't like talking about sports, but it's a topic of conversation, because by and large many people in the US like sports. That is different than assuming you must be an athlete because of the color of your skin (racism). > Even as a middle-aged guy, I sometimes feel that the seat next to me is the one people are avoiding. For whatever reason, sometimes people don't take the empty seat next to you. That reason isn't because the color of your skin. > And I've definitely seen moms grab their little girl and march away when I smile at them Yes, this is something all men should be aware of. Don't act creepy to little kids. Parents typically do not spirit away their kids when adults simply smile at their children. Something other than your smile is causing that parent. > I'm sad that we're in a position where racial bias seems a reasonable default explanation for such things. At the risk of telling you how to feel, how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism. > At the end of the day, I think the only way to get past this is for everyone to be color blind. We need to guard against acting out of bias. I disagree with the first part, but agree with the second. A persons skin color is part of their identity, and we should recognize that, but not use that as a way to group, categorize, or otherwise use as the basis for how we behave towards that individual. We should also be aware that it's human nature to feel defensive against those that are different from us, and to not give into that behavior.

mhenr18 10y ago
> A persons skin color is part of their identity Unless they're white, at which point they get shunned if they even try to embrace that part of their identity. If a black man says he's proud to be black, that's perfectly fine. If a white man says he's proud to be white, people think "what's wrong with being any other skin color?"
- balls187 10y ago
  I think you've missed the point about racial identity. White people do get to embrace their identity, but how it's how they do it that matters. "White pride", for better or worse, is closely linked to "white supremacy." That is different than, https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/ https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/ which embraces and celebrates "white" culture, without demonizing other cultures.
  - nitwit005 10y ago
    I've yet to see an example of anyone seriously celebrating being white in some way that wasn't automatically being treated as racist. Things like what you link seem to get a pass because it's somewhat satirical in nature.
    - balls187 10y ago
      How would you celebrate white culture?
      - nitwit005 10y ago
        Type "celebration of black" into Google, look at the auto-complete results. Imagine those things, but with black flipped to white.
        balls187 10y ago
        That sort of celebration happens defacto. I guess you prefer it to be called out explicitly? Or when you were in grade school, did you only learn about ["black","asian","latino"] authors, musicians, scholars, scientists, inventors, actors, etc etc?
        mc32 10y ago
        It depends what country you went to school in. So, yes, there are quite a few places where you will get only "["black","asian","latino"] authors, musicians, scholars, scientists, inventors, actors" till you get to university and get exposed to more. I mean, you don't think in Columbia, or Ukraine or the Philippines you'll read much American authors, musicians, scholars, scientists, inventors, actors, etc., other than those part of the global patrimony?
        balls187 10y ago
        This entire thread is about the US.
- drumdance 10y ago
  Being "proud to be white" is meaningless. Being proud to be Irish or Italian or German is not.
  - mhenr18 10y ago
    If I'm born in my Australia, and my parents were, and their parents were, and their parents were, I'm not Irish or Italian or German or whatever majority-white European country you want to pick that I have a vague connection to. I'm Australian. The same applies to the Aboriginal people who have been here for thousands and thousands of years, before my ancestors invaded under a false pretense and treated them like garbage. However, those were my ancestors. Each generation is progressively less racist than the one before, and we're just as Australian as each other. The issue is not one of national identity but one of racial and cultural identity. Realistically, it's something that white people will have to put up with and understand as we're still in the long hangover of our more racist years. However, at some point our children (or our children's children) are going to ask why it's it's socially fine to embrace other races and cultures when it's shunned to embrace their own for reasons that are totally out of their control.
facepalm 10y ago
> At the risk of telling you how to feel, how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism. Both can be true - racism surely exists, and that is sad. But people attributing things to their race or sex that are not actually caused by their race or sex can also be quite tragic and self-defeating. My impression is that it happens a lot, at least with feminists - I have less experience with the issue of race (not living in the US).
- balls187 10y ago
  > But people attributing things to their race or sex that are not actually caused by their race or sex can also be quite tragic and self-defeating. I was at AWS re:Invent last year and had heard that a PagerDuty was having a party, and that we (a customers of theirs) could stop by their booth and pick up a wristband for VIP access. I stood behind a couple of my coworkers, who walked up, got wristbands and left. When it was my turn, I asked, but was turned away saying they are only handing out a limited number of wristbands. I explained I was a customer, and she had just given two wrists bands just seconds earlier to my coworkers, but she was very adamant about not letting me have one. I went to my room and angrily penned an email to our rep, asking why I wasn't given a band, when my two white coworkers were. Their response was that they only had a limited number of bands. The people working the booth were using their own judgement for who should get one and who shouldn't. At that moment, I wasn't Alan, director of engineer, an attendee of a poor public school system, the first in his family to graduate from high school (let along college). Instead I was just some brown guy who wasn't worth anything. In that moment, it made me remember my most painful memory of racism: when I was 14 years old, and having to comfort my mom as she cried because her boss denied her vacation time, then approved another of her coworkers vacation, despite my mother having more seniority, and having submitted her vacation first. The point of my story: if you've never really been a victim of racism, it's probably hard to understand why those of us who have been living with constant racism, turn to it first as a reason for how we are treated.
  - webXL 10y ago
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most white people are afraid of being labeled a racist, especially white people selling something. Why don't you use that to your advantage? As director of engineering, I'm sure you can vote with your company's dollars. The beauty of capitalism is that the overtly racist company is only going to get money from overt racists. Companies that want to do well don't treat people like that. Not to diminish all the hurtful discrimination certain groups of people face, but I'm not sad that the New Black Panthers probably don't want me in their club, and neo-nazis for that matter, but I don't think those clubs should be outlawed. People like you and me just say fuck'em and find places that make us better people. Doesn't sound like PagerDuty is that place. Their loss.
jonahx 10y ago
> Yes, this is something all men should be aware of. Don't act creepy to little kids. I was the same way, until I had a kid of my own. You're better off smiling at the mom first, before making gestures toward small children. This may be good practical advice, but it's worth comparing your suggestion to this quote from the piece: I would say things like, “oh, well I understand that I’m a big, Black guy, and that if I don’t shave for a few weeks and walked down the street at night, I’d probably be afraid of me, too.... what?” That is, you're suggesting it's the parent's responsibility to cater other people's fears of him. Yet I assume you would not make the same suggestion to the author of the piece? Is there a fundamental difference? What about if a mother grabs her child as a big black man walks past? Is that okay, because her justified fear of men (white and black) around her child over-rides any implications of racism? Or is it not allowed, because of the suggestion of racism (even though race is not, in fact, the motivator of her fear in this case)?
- balls187 10y ago
  > Yes, this is something all men should be aware of. Don't act creepy to little kids. I was the same way, until I had a kid of my own. Let me clarify this statement a bit: before having a kid, I was mindful of how I interacted with strangers and their children. > Is that okay, because her justified fear of men (white and black) around her child over-rides any implications of racism? I can't speak for all parents, but I hope if my wife feels uncomfortable about a situation, she does something about it, especially if our kids are involved. A persons safety trumps any desire protect someones feelings against racism. If a 6'2 male is going to cross my path when it's dark, I will certainly become more aware of my surroundings, regardless of their race. I will also turn and make sure they continue walking past me.
  - jonahx 10y ago
    Right, I get it. I feel the same. But the thing is, the logic "A persons safety trumps any desire protect someones feelings against racism" is exactly the logic that racists use. Some of the people who want to build a wall feel genuine fear, never mind its basis in reality. In their reality it's real. I'm not arguing that the logic is in itself wrong -- but whether that logic is being used in a reasonable way (as you seem to be doing) or being twisted into the service of something unfair and evil is, in the end, a matter of judgement and context.
DizzyDeezy 10y ago
I don't think you are being very fair to the poster. > That is different than assuming you must be an athlete because of the color of your skin (racism). They could be thinking he plays a sport because of his race, or it could be the fact that he is 6'2" and weighs 240 pounds. Likely it is a combination, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. We make assumptions based on race because a lot of things correlate to race. I have been 6 feet tall since middle school and was always asked if I played basketball because, well, a lot of tall black kids play basketball. When trying to have a conversation with a person I don't think their is anything wrong with trying to find a topic based on that person's appearance (i.e. clothing, height, weight) why should race be excluded? > That reason isn't because the color of your skin. Again, I think it is unfair to just say his feeling that people avoid sitting next to him is not only true, but it is because all those people are distrustful of him because of his skin color. Everyone feels like people avoid at times, an ugly person may thing it is because they are too ugly, a person who just ran a marathon may think it is because they stink. I don't think you should take his feelings as fact. > how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism. It is unfair to imply he doesn't already feel sad about those who actually experience racism, just because he is sad about something else. You can be sad about multiple things. And I (a black dude) think it is perfectly reasonable to be sad about racial divides that feel as if they are growing year by year. > A persons skin color is part of their identity, and we should recognize that, but not use that as a way to group, categorize, or otherwise use as the basis for how we behave towards that individual. I kind of agree here, but I find your statement somewhat hypocritical. You say a person's skin color is part of their identity but you also say we shouldn't group or categorize people based on skin color. You were also unhappy earlier about assumptions being made based on race. It sounds like you can't assume any cultural or societal standards for anyone based on race then it is just skin color, and then I don't understand why you would have a problem with everyone being colorblind, if you don't think race correlates to anything. Or do you think people should just completely ignore these correlations despite their existence, no matter how benign (like being more likely to ask if you play a sport you look like you could play based on physical appearance)?
- balls187 10y ago
  > Or do you think people should just completely ignore these correlations despite their existence, no matter how benign (like being more likely to ask if you play a sport you look like you could play based on physical appearance)? This.
jimbokun 10y ago
"I was the same way, until I had a kid of my own. You're better off smiling at the mom first, before making gestures toward small children." I have kids of my own, and I think treating someone like a creep just for smiling at your kid makes you an asshole.
- balls187 10y ago
  Yes it's pretty clear that smiling != creepy. So it seems that these parents who are marching their kids away are doing so for a reason other than the smile. Unless that smile is creepy, and/or the parent commenter is creepy.
smsm42 10y ago
> Don't act creepy to little kids. I am amazed at how a man smiling at a child is presumed to be creepy. I mean, we are biologically programmed to like kids (at least the sight of them, sound may be a different matter :), a phrase "cute kid" is as cliche as it can get. And still, if a man smiles to a child, he must be a creep. Strike that, he is a creep, it's definite and sealed. And, of course, it's his fault - after all, he should know that as a man he can't do such perverted things as smile at the sight of a cute kid. Is that unique US thing? I've never seen so much paranoia about kids and males as in the US in other countries. It feels really weird to me. > At the risk of telling you how to feel, how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism. One can do both. Both feel sad at people who are victim of real racism, and people who are victims of everything being reduced to racism.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > I've never seen so much paranoia about kids and males as in the US in other countries. The US is, I believe (its been a while since I've seen stats on the perception and reality, this was definitely true last I did see them) in a multi-decade long media-driven misperception of a rising tide of crimes involving stranger (especially male stranger) abduction and violence against children, while the actual incidence of such crimes has been declining for decades. So, yeah, its probably a uniquely (or at least, especially) American thing.
- balls187 10y ago
  Thank you, I've edited my point to hopefully make my thoughts a little more clear.
mst 10y ago
> Yes, this is something all men should be aware of. Don't act creepy to little kids. I was the same way, until I had a kid of my own. Teaching your children that a friendly smile is creepy is a great way to reinforce the statistically irrational stranger danger and bring them up with the idea of men-as-beasts and women-as-prey that reinforces patriarchal societal structures. Please consider reading up on enough basic feminism to realise just how much of a disservice that would be to your children.
- balls187 10y ago
  Do you think the parents who marched their kids away from the parent commenter was doing it because of a friendly smile?
  - mst 10y ago
    That's what the parent commenter said, and I've seen it happen. It should be possible for an adult male to smile at a female child without being assumed to be a would-be child molestor. It should also be possible for an adult non-white male to smile at an adult woman without being assumed to be a would-be rapist. Sadly, neither of those things are anything like guaranteed at the moment; maybe in a generation or two we'll be less fucking stupid about it.

mhenr18 10y ago

> A persons skin color is part of their identity Unless they're white, at which point they get shunned if they even try to embrace that part of their identity. If a black man says he's proud to be black, that's perfectly fine. If a white man says he's proud to be white, people think "what's wrong with being any other skin color?"

balls187 10y ago
I think you've missed the point about racial identity. White people do get to embrace their identity, but how it's how they do it that matters. "White pride", for better or worse, is closely linked to "white supremacy." That is different than, https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/ https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/ which embraces and celebrates "white" culture, without demonizing other cultures.
- nitwit005 10y ago
  I've yet to see an example of anyone seriously celebrating being white in some way that wasn't automatically being treated as racist. Things like what you link seem to get a pass because it's somewhat satirical in nature.
  - balls187 10y ago
    How would you celebrate white culture?
    - nitwit005 10y ago
      Type "celebration of black" into Google, look at the auto-complete results. Imagine those things, but with black flipped to white.
      - balls187 10y ago
        That sort of celebration happens defacto. I guess you prefer it to be called out explicitly? Or when you were in grade school, did you only learn about ["black","asian","latino"] authors, musicians, scholars, scientists, inventors, actors, etc etc?
        mc32 10y ago
        It depends what country you went to school in. So, yes, there are quite a few places where you will get only "["black","asian","latino"] authors, musicians, scholars, scientists, inventors, actors" till you get to university and get exposed to more. I mean, you don't think in Columbia, or Ukraine or the Philippines you'll read much American authors, musicians, scholars, scientists, inventors, actors, etc., other than those part of the global patrimony?
        balls187 10y ago
        This entire thread is about the US.
drumdance 10y ago
Being "proud to be white" is meaningless. Being proud to be Irish or Italian or German is not.
- mhenr18 10y ago
  If I'm born in my Australia, and my parents were, and their parents were, and their parents were, I'm not Irish or Italian or German or whatever majority-white European country you want to pick that I have a vague connection to. I'm Australian. The same applies to the Aboriginal people who have been here for thousands and thousands of years, before my ancestors invaded under a false pretense and treated them like garbage. However, those were my ancestors. Each generation is progressively less racist than the one before, and we're just as Australian as each other. The issue is not one of national identity but one of racial and cultural identity. Realistically, it's something that white people will have to put up with and understand as we're still in the long hangover of our more racist years. However, at some point our children (or our children's children) are going to ask why it's it's socially fine to embrace other races and cultures when it's shunned to embrace their own for reasons that are totally out of their control.

facepalm 10y ago

> At the risk of telling you how to feel, how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism. Both can be true - racism surely exists, and that is sad. But people attributing things to their race or sex that are not actually caused by their race or sex can also be quite tragic and self-defeating. My impression is that it happens a lot, at least with feminists - I have less experience with the issue of race (not living in the US).

balls187 10y ago
> But people attributing things to their race or sex that are not actually caused by their race or sex can also be quite tragic and self-defeating. I was at AWS re:Invent last year and had heard that a PagerDuty was having a party, and that we (a customers of theirs) could stop by their booth and pick up a wristband for VIP access. I stood behind a couple of my coworkers, who walked up, got wristbands and left. When it was my turn, I asked, but was turned away saying they are only handing out a limited number of wristbands. I explained I was a customer, and she had just given two wrists bands just seconds earlier to my coworkers, but she was very adamant about not letting me have one. I went to my room and angrily penned an email to our rep, asking why I wasn't given a band, when my two white coworkers were. Their response was that they only had a limited number of bands. The people working the booth were using their own judgement for who should get one and who shouldn't. At that moment, I wasn't Alan, director of engineer, an attendee of a poor public school system, the first in his family to graduate from high school (let along college). Instead I was just some brown guy who wasn't worth anything. In that moment, it made me remember my most painful memory of racism: when I was 14 years old, and having to comfort my mom as she cried because her boss denied her vacation time, then approved another of her coworkers vacation, despite my mother having more seniority, and having submitted her vacation first. The point of my story: if you've never really been a victim of racism, it's probably hard to understand why those of us who have been living with constant racism, turn to it first as a reason for how we are treated.
- webXL 10y ago
  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most white people are afraid of being labeled a racist, especially white people selling something. Why don't you use that to your advantage? As director of engineering, I'm sure you can vote with your company's dollars. The beauty of capitalism is that the overtly racist company is only going to get money from overt racists. Companies that want to do well don't treat people like that. Not to diminish all the hurtful discrimination certain groups of people face, but I'm not sad that the New Black Panthers probably don't want me in their club, and neo-nazis for that matter, but I don't think those clubs should be outlawed. People like you and me just say fuck'em and find places that make us better people. Doesn't sound like PagerDuty is that place. Their loss.

jonahx 10y ago

> Yes, this is something all men should be aware of. Don't act creepy to little kids. I was the same way, until I had a kid of my own. You're better off smiling at the mom first, before making gestures toward small children. This may be good practical advice, but it's worth comparing your suggestion to this quote from the piece: I would say things like, “oh, well I understand that I’m a big, Black guy, and that if I don’t shave for a few weeks and walked down the street at night, I’d probably be afraid of me, too.... what?” That is, you're suggesting it's the parent's responsibility to cater other people's fears of him. Yet I assume you would not make the same suggestion to the author of the piece? Is there a fundamental difference? What about if a mother grabs her child as a big black man walks past? Is that okay, because her justified fear of men (white and black) around her child over-rides any implications of racism? Or is it not allowed, because of the suggestion of racism (even though race is not, in fact, the motivator of her fear in this case)?

balls187 10y ago
> Yes, this is something all men should be aware of. Don't act creepy to little kids. I was the same way, until I had a kid of my own. Let me clarify this statement a bit: before having a kid, I was mindful of how I interacted with strangers and their children. > Is that okay, because her justified fear of men (white and black) around her child over-rides any implications of racism? I can't speak for all parents, but I hope if my wife feels uncomfortable about a situation, she does something about it, especially if our kids are involved. A persons safety trumps any desire protect someones feelings against racism. If a 6'2 male is going to cross my path when it's dark, I will certainly become more aware of my surroundings, regardless of their race. I will also turn and make sure they continue walking past me.
- jonahx 10y ago
  Right, I get it. I feel the same. But the thing is, the logic "A persons safety trumps any desire protect someones feelings against racism" is exactly the logic that racists use. Some of the people who want to build a wall feel genuine fear, never mind its basis in reality. In their reality it's real. I'm not arguing that the logic is in itself wrong -- but whether that logic is being used in a reasonable way (as you seem to be doing) or being twisted into the service of something unfair and evil is, in the end, a matter of judgement and context.

DizzyDeezy 10y ago

I don't think you are being very fair to the poster. > That is different than assuming you must be an athlete because of the color of your skin (racism). They could be thinking he plays a sport because of his race, or it could be the fact that he is 6'2" and weighs 240 pounds. Likely it is a combination, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. We make assumptions based on race because a lot of things correlate to race. I have been 6 feet tall since middle school and was always asked if I played basketball because, well, a lot of tall black kids play basketball. When trying to have a conversation with a person I don't think their is anything wrong with trying to find a topic based on that person's appearance (i.e. clothing, height, weight) why should race be excluded? > That reason isn't because the color of your skin. Again, I think it is unfair to just say his feeling that people avoid sitting next to him is not only true, but it is because all those people are distrustful of him because of his skin color. Everyone feels like people avoid at times, an ugly person may thing it is because they are too ugly, a person who just ran a marathon may think it is because they stink. I don't think you should take his feelings as fact. > how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism. It is unfair to imply he doesn't already feel sad about those who actually experience racism, just because he is sad about something else. You can be sad about multiple things. And I (a black dude) think it is perfectly reasonable to be sad about racial divides that feel as if they are growing year by year. > A persons skin color is part of their identity, and we should recognize that, but not use that as a way to group, categorize, or otherwise use as the basis for how we behave towards that individual. I kind of agree here, but I find your statement somewhat hypocritical. You say a person's skin color is part of their identity but you also say we shouldn't group or categorize people based on skin color. You were also unhappy earlier about assumptions being made based on race. It sounds like you can't assume any cultural or societal standards for anyone based on race then it is just skin color, and then I don't understand why you would have a problem with everyone being colorblind, if you don't think race correlates to anything. Or do you think people should just completely ignore these correlations despite their existence, no matter how benign (like being more likely to ask if you play a sport you look like you could play based on physical appearance)?

balls187 10y ago
> Or do you think people should just completely ignore these correlations despite their existence, no matter how benign (like being more likely to ask if you play a sport you look like you could play based on physical appearance)? This.

jimbokun 10y ago

"I was the same way, until I had a kid of my own. You're better off smiling at the mom first, before making gestures toward small children." I have kids of my own, and I think treating someone like a creep just for smiling at your kid makes you an asshole.

balls187 10y ago
Yes it's pretty clear that smiling != creepy. So it seems that these parents who are marching their kids away are doing so for a reason other than the smile. Unless that smile is creepy, and/or the parent commenter is creepy.

smsm42 10y ago

> Don't act creepy to little kids. I am amazed at how a man smiling at a child is presumed to be creepy. I mean, we are biologically programmed to like kids (at least the sight of them, sound may be a different matter :), a phrase "cute kid" is as cliche as it can get. And still, if a man smiles to a child, he must be a creep. Strike that, he is a creep, it's definite and sealed. And, of course, it's his fault - after all, he should know that as a man he can't do such perverted things as smile at the sight of a cute kid. Is that unique US thing? I've never seen so much paranoia about kids and males as in the US in other countries. It feels really weird to me. > At the risk of telling you how to feel, how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism. One can do both. Both feel sad at people who are victim of real racism, and people who are victims of everything being reduced to racism.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> I've never seen so much paranoia about kids and males as in the US in other countries. The US is, I believe (its been a while since I've seen stats on the perception and reality, this was definitely true last I did see them) in a multi-decade long media-driven misperception of a rising tide of crimes involving stranger (especially male stranger) abduction and violence against children, while the actual incidence of such crimes has been declining for decades. So, yeah, its probably a uniquely (or at least, especially) American thing.
balls187 10y ago
Thank you, I've edited my point to hopefully make my thoughts a little more clear.

mst 10y ago

> Yes, this is something all men should be aware of. Don't act creepy to little kids. I was the same way, until I had a kid of my own. Teaching your children that a friendly smile is creepy is a great way to reinforce the statistically irrational stranger danger and bring them up with the idea of men-as-beasts and women-as-prey that reinforces patriarchal societal structures. Please consider reading up on enough basic feminism to realise just how much of a disservice that would be to your children.

balls187 10y ago
Do you think the parents who marched their kids away from the parent commenter was doing it because of a friendly smile?
- mst 10y ago
  That's what the parent commenter said, and I've seen it happen. It should be possible for an adult male to smile at a female child without being assumed to be a would-be child molestor. It should also be possible for an adult non-white male to smile at an adult woman without being assumed to be a would-be rapist. Sadly, neither of those things are anything like guaranteed at the moment; maybe in a generation or two we'll be less fucking stupid about it.