4 ms·

I'm not sure we can have the kind of frank discussions about race in America that we need if just asking about someone's experience is considered out of bounds.

by hawkice 10y ago

tibbon 10y ago
It's not out of bounds, but there's a time and place for it. Maybe listen for that person speaking about something that frustrates them, and then say, "That's really shitty. Do you want to tell me more about it? I also understand if you've got other stuff on your mind"
iamdave 10y ago
And we never will when you oversimplify someone sharing their lived experiences because of your personal unawareness of said experiences, and definitely not when one pithily reduces someone's expressions down to that. Sorry to be that (black) guy but /rolls eyes shameless plug, loosely related: https://medium.com/the-phenomenon-of-black/a-few-words-on-the-black-voice-on-social-media-9342c5e8310b#.2zmk8q9mh https://medium.com/the-phenomenon-of-black/a-few-words-on-th...
- ChristianBundy 10y ago
  Please be civil, there's really no reason to be rude -- even if you disagree. I believe the point that they were trying to make is that on the surface it seems like a double-standard. We have a huge cultural focus on diversity where we want to see more success from those who aren't cisgender heterosexual white males in tech, but when we talk about that focus there's usually a critique that someone is being disingenuous. We, as a culture, are focused on giving people with social disadvantages opportunities to be successful, and so it makes sense to applaud that success, ask questions, and highlight how successful you've been despite said-disadvantages. On the other hand, I understand that it gets old quickly, and that eventually the label ends up feeling like it's taking over your real identity -- putting you in a lesser league compared to your peers. It feels like, as you said, that you're reducing someone's expressions down to their minority status. The only way to appease both sides would be to give people opportunities based on their social disadvantages as a minority and then when they make it big pretend like it never happened. Sure, it's more comfortable for everyone involved, but it seems to me to be intellectually dishonest. What do you think?
  - iamdave 10y ago
    I think this comment says it better than I'll ever be able to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093
tptacek 10y ago
The problem is that random people you work with who happen to be African American aren't vending machines dispensing resolutions for your concerns about race in America. But they can sometimes get treated that way.
- mc32 10y ago
  Is it _that_ different from being a foreigner in another country and being asked about one's opinion about American interventionism (or whatever) or GWB or Obama? Perhaps it is. I got used to it. (not everyone does). In parts of the world, as an American, you get stared at because you're different (especially countryside). I get used to it, some people find it grating as well as something yo commiserate or bond over. Some people deal with these norms differently, for sure. For me, I get used go it and think little of it. I'm not comparing the bias, racism, I'm specifically asking about bringing up tropes and being the rep for a whole country or culture.
  - Semiapies 10y ago
    Is it _that_ different from being a foreigner in another country and being asked about one's opinion about American interventionism (or whatever) or GWB or Obama? The only difference is that most people would understand that to be a rude question.
    - mc32 10y ago
      If you travel out of capital cities in the eastern hemisphere, it's common and totally not considered rude by locals. It's lots of people's way of introducing themselves into a convo and chit chat with a strange person, the likes they rarely see outside of TV/movies.
    - ralfd 10y ago
      My girlfriend is American and she was asked a couple days ago here in Europe what is up in the US with Dallas and guns and police and Trump etc. It was not rude, it was just small talk.
dragonwriter 10y ago
A number of people don't think so much that we need "frank discussions about race" in America, we just need people to stop being treated as if their role in society is defined by their race. Including the role of "educator specializing in the subject of the experiences of non-white people". There are plenty of people who -- on a professional or amateur basis -- have chosen that role for themselves, many of whom advertise their willingness to take on that role (or provide canned accounts to the public for free.) But its an imposition to assume that any non-white person you meet is, simply because they are non-white, eager to step into that role.

I'm not sure we can have the kind of frank discussions about race in America that we need if just asking about someone's experience is considered out of bounds.

by hawkice 10y ago

I'm not sure we can have the kind of frank discussions about race in America that we need if just asking about someone's experience is considered out of bounds.

tibbon 10y ago

It's not out of bounds, but there's a time and place for it. Maybe listen for that person speaking about something that frustrates them, and then say, "That's really shitty. Do you want to tell me more about it? I also understand if you've got other stuff on your mind"

iamdave 10y ago

And we never will when you oversimplify someone sharing their lived experiences because of your personal unawareness of said experiences, and definitely not when one pithily reduces someone's expressions down to that. Sorry to be that (black) guy but /rolls eyes shameless plug, loosely related: https://medium.com/the-phenomenon-of-black/a-few-words-on-the-black-voice-on-social-media-9342c5e8310b#.2zmk8q9mh https://medium.com/the-phenomenon-of-black/a-few-words-on-th...

ChristianBundy 10y ago
Please be civil, there's really no reason to be rude -- even if you disagree. I believe the point that they were trying to make is that on the surface it seems like a double-standard. We have a huge cultural focus on diversity where we want to see more success from those who aren't cisgender heterosexual white males in tech, but when we talk about that focus there's usually a critique that someone is being disingenuous. We, as a culture, are focused on giving people with social disadvantages opportunities to be successful, and so it makes sense to applaud that success, ask questions, and highlight how successful you've been despite said-disadvantages. On the other hand, I understand that it gets old quickly, and that eventually the label ends up feeling like it's taking over your real identity -- putting you in a lesser league compared to your peers. It feels like, as you said, that you're reducing someone's expressions down to their minority status. The only way to appease both sides would be to give people opportunities based on their social disadvantages as a minority and then when they make it big pretend like it never happened. Sure, it's more comfortable for everyone involved, but it seems to me to be intellectually dishonest. What do you think?
- iamdave 10y ago
  I think this comment says it better than I'll ever be able to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093

tptacek 10y ago

The problem is that random people you work with who happen to be African American aren't vending machines dispensing resolutions for your concerns about race in America. But they can sometimes get treated that way.

mc32 10y ago
Is it _that_ different from being a foreigner in another country and being asked about one's opinion about American interventionism (or whatever) or GWB or Obama? Perhaps it is. I got used to it. (not everyone does). In parts of the world, as an American, you get stared at because you're different (especially countryside). I get used to it, some people find it grating as well as something yo commiserate or bond over. Some people deal with these norms differently, for sure. For me, I get used go it and think little of it. I'm not comparing the bias, racism, I'm specifically asking about bringing up tropes and being the rep for a whole country or culture.
- Semiapies 10y ago
  Is it _that_ different from being a foreigner in another country and being asked about one's opinion about American interventionism (or whatever) or GWB or Obama? The only difference is that most people would understand that to be a rude question.
  - mc32 10y ago
    If you travel out of capital cities in the eastern hemisphere, it's common and totally not considered rude by locals. It's lots of people's way of introducing themselves into a convo and chit chat with a strange person, the likes they rarely see outside of TV/movies.
  - ralfd 10y ago
    My girlfriend is American and she was asked a couple days ago here in Europe what is up in the US with Dallas and guns and police and Trump etc. It was not rude, it was just small talk.

dragonwriter 10y ago

A number of people don't think so much that we need "frank discussions about race" in America, we just need people to stop being treated as if their role in society is defined by their race. Including the role of "educator specializing in the subject of the experiences of non-white people". There are plenty of people who -- on a professional or amateur basis -- have chosen that role for themselves, many of whom advertise their willingness to take on that role (or provide canned accounts to the public for free.) But its an imposition to assume that any non-white person you meet is, simply because they are non-white, eager to step into that role.