7 ms·
In the list of things he's gotten used to that make him uncomfortable: > Being asked things like, “So, what’s it like being a black guy in Silicon Valley?” In
by hawkice 10y ago
In the list of things he's gotten used to that make him uncomfortable:
> Being asked things like, “So, what’s it like being a black guy in Silicon Valley?”
In all fairness, the whole premise of the piece is that the answer is worth hearing.
- cheeze 10y agoSure, but it's much different to want to voluntarily talk about it versus being asked randomly. If I open up on a sensitive subject that is hard for me to talk about, great. If someone randomly asks me to open up about it, not so great.
- hawkice 10y agoI'm not sure we can have the kind of frank discussions about race in America that we need if just asking about someone's experience is considered out of bounds.
- tibbon 10y agoIt's not out of bounds, but there's a time and place for it. Maybe listen for that person speaking about something that frustrates them, and then say, "That's really shitty. Do you want to tell me more about it? I also understand if you've got other stuff on your mind"
- iamdave 10y agoAnd we never will when you oversimplify someone sharing their lived experiences because of your personal unawareness of said experiences, and definitely not when one pithily reduces someone's expressions down to that. Sorry to be that (black) guy but /rolls eyes shameless plug, loosely related: https://medium.com/the-phenomenon-of-black/a-few-words-on-the-black-voice-on-social-media-9342c5e8310b#.2zmk8q9mh https://medium.com/the-phenomenon-of-black/a-few-words-on-th...
- ChristianBundy 10y agoPlease be civil, there's really no reason to be rude -- even if you disagree. I believe the point that they were trying to make is that on the surface it seems like a double-standard. We have a huge cultural focus on diversity where we want to see more success from those who aren't cisgender heterosexual white males in tech, but when we talk about that focus there's usually a critique that someone is being disingenuous. We, as a culture, are focused on giving people with social disadvantages opportunities to be successful, and so it makes sense to applaud that success, ask questions, and highlight how successful you've been despite said-disadvantages. On the other hand, I understand that it gets old quickly, and that eventually the label ends up feeling like it's taking over your real identity -- putting you in a lesser league compared to your peers. It feels like, as you said, that you're reducing someone's expressions down to their minority status. The only way to appease both sides would be to give people opportunities based on their social disadvantages as a minority and then when they make it big pretend like it never happened. Sure, it's more comfortable for everyone involved, but it seems to me to be intellectually dishonest. What do you think?
- iamdave 10y agoI think this comment says it better than I'll ever be able to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093
- tptacek 10y agoThe problem is that random people you work with who happen to be African American aren't vending machines dispensing resolutions for your concerns about race in America. But they can sometimes get treated that way.
- mc32 10y agoIs it _that_ different from being a foreigner in another country and being asked about one's opinion about American interventionism (or whatever) or GWB or Obama? Perhaps it is. I got used to it. (not everyone does). In parts of the world, as an American, you get stared at because you're different (especially countryside). I get used to it, some people find it grating as well as something yo commiserate or bond over. Some people deal with these norms differently, for sure. For me, I get used go it and think little of it. I'm not comparing the bias, racism, I'm specifically asking about bringing up tropes and being the rep for a whole country or culture.
- Semiapies 10y agoIs it _that_ different from being a foreigner in another country and being asked about one's opinion about American interventionism (or whatever) or GWB or Obama? The only difference is that most people would understand that to be a rude question.
- mc32 10y agoIf you travel out of capital cities in the eastern hemisphere, it's common and totally not considered rude by locals. It's lots of people's way of introducing themselves into a convo and chit chat with a strange person, the likes they rarely see outside of TV/movies.
- ralfd 10y agoMy girlfriend is American and she was asked a couple days ago here in Europe what is up in the US with Dallas and guns and police and Trump etc. It was not rude, it was just small talk.
- dragonwriter 10y agoA number of people don't think so much that we need "frank discussions about race" in America, we just need people to stop being treated as if their role in society is defined by their race. Including the role of "educator specializing in the subject of the experiences of non-white people". There are plenty of people who -- on a professional or amateur basis -- have chosen that role for themselves, many of whom advertise their willingness to take on that role (or provide canned accounts to the public for free.) But its an imposition to assume that any non-white person you meet is, simply because they are non-white, eager to step into that role.
- tibbon 10y agoBut people quickly grow tired of needing to be the token spokesperson for their group, and needing to explain the frustrations again and again (without actually perhaps seeing them changing). No one ever asks me (a white guy) what it's like to be a white programmer. One of my friends is a pretty famous guitarist, who happens to be a woman. For the longest time, the first interview question was "What's it like to be a famous female musician?", to which her response eventually became, "It's a lot like being a male musician, except you get this question every interview". Thankfully, the better interviewers have now caught onto this and don't ask such. So yea, it's good for people to learn about the difficulties/differences in being X in Y, but it's also tiring to explain those frequently, especially if people aren't asking you other things that you might find fun.
- tcdent 10y agoI have a long beard. Nearly every conversation with a new person involves some question about it; often "how long did I take?". I don't get mad at people for behaving predictably, I expect it.
- mikeyouse 10y agoThen again, you chose to have a long beard knowing full-well that it could attract extra attention.
- tcdent 10y agoIf there's anything to learn from the diversity conversation, it's that really, we're all quite different, and we shouldn't be afraid to act like it. Participants in monoculture are the real culprit. Notable that in this instance where we're talking about opting-out of a popular practice, akin to sobriety or un-dyed hair, but followers of mainstream culture still treat it as a deliberate act.
- hasbroslasher 10y agoI think you're missing the point - choosing to have a beard (or weird hair, or be sober, or what have you) is a different than being born with a different skin color without any choice of your own.
- hyperliner 10y agoI am struggling with the point that one should never ask a black person "what is like being black in [some setting]?" more or less the way I struggle with it if you replace "black" with "gay" or "girl" or "socially awkward" or "obese." How are whites possibly going to understand white privilege if they are never taught what it is to not have all those default advantages? (never having to waste extra time at airport, never having to waste time in courts, never having to not be helped purchasing expensive items, never having to be asked to explain the actions of whites, never having to feel guilty for the actions of people who only look like you, etc etc.) This is more or less the same thing that happens to rich or wealthy people who cannot understand that not everybody has an iPhone or can blow $10k to go to Hawaii. Maybe this story is a good way to start: "It's not easy being either one of us right now" https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-easy-being-either-us-000000384.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-easy-being-either-us-00000038...
- dragonwriter 10y ago> How are whites possibly going to understand white privilege if they are never taught what it is to not have all those default advantages? There are plenty of people volunteering to teach you about those things. Heck, there are entire public awareness organizations, university departments, and other institutions devoted to providing education on that issue. Its not the job of every person of color you meet on the street to be your racial-experience teacher. The same is true, mutatis mutandis, for LGBTQ, female, socially awkward, or obese people.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago"Heck, there are entire public awareness organizations, university departments, and other institutions devoted to providing education on that issue." They promote specific, biased views given most of them are liberal & pushing similar claims. I meet many Blacks in the South, from other cities, and from other countries whose views contradict points I learned from such organizations. There's a whole spectrum of opinion. Certain things most will agree with for sure but the differences can be pretty big. Funny thing is people involved in the organizations you mentioned often argue with those views until I say they came from Black people. Then they still argue with them. So, do they represent Black people or a subset of them's views? I'm leaning latter. Means I listen to them, read blogs of many types of people (Black or otherwise), talk to individuals about the issues if they bring up the topic, and listen to white opposition, too. Learned plenty by listening to people from all walks of life instead of just the most vocal groups. From there, the question remains about how best to do that without causing people discomfort. Seems 90% art 10% science if that. I get mixed results...
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y agoIf someone like the author wants to talk about those issues, let them bring it up. Don't be the one to force the conversation. Definitely don't do it in a professional setting.