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Yeah, many of the 'popular' discussions of Quantum Mechanics that show up here on HN do often diverge well into philosophical directions and away from hard scie

Yeah, many of the 'popular' discussions of Quantum Mechanics that show up here on HN do often diverge well into philosophical directions and away from hard science. It's true that science and philosophy did come from a common discipline (my undergrad uni originally had a Natural Philosophy dept that only became a physics department somewhere between 100-150 yrs ago). Though I thought one of the physics professors when I was in grad school said it best : "Physics is philosophy with integrals".

marblar 10y ago
I love that quote.
00098345 10y ago
World-over, the degree conferred for significant contribution through original work in Science (and Engineering) has principally been Doctor of Philosophy. I doubt if it will ever change.
dmfdmf 10y ago
I agree but I think there are important philosophic[1] questions raised by quantum mechanics and, to a lesser extent, special relativity. One hundred years ago the founders of the new physics had the same questions but could not resolve them to everyone's satisfaction. One of the founders of modern physics (I forget who) said (I am paraphrasing) that all the different views on the "meaning" of the new physics amounted to where you want to hide the contradictions. The Copenhagen "interpretation" was not a definitive win but a truce. These brilliant men argued for a decade and could not resolve it so they decided to bury the questions. It was not unreasonable in that context to accept that they did not know the answers but the theories work so let's use it and see where it leads. I am sure the hope was that the answers to the philosophic questions would become clear as our understanding of the new physics grew. There was a lot of work to do aside from the philosophic questions. Fast forward 100 years and here we are, the philosophic questions are still unanswered, and the Copenhagen interpretation has hardened into dogma banning any discussion of fundamental questions in physics. I have respect for Smolin for at least trying to re-raise these important questions. [1] I am of the view that philosophy is distinct from physics in that it studies the nature of reality and knowledge, thus it applies to ALL fields not just physics. WHAT do we know and HOW we know is the more (or the most) fundamental science. The physicists are throwing out the baby with the bath water when they reject philosophy en masse instead of rejecting bad philosophy.
Koshkin 10y ago
"Physics is philosophy with integrals." -- Well, too bad for physics... But where to look for guidance? Philosophy tries to answer questions that do not have answers; theology studies that which does not exist. What a waste of time. Even Einstein, how many years did he spend trying to understand the meaning of these philosophical "integrals", to no avail? Even his mind was powerless trying to come up with an interpretation of the quantum mechanical theory that would make sense. Should we accept this as an indication that there are limits to our ability to understand, just as there are limits to what we can achieve physically?
- JackFr 10y ago
  > What a waste of time. A philosophical assertion about what should be valued, if ever there was one.
- jimbokun 10y ago
  "Should we accept this as an indication that there are limits to our ability to understand, just as there are limits to what we can achieve physically?" That's a quintessential philosophical question.
aaronbrethorst 10y ago
I like your quote at the end so much that I tried to find a stronger citation for it. The only thing I could come up with was a 12 year old comment of yours from Slashdot: https://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=115306&cid=9766265 https://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=115306&cid=9766... :)
- jeffwass 10y ago
  Haha, thanks for that blast from the past! The quote was by Zlatko Tesanovic, a brilliant and witty theorist who sadly passed away a few years ago. Here's a link to a page of some of his other quotes, as recorded by his students. IIRC he said the integrals quote when I was the TA for his statistical mechanics and thermodynamics class. http://blog.danallan.com/notes/2012/parting-shots/ http://blog.danallan.com/notes/2012/parting-shots/
  - aaronbrethorst 10y ago
    thank you for the link, and I'm sorry to hear of his passing.

marblar 10y ago

I love that quote.

00098345 10y ago

World-over, the degree conferred for significant contribution through original work in Science (and Engineering) has principally been Doctor of Philosophy. I doubt if it will ever change.

dmfdmf 10y ago

I agree but I think there are important philosophic[1] questions raised by quantum mechanics and, to a lesser extent, special relativity. One hundred years ago the founders of the new physics had the same questions but could not resolve them to everyone's satisfaction. One of the founders of modern physics (I forget who) said (I am paraphrasing) that all the different views on the "meaning" of the new physics amounted to where you want to hide the contradictions. The Copenhagen "interpretation" was not a definitive win but a truce. These brilliant men argued for a decade and could not resolve it so they decided to bury the questions. It was not unreasonable in that context to accept that they did not know the answers but the theories work so let's use it and see where it leads. I am sure the hope was that the answers to the philosophic questions would become clear as our understanding of the new physics grew. There was a lot of work to do aside from the philosophic questions. Fast forward 100 years and here we are, the philosophic questions are still unanswered, and the Copenhagen interpretation has hardened into dogma banning any discussion of fundamental questions in physics. I have respect for Smolin for at least trying to re-raise these important questions. [1] I am of the view that philosophy is distinct from physics in that it studies the nature of reality and knowledge, thus it applies to ALL fields not just physics. WHAT do we know and HOW we know is the more (or the most) fundamental science. The physicists are throwing out the baby with the bath water when they reject philosophy en masse instead of rejecting bad philosophy.

Koshkin 10y ago

"Physics is philosophy with integrals." -- Well, too bad for physics... But where to look for guidance? Philosophy tries to answer questions that do not have answers; theology studies that which does not exist. What a waste of time. Even Einstein, how many years did he spend trying to understand the meaning of these philosophical "integrals", to no avail? Even his mind was powerless trying to come up with an interpretation of the quantum mechanical theory that would make sense. Should we accept this as an indication that there are limits to our ability to understand, just as there are limits to what we can achieve physically?

JackFr 10y ago
> What a waste of time. A philosophical assertion about what should be valued, if ever there was one.
jimbokun 10y ago
"Should we accept this as an indication that there are limits to our ability to understand, just as there are limits to what we can achieve physically?" That's a quintessential philosophical question.

aaronbrethorst 10y ago

I like your quote at the end so much that I tried to find a stronger citation for it. The only thing I could come up with was a 12 year old comment of yours from Slashdot: https://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=115306&cid=9766265 https://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=115306&cid=9766... :)

jeffwass 10y ago
Haha, thanks for that blast from the past! The quote was by Zlatko Tesanovic, a brilliant and witty theorist who sadly passed away a few years ago. Here's a link to a page of some of his other quotes, as recorded by his students. IIRC he said the integrals quote when I was the TA for his statistical mechanics and thermodynamics class. http://blog.danallan.com/notes/2012/parting-shots/ http://blog.danallan.com/notes/2012/parting-shots/
- aaronbrethorst 10y ago
  thank you for the link, and I'm sorry to hear of his passing.