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The Brexit hangover has left UK startups drained – Are the brains next?

66 points by ognevvv 10y ago

poooogles 10y ago
Having just had one developer decide not to join our UK based company due to this, then yes I feel brains will be next. I'm certainly thinking about my continued residency in the UK. Berlin looks pretty interesting for me, however the tech seem definitely doesn't seem as vibrant as that of London at a quick glance.
- johneth 10y ago
  > the tech seem definitely doesn't seem as vibrant as that of London at a quick glance. That could change as people decide against London and for EU cities. I'd say Dublin has quite a chance, too (although certainly not to the same extent).
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    One of the main reasons that "IT" and developers specifically choose the UK or more specifically London it's that it's the only place where you can get salaries which are even remotely close to what you get in the US. A developer in spain earns about 35K Euro's, a developer in Berlin earns 60K. Deserving or not IT doesn't pay more than most professional positions in the EU and in many places you would be getting paid about as much as some public sector workers and teachers. While the average UK developer salary isn't considerably higher than Germany, the London salaries are considerably higher and it is the only tech hub where developers can break the 100K GBP(~130K US in the current market, but it was 150K+ just a year ago) mark in Europe. Add to that the fact that non-base compensation is very low in Europe in general, bonuses are fairly low, equity is considerably rarer than in the US, large tech companies would give you access to some sort of an employee investment plan but that's about it the UK was and still is pretty important in keeping IT talent within the EU. Given the usual risk averse culture of most of the continental states (with somewhat the exception of Eastern europe and the baltic states) it's quite unlikely that a true startup hub can emerge anywhere else, the UK or again more specifically London had access to a lot of financial capital which helped it to compensate for the usual European aversion from risk, venture capital and the startup culture in general.
    - k-mcgrady 10y ago
      >> "London salaries are considerably higher and it is the only tech hub where developers can break the 100K GBP" This might be true for big companies but certainly not startups. In my experience mid-level developers can expect around £45K and senior £60k (at startups). You could break definitely break £100k with contract work though.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        More or less but is what's available, same thing goes for the continent, a developer for Amazon in Berlin would be making 60-65K euro's. The UK used to be a big upgrade even outside of London due to the relative strength of the currency(especially during the Euro crisis), but the EUR and the GBP are almost at parity these days so that's gone (if you are making 50K GBP it's 59K US, if you are making 50K EUR it's 55K US these days).
        distances 10y ago
        Just pure salary comparison isn't enough though. London has crazy living costs, and Berlin's response is the heavy taxation (about 40%-45% including the compulsory health insurance).
        bogomipz 10y ago
        40-45%? Is this true across Germany? Wouldn't this put it higher than Sweden?
        kuschku 10y ago
        That’s after including healthcare and insurances, usually. (Against all rumors, Germany doesn’t have universal nationalized healthcare)
        distances 10y ago
        As the other commenter mentioned, this is after including a compulsory health insurance which is about 15% of your salary. And yes, taxation in this income bracket is higher than in the Nordic countries. Can't say if this is true across Germany. You can also choose private insurance if your income is high enough, which can then be cheaper for you than the mentioned 15%. The income limit for that is something like 55-60k/year, if I recall correctly.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    The problem with Dublin is cost of living. Comparing my London costs to a friend in Dublin he's paying more for pretty much everything and usually by a significant amount. Berlin would also be a better choice for a lot of people as it is on mainland Europe so easier to travel to (people can drive with all of their belongings when moving).
- cs02rm0 10y ago
  One swallow does not make a summer. There's going to be a period of uncertainty where there may be an effect, but if they hurry up and get on with it then some stability should return. If the 15% rate of corporation tax comes in or other measures it could well encourage investment. In the meantime, I suspect Brexit will be a convenient excuse for anyone wishing to decline a job offer regardless of whether that's really their reason.
  - tkyjonathan 10y ago
    Hiring in the UK tech sector has largely stopped. There are no positions, unless you are a devop - in which case, there are tons of positions. If people are so interested in saving the UK tech scene, why not hire people already living in the UK? Those people will not be able to survive until consumer and investor confidence returns and they will be the first to head out to other EU countries.
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      > "Hiring in the UK tech sector has largely stopped." You're basing this on what exactly? I got a new job this week and there was plenty of people hiring tech talent (I had interviews lined up with 5 different companies within 2 weeks of starting to look).
      - tkyjonathan 10y ago
        Lucky you. I've been out of work for a while and there is also the matter of 700,000 less job ads from before the referendum.
        ZenoArrow 10y ago
        What sort of work are you looking for?
    - mike_hearn 10y ago
      The firm I work is hiring in London for developers right now. Brexit makes no difference for us.
- cm2187 10y ago
  Sprechen sie deutsch?
- throwaway991132 10y ago
  Since putting up a job opening. I have been inundated with applications from France, Germany, Barcelona and other EU places. I have contacted each applicant from the EU and asked them why they want to work in the UK. 1 thing came to the forefront over and over. WAGES. Even one from Berlin commented that the tech scene in Berlin wasn't that interesting at all.
dazc 10y ago
"European staff suddenly have no idea how long they will be able to work in Britain." Well, after 5 years they can stay indefinitely. https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card/permanent-residence-card https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card/permanent-r... You can apply for a permanent residence card after you’ve lived in the UK for 5 years. This will prove your right to live in the UK permanently.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- solidangle 10y ago
  Those rules might change, one of the Conservative candidates announced that she'll kick out all EU immigrants that enter the UK after she becomes the prime minister. Edit: source: https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/751682424405430272 https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/751682424405430272
  - dazc 10y ago
    I don't think she said that exactly, especially as she was on the side of remaining in the EU. All rules can change but this is how it as at the moment.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    That's scaremongering; not going to happen.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      The damage is done though.
  - cs02rm0 10y ago
    That can't possibly be true - link?
  - hardlianotion 10y ago
    Which one? Do you have a quote?
mianos 10y ago
There are lots of reasonable arguments to investing in the UK first. They now have the opportunity to innovate without having to work on with committees with thousands of people on them (cookie laws, wtf). As an investor I have more trust in the UK than the rest of Europe. The employment argument is reasonable except, there is still plenty of Eastern European talent that was never in the EU.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  What eastern European talent is actually left these days that isn't part of the EU? The only thing that's really left is the Ukraine and Belarus...
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    Exactly this. And I've known a company in Germany that are very happy to hire people from these nationalities even if they require a visa (Which just goes to show how "we can't hire people outside of the EU while in the EU" is complete BS)
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      It's not hard for UK companies to hire outside of the EU either, Tier 2 general and Tier 2 ICT sponsorships are pretty easy to obtain. The cost is different tho, developers from spain can just move to the UK and look for a job. Hiring some one internationally is usually a more complicated process.
      - raverbashing 10y ago
        Yes, I know that, but it was one of the selling points of Brexit
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- matt4077 10y ago
  - The UK will end up still following EU regulations because anything else would risk their access to the common market - Even now, EU regulations affect non-EU companies. No way to avoid the "cookie law" if you want to serve EU customers. - The list of regulations that affect startups, especially in the web/software space is rather small. The impact of regulation on the startup scene in Europe is almost zero.
throwaway991132 10y ago
> European staff suddenly have no idea how long they will be able to work in Britain. I've heard a number of politicians say that those who are here will be able to remain. It would be such a mistake to suddenly tell people to leave. It's not going to happen. Also a number of points about he article. > Although Europe’s 500 million citizens dwarfs the 323 million in the US So what. They all speak different languages, not one. So there are some hurdles there to selling to them. In addition. Only about 4? countries in the EU are rich enough to be trading with. The rest aren't really worth a mention. I'd easily take the 323 in the US, as I have only 1 language to deal with and immediate results in setting up a business for the US. > “Long term I think I will have to relocate my business to the USA as the market in the UK is just too small to justify staying here,” she told me. What’s that? A market of 65 million too small? Well, yes, when just a fortnight ago it was 500 million. This is laughable. I have a business in both the UK and the US. Even if I was just operating in the UK. I'd still have access to the US. How this article is sounding like the UK cannot trade with the EU is again laughable. This article smacks of scare-mongering. Finally one thing, follow the money. > Look for talented British entrepreneurs suddenly turning up in Berlin, Stockholm, Lisbon and Barcelona. Wasn't there an article on HN saying that Barcelona couldnt find enough tech workers? The evidence pointed to compensation. I doubt there will be much of a brain drain, when British tech workers balk at how much they'd be losing in salary working anywhere apart from the UK or US.
- throwaway991132 10y ago
  Oh and waiting for the downvotes from French and German HN users. Britain is now a direct competitor to these countries. With 1 notable exception. Britain can now put in place any legislation she wishes to be even more competitive than the EU. Contrast that to the EU, where you have 28? member states which have to agree whatever is ratified. Remember previously that France, Germany and Spain have shot down previous bills because it would hurt a sector of their economy? Not Britain can do whatever is in HER best interest.
- TillE 10y ago
  > I've heard a number of politicians say that those who are here will be able to remain. That's nice, but it's far from a promise. Sometimes uncertainty and instability can be worse than an actual bad situation.
afarrell 10y ago
American software engineer who is leaving the US in 35 hours to work for a startup in the UK here. I feel like even for non-EU immigrants, the brexit makes Britain in general less attractive. Part of the reason I'm joining the company is getting to work alongside folks from across the EU and, while I strongly suspect they'll ultimately be alright, I wouldn't be surprised if they were more anxious. Another reason is that my wife loves to travel, we are going to use London as a base, and this does hurt the value of my salary for traveling in the EU.
- afarrell 10y ago
  Aside from the impact on myself, I'd strongly suspect that non-white immigrants feel less welcome due to the uptick in racist incidents (or at least the media reports thereof) which has accompanied this. hmmm.... It just occurs to me that I've been assuming I'm still white in the UK. I think that is a safe assumption, but race is weird so I suppose there is a slight possibility that my skin is dark enough that I'm not. huh.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    It's not just aimed at 'non-whites', it is aimed at all foreigners. (Though it is likely that skin color will make it (much) worse.)
    - afarrell 10y ago
      yea, I saw something about a Polish community center having been vandalized. The response to that vandalism was really heartwarming though. Also, how are you doing? Thank you for the referral a while back when I was doing my job search. The EU offices weren't hiring SWEs at the time, but the referral was still helpful.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        You're welcome, and I'm doing ok, crazy busy a few weeks ago, now fortunately a little bit more quiet.
mychaelangelo 10y ago
"Given that the UK had been part of a single market which allowed for enormous freedom of movement, its access to all that talent in Europe is now in jeopardy." I don't think UK Govt will jeopardise access to talent with unprogressive immigration reform. UK tech startups need not worry on this front. And just look at USA as an example. Despite VISA issues for foreigners, Silicon Valley still thrives and still has reasonable access to a global pool of talent.
- tosseraccount 10y ago
  Leaving the harsh regulations of this customs union can benefit Britain and non-EU trading countries. They're better offer negotiating as a free agent.
- insulanian 10y ago
  Silicon Valley has acces to US talent pool, which is significantly higher than the UK one.
gregdoesit 10y ago
I work in London. Since the referendum, all my European, non British colleagues -including myself - have started to discuss places we could potentially move to, "just in case". Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin are the most popular ones - and I've found myself thinking much more seriously that it might be time to prepare. Perhaps some of my colleagues are on the same page. Yes, there are 2 or 2.5 years when nothing will change theoretically. But do I really want to commit to a country, with uncertainty as to what will happen after this 2.5 years? I suggest everyone affected do their research on the options available. Luckily, there are plenty. Just in case.
- Redoubts 10y ago
  How is emigration to Europe going to work while the UK leaves the EU? Might you have to go back and reapply for visas?
  - hackerboos 10y ago
    Depends on the terms of our exit. Free movement is still on the table for the likely winner of the Conservative leadership.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  I understand Berlin being a logical choice for a relocation but I haven't heard much about Amsterdam and Barcelona in terms of the tech and start up environment. Are they on par with Berlin or are they "up and comers"? I am also curios, are there practical reasons outside of the start up tech environment that are making you consider Barcelona and Amsterdam.
  - mike_hearn 10y ago
    Wages for tech people in Barcelona at least are dramatically worse than in places like London. Amsterdam looks more attractive (much better levels of English as well), but the Netherlands is one of the countries most likely to go through an EU referendum within the next 18 months as well.
keithpeter 10y ago
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/politics-is-too-complex-to-be-understood-as-just-either-left-or-right/ http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/politics-is-too-com... Above link might help understanding of the politics behind our vote. I had a bad feeling when I saw how very close the opinion polls were. Once Farage did the immigration poster it was game over. Our first political assassination this century seemed to polarise the situation as well. Using the orthogonal scales explained in the link above, you guys are neo-liberal economically and have a cosmopolitan outlook. Many - not a majority, just enough - people in England have a communitarian outlook and are left wing economically. What you have going for you is that the government is also right wing economically. The leadership may move slightly to the communitarian end - it only has to move enough to make it work. The new leader and her government will need to dance like anything - they will have to conduct a complex set of negotiations (remember UK has not negotiated a trade deal for 40 years) that will involve the usual performance you do when making deals - but at the same time they will have to keep public opinion reassured (or at least bored - i.e. avoid upsetting it). Not an easy trick. One candidate seems to be on a bit of a learning curve from this morning's news. Remember that those of us who ticked the 'remain' box basically all wanted the same thing - status quo. What did those who ticked the 'leave' box want? Quite a few incompatible things from my conversations over the last few weeks. The new Prime Minister will be making more than half the people unhappy - this last idea comes from an Irish Times columnist whose name escapes me right now. You need to hedge for uncertainty in any way you can. PS: If you think London has problems, think about how things look from Belfast.
- wcummings 10y ago
  This has a picture of the poster for those interested: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaking-point-poster-queue-of-migrants http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage...
philliphaydon 10y ago
Too much speculation and scare mongering.
andy_boot 10y ago
It is definitely going to be a problem. And people are already pushing see: Truck Drives Around London Urging Move To Berlin: http://www.lbc.co.uk/truck-drives-around-london-urging-move-to-berlin-133339 http://www.lbc.co.uk/truck-drives-around-london-urging-move-...
- andy_boot 10y ago
  I don't understand the downvotes here. I work in a London startup where about 90% or our engineers are not British. They tell me that they are already seeing adverts saying 'move to berlin/dublin' on their facebook feed. There is a real danger that as well as not being able to recruit people, the people that are already here will simply leave.
ZenoArrow 10y ago
For all those reading this article and agreeing with it, I'd like to point out that it follows the classic scaremongering approach... suggests the worst case scenario based on an uncertain future, and explores no possible solutions. The only people it holds value for are those that seek to gain from dividing us. From what I can see, the central claim the article makes is that hiring tech talent is going to be harder post-Brexit. There are a number of issues with this claim. For one, the perceived issue with immigration was pretty much never with those who were filling a skills shortage. I've never heard anyone complaining about doctors and nurses being brought over to work in the NHS, for example. The perceived issue was with low-skilled workers and/or people who were resistant to integration with Western values. I personally don't have an issue with immigration (and believe the problems are hugely exaggerated by the media), but to be fair to those that do have concerns about immigration, it should be pointed out that their misgivings weren't really directed at high-tech workers. Secondly, there's the issue that talented individuals from EU countries may be less interested in coming to the UK. There is likely to be some people who perceive the situation this way, but there's plenty of tech talent all across the world, and the UK will remain a destination that people from less economically developed countries are interested in coming to, especially as the English language is widespread across the world. I hope that the new Conservative leader will lay out a plan that makes it clear the people who are currently living in the UK can continue to do so, regardless of the state of our EU membership. I think it'd be a great help in putting immigration speculation to bed.
ThomPete 10y ago
EUs trade with each other represents only 16% of all trade in the world and this number is declining. The EU has no fintech/startups center beside the UK and thats not going to change (Berlin doesn't have the money) EU is killing, not fostering startups. If anything startups thrive where there is complexity because it means there are problems to solve. The EU is politically trying to solve a lot of problems but they have nothing but technocratic reasons to do so. I.e. they aren’t actually very good at allocating resources to the right problems for europeans because they have no feedback mechanism allowing for a better insight into what are the EU citizens problems. Instead they are solving problems with the very bureacracy they helped create themselves to begin with. If anything the EU should stop trying to solve politically what can be solved through technology and via startups. The UK's fintech sector is going to be just fine and most probably boosted because it's not the problems of the EU that makes UK's fintech successful it's the world. Technology does and can make up for any legislative complexity and it's going to foster a whole new slew of startups. So the UK is going to benefit greatly for this and can now make trade deals that benefit the UK while continuing to do fintech without any problems what so ever. EU isn't some economic powerhouse which one should only be so lucky to be part of. It's primarily catered towards supporting old industries and trade barriers. More countries should reverse back to the common market. The fact is no one knows whats going to happen. But if history is any indication the UK is going to come out stronger not weaker from this.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  > The EU has no fintech/startups center beside the UK and thats not going to change (Berlin doesn't have the money) Other cities like Dublin are getting investment. And yes, most were in the UK until now. They might go to Amsterdam and Frankfurt as well > EU is killing, not fostering startups. This is laughable. Number26? Spotify? Delivery Hero? In fact, they are ahead of Canada in the startup world. The business friendly, less regulation Canada.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    Using Dublin as an example is like comparing Boston with SF. You just don't have the talent or the infrastructure or alumni there and it's not just something you build up like that. If it's laughable then why does the EU have the lowest number of unicorns of any super region in the world? Why is it's growth declining? Why is it's unemployment increasing? The UK is the country with most unicorns, most fintech startups, most important financial market in all of the EU. Thats not just something they got because of the EU they got it despite the EU as they had it before too. And if the EU is so important for trade and export why is it that a country like Denmark export to the US is now rivaling export to Germany and is said to go move beyond that. EU is loosing it's economic power not gaining it. There is not a single thread of evidence that the EU is making it easier to conduct business. If anything though it's great for big corporations because they can lobby any challenger out of the market because of the legislative burdens. I am for the common market but the EU is killing the very advantage of having individual countries with different cultures by trying to harmonize their culture. Diversity is an asset not a liability especially for startups.
DrNuke 10y ago
I'm afraid no one in my EU high-skilled network is going to stay in New Little England long term after Brexit: there is simply too much resurfacing from under the elitist carpet of multiculturalism and cosmopolitanism, nothing of our strict business really.
urbanxs 10y ago
It's okay - they can still hire visa bound slaves, err workers, that they can pay lower than the market value and impose harsh terms on - as they do with non eu migrants at the moment.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tkyjonathan 10y ago
I think there is a much stronger point that is being ignored. No one is currently hiring in London. There are 700,000 less jobs ads then before the referendum. If EU hubs actively pick up those who are unemployed in London, it would be enough of a 'brain-drain' for London start-ups to notice.

66 points by ognevvv 10y ago

Having just had one developer decide not to join our UK based company due to this, then yes I feel brains will be next. I'm certainly thinking about my continued residency in the UK. Berlin looks pretty interesting for me, however the tech seem definitely doesn't seem as vibrant as that of London at a quick glance.

johneth 10y ago
> the tech seem definitely doesn't seem as vibrant as that of London at a quick glance. That could change as people decide against London and for EU cities. I'd say Dublin has quite a chance, too (although certainly not to the same extent).
- dogma1138 10y ago
  One of the main reasons that "IT" and developers specifically choose the UK or more specifically London it's that it's the only place where you can get salaries which are even remotely close to what you get in the US. A developer in spain earns about 35K Euro's, a developer in Berlin earns 60K. Deserving or not IT doesn't pay more than most professional positions in the EU and in many places you would be getting paid about as much as some public sector workers and teachers. While the average UK developer salary isn't considerably higher than Germany, the London salaries are considerably higher and it is the only tech hub where developers can break the 100K GBP(~130K US in the current market, but it was 150K+ just a year ago) mark in Europe. Add to that the fact that non-base compensation is very low in Europe in general, bonuses are fairly low, equity is considerably rarer than in the US, large tech companies would give you access to some sort of an employee investment plan but that's about it the UK was and still is pretty important in keeping IT talent within the EU. Given the usual risk averse culture of most of the continental states (with somewhat the exception of Eastern europe and the baltic states) it's quite unlikely that a true startup hub can emerge anywhere else, the UK or again more specifically London had access to a lot of financial capital which helped it to compensate for the usual European aversion from risk, venture capital and the startup culture in general.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    >> "London salaries are considerably higher and it is the only tech hub where developers can break the 100K GBP" This might be true for big companies but certainly not startups. In my experience mid-level developers can expect around £45K and senior £60k (at startups). You could break definitely break £100k with contract work though.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      More or less but is what's available, same thing goes for the continent, a developer for Amazon in Berlin would be making 60-65K euro's. The UK used to be a big upgrade even outside of London due to the relative strength of the currency(especially during the Euro crisis), but the EUR and the GBP are almost at parity these days so that's gone (if you are making 50K GBP it's 59K US, if you are making 50K EUR it's 55K US these days).
      - distances 10y ago
        Just pure salary comparison isn't enough though. London has crazy living costs, and Berlin's response is the heavy taxation (about 40%-45% including the compulsory health insurance).
        bogomipz 10y ago
        40-45%? Is this true across Germany? Wouldn't this put it higher than Sweden?
        kuschku 10y ago
        That’s after including healthcare and insurances, usually. (Against all rumors, Germany doesn’t have universal nationalized healthcare)
        distances 10y ago
        As the other commenter mentioned, this is after including a compulsory health insurance which is about 15% of your salary. And yes, taxation in this income bracket is higher than in the Nordic countries. Can't say if this is true across Germany. You can also choose private insurance if your income is high enough, which can then be cheaper for you than the mentioned 15%. The income limit for that is something like 55-60k/year, if I recall correctly.
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  The problem with Dublin is cost of living. Comparing my London costs to a friend in Dublin he's paying more for pretty much everything and usually by a significant amount. Berlin would also be a better choice for a lot of people as it is on mainland Europe so easier to travel to (people can drive with all of their belongings when moving).
cs02rm0 10y ago
One swallow does not make a summer. There's going to be a period of uncertainty where there may be an effect, but if they hurry up and get on with it then some stability should return. If the 15% rate of corporation tax comes in or other measures it could well encourage investment. In the meantime, I suspect Brexit will be a convenient excuse for anyone wishing to decline a job offer regardless of whether that's really their reason.
- tkyjonathan 10y ago
  Hiring in the UK tech sector has largely stopped. There are no positions, unless you are a devop - in which case, there are tons of positions. If people are so interested in saving the UK tech scene, why not hire people already living in the UK? Those people will not be able to survive until consumer and investor confidence returns and they will be the first to head out to other EU countries.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "Hiring in the UK tech sector has largely stopped." You're basing this on what exactly? I got a new job this week and there was plenty of people hiring tech talent (I had interviews lined up with 5 different companies within 2 weeks of starting to look).
    - tkyjonathan 10y ago
      Lucky you. I've been out of work for a while and there is also the matter of 700,000 less job ads from before the referendum.
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
        What sort of work are you looking for?
  - mike_hearn 10y ago
    The firm I work is hiring in London for developers right now. Brexit makes no difference for us.
cm2187 10y ago
Sprechen sie deutsch?
throwaway991132 10y ago
Since putting up a job opening. I have been inundated with applications from France, Germany, Barcelona and other EU places. I have contacted each applicant from the EU and asked them why they want to work in the UK. 1 thing came to the forefront over and over. WAGES. Even one from Berlin commented that the tech scene in Berlin wasn't that interesting at all.

dazc 10y ago

"European staff suddenly have no idea how long they will be able to work in Britain." Well, after 5 years they can stay indefinitely. https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card/permanent-residence-card https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card/permanent-r... You can apply for a permanent residence card after you’ve lived in the UK for 5 years. This will prove your right to live in the UK permanently.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
solidangle 10y ago
Those rules might change, one of the Conservative candidates announced that she'll kick out all EU immigrants that enter the UK after she becomes the prime minister. Edit: source: https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/751682424405430272 https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/751682424405430272
- dazc 10y ago
  I don't think she said that exactly, especially as she was on the side of remaining in the EU. All rules can change but this is how it as at the moment.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  That's scaremongering; not going to happen.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    The damage is done though.
- cs02rm0 10y ago
  That can't possibly be true - link?
- hardlianotion 10y ago
  Which one? Do you have a quote?

mianos 10y ago

There are lots of reasonable arguments to investing in the UK first. They now have the opportunity to innovate without having to work on with committees with thousands of people on them (cookie laws, wtf). As an investor I have more trust in the UK than the rest of Europe. The employment argument is reasonable except, there is still plenty of Eastern European talent that was never in the EU.

dogma1138 10y ago
What eastern European talent is actually left these days that isn't part of the EU? The only thing that's really left is the Ukraine and Belarus...
- raverbashing 10y ago
  Exactly this. And I've known a company in Germany that are very happy to hire people from these nationalities even if they require a visa (Which just goes to show how "we can't hire people outside of the EU while in the EU" is complete BS)
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    It's not hard for UK companies to hire outside of the EU either, Tier 2 general and Tier 2 ICT sponsorships are pretty easy to obtain. The cost is different tho, developers from spain can just move to the UK and look for a job. Hiring some one internationally is usually a more complicated process.
    - raverbashing 10y ago
      Yes, I know that, but it was one of the selling points of Brexit
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
matt4077 10y ago
- The UK will end up still following EU regulations because anything else would risk their access to the common market - Even now, EU regulations affect non-EU companies. No way to avoid the "cookie law" if you want to serve EU customers. - The list of regulations that affect startups, especially in the web/software space is rather small. The impact of regulation on the startup scene in Europe is almost zero.

throwaway991132 10y ago

> European staff suddenly have no idea how long they will be able to work in Britain. I've heard a number of politicians say that those who are here will be able to remain. It would be such a mistake to suddenly tell people to leave. It's not going to happen. Also a number of points about he article. > Although Europe’s 500 million citizens dwarfs the 323 million in the US So what. They all speak different languages, not one. So there are some hurdles there to selling to them. In addition. Only about 4? countries in the EU are rich enough to be trading with. The rest aren't really worth a mention. I'd easily take the 323 in the US, as I have only 1 language to deal with and immediate results in setting up a business for the US. > “Long term I think I will have to relocate my business to the USA as the market in the UK is just too small to justify staying here,” she told me. What’s that? A market of 65 million too small? Well, yes, when just a fortnight ago it was 500 million. This is laughable. I have a business in both the UK and the US. Even if I was just operating in the UK. I'd still have access to the US. How this article is sounding like the UK cannot trade with the EU is again laughable. This article smacks of scare-mongering. Finally one thing, follow the money. > Look for talented British entrepreneurs suddenly turning up in Berlin, Stockholm, Lisbon and Barcelona. Wasn't there an article on HN saying that Barcelona couldnt find enough tech workers? The evidence pointed to compensation. I doubt there will be much of a brain drain, when British tech workers balk at how much they'd be losing in salary working anywhere apart from the UK or US.

throwaway991132 10y ago
Oh and waiting for the downvotes from French and German HN users. Britain is now a direct competitor to these countries. With 1 notable exception. Britain can now put in place any legislation she wishes to be even more competitive than the EU. Contrast that to the EU, where you have 28? member states which have to agree whatever is ratified. Remember previously that France, Germany and Spain have shot down previous bills because it would hurt a sector of their economy? Not Britain can do whatever is in HER best interest.
TillE 10y ago
> I've heard a number of politicians say that those who are here will be able to remain. That's nice, but it's far from a promise. Sometimes uncertainty and instability can be worse than an actual bad situation.

afarrell 10y ago

American software engineer who is leaving the US in 35 hours to work for a startup in the UK here. I feel like even for non-EU immigrants, the brexit makes Britain in general less attractive. Part of the reason I'm joining the company is getting to work alongside folks from across the EU and, while I strongly suspect they'll ultimately be alright, I wouldn't be surprised if they were more anxious. Another reason is that my wife loves to travel, we are going to use London as a base, and this does hurt the value of my salary for traveling in the EU.

afarrell 10y ago
Aside from the impact on myself, I'd strongly suspect that non-white immigrants feel less welcome due to the uptick in racist incidents (or at least the media reports thereof) which has accompanied this. hmmm.... It just occurs to me that I've been assuming I'm still white in the UK. I think that is a safe assumption, but race is weird so I suppose there is a slight possibility that my skin is dark enough that I'm not. huh.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  It's not just aimed at 'non-whites', it is aimed at all foreigners. (Though it is likely that skin color will make it (much) worse.)
  - afarrell 10y ago
    yea, I saw something about a Polish community center having been vandalized. The response to that vandalism was really heartwarming though. Also, how are you doing? Thank you for the referral a while back when I was doing my job search. The EU offices weren't hiring SWEs at the time, but the referral was still helpful.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      You're welcome, and I'm doing ok, crazy busy a few weeks ago, now fortunately a little bit more quiet.

mychaelangelo 10y ago

"Given that the UK had been part of a single market which allowed for enormous freedom of movement, its access to all that talent in Europe is now in jeopardy." I don't think UK Govt will jeopardise access to talent with unprogressive immigration reform. UK tech startups need not worry on this front. And just look at USA as an example. Despite VISA issues for foreigners, Silicon Valley still thrives and still has reasonable access to a global pool of talent.

tosseraccount 10y ago
Leaving the harsh regulations of this customs union can benefit Britain and non-EU trading countries. They're better offer negotiating as a free agent.
insulanian 10y ago
Silicon Valley has acces to US talent pool, which is significantly higher than the UK one.

gregdoesit 10y ago

I work in London. Since the referendum, all my European, non British colleagues -including myself - have started to discuss places we could potentially move to, "just in case". Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin are the most popular ones - and I've found myself thinking much more seriously that it might be time to prepare. Perhaps some of my colleagues are on the same page. Yes, there are 2 or 2.5 years when nothing will change theoretically. But do I really want to commit to a country, with uncertainty as to what will happen after this 2.5 years? I suggest everyone affected do their research on the options available. Luckily, there are plenty. Just in case.

Redoubts 10y ago
How is emigration to Europe going to work while the UK leaves the EU? Might you have to go back and reapply for visas?
- hackerboos 10y ago
  Depends on the terms of our exit. Free movement is still on the table for the likely winner of the Conservative leadership.
bogomipz 10y ago
I understand Berlin being a logical choice for a relocation but I haven't heard much about Amsterdam and Barcelona in terms of the tech and start up environment. Are they on par with Berlin or are they "up and comers"? I am also curios, are there practical reasons outside of the start up tech environment that are making you consider Barcelona and Amsterdam.
- mike_hearn 10y ago
  Wages for tech people in Barcelona at least are dramatically worse than in places like London. Amsterdam looks more attractive (much better levels of English as well), but the Netherlands is one of the countries most likely to go through an EU referendum within the next 18 months as well.

keithpeter 10y ago

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/politics-is-too-complex-to-be-understood-as-just-either-left-or-right/ http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/politics-is-too-com... Above link might help understanding of the politics behind our vote. I had a bad feeling when I saw how very close the opinion polls were. Once Farage did the immigration poster it was game over. Our first political assassination this century seemed to polarise the situation as well. Using the orthogonal scales explained in the link above, you guys are neo-liberal economically and have a cosmopolitan outlook. Many - not a majority, just enough - people in England have a communitarian outlook and are left wing economically. What you have going for you is that the government is also right wing economically. The leadership may move slightly to the communitarian end - it only has to move enough to make it work. The new leader and her government will need to dance like anything - they will have to conduct a complex set of negotiations (remember UK has not negotiated a trade deal for 40 years) that will involve the usual performance you do when making deals - but at the same time they will have to keep public opinion reassured (or at least bored - i.e. avoid upsetting it). Not an easy trick. One candidate seems to be on a bit of a learning curve from this morning's news. Remember that those of us who ticked the 'remain' box basically all wanted the same thing - status quo. What did those who ticked the 'leave' box want? Quite a few incompatible things from my conversations over the last few weeks. The new Prime Minister will be making more than half the people unhappy - this last idea comes from an Irish Times columnist whose name escapes me right now. You need to hedge for uncertainty in any way you can. PS: If you think London has problems, think about how things look from Belfast.

wcummings 10y ago
This has a picture of the poster for those interested: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaking-point-poster-queue-of-migrants http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage...

philliphaydon 10y ago

Too much speculation and scare mongering.

andy_boot 10y ago

It is definitely going to be a problem. And people are already pushing see: Truck Drives Around London Urging Move To Berlin: http://www.lbc.co.uk/truck-drives-around-london-urging-move-to-berlin-133339 http://www.lbc.co.uk/truck-drives-around-london-urging-move-...

andy_boot 10y ago
I don't understand the downvotes here. I work in a London startup where about 90% or our engineers are not British. They tell me that they are already seeing adverts saying 'move to berlin/dublin' on their facebook feed. There is a real danger that as well as not being able to recruit people, the people that are already here will simply leave.

ZenoArrow 10y ago

For all those reading this article and agreeing with it, I'd like to point out that it follows the classic scaremongering approach... suggests the worst case scenario based on an uncertain future, and explores no possible solutions. The only people it holds value for are those that seek to gain from dividing us. From what I can see, the central claim the article makes is that hiring tech talent is going to be harder post-Brexit. There are a number of issues with this claim. For one, the perceived issue with immigration was pretty much never with those who were filling a skills shortage. I've never heard anyone complaining about doctors and nurses being brought over to work in the NHS, for example. The perceived issue was with low-skilled workers and/or people who were resistant to integration with Western values. I personally don't have an issue with immigration (and believe the problems are hugely exaggerated by the media), but to be fair to those that do have concerns about immigration, it should be pointed out that their misgivings weren't really directed at high-tech workers. Secondly, there's the issue that talented individuals from EU countries may be less interested in coming to the UK. There is likely to be some people who perceive the situation this way, but there's plenty of tech talent all across the world, and the UK will remain a destination that people from less economically developed countries are interested in coming to, especially as the English language is widespread across the world. I hope that the new Conservative leader will lay out a plan that makes it clear the people who are currently living in the UK can continue to do so, regardless of the state of our EU membership. I think it'd be a great help in putting immigration speculation to bed.

ThomPete 10y ago

EUs trade with each other represents only 16% of all trade in the world and this number is declining. The EU has no fintech/startups center beside the UK and thats not going to change (Berlin doesn't have the money) EU is killing, not fostering startups. If anything startups thrive where there is complexity because it means there are problems to solve. The EU is politically trying to solve a lot of problems but they have nothing but technocratic reasons to do so. I.e. they aren’t actually very good at allocating resources to the right problems for europeans because they have no feedback mechanism allowing for a better insight into what are the EU citizens problems. Instead they are solving problems with the very bureacracy they helped create themselves to begin with. If anything the EU should stop trying to solve politically what can be solved through technology and via startups. The UK's fintech sector is going to be just fine and most probably boosted because it's not the problems of the EU that makes UK's fintech successful it's the world. Technology does and can make up for any legislative complexity and it's going to foster a whole new slew of startups. So the UK is going to benefit greatly for this and can now make trade deals that benefit the UK while continuing to do fintech without any problems what so ever. EU isn't some economic powerhouse which one should only be so lucky to be part of. It's primarily catered towards supporting old industries and trade barriers. More countries should reverse back to the common market. The fact is no one knows whats going to happen. But if history is any indication the UK is going to come out stronger not weaker from this.

raverbashing 10y ago
> The EU has no fintech/startups center beside the UK and thats not going to change (Berlin doesn't have the money) Other cities like Dublin are getting investment. And yes, most were in the UK until now. They might go to Amsterdam and Frankfurt as well > EU is killing, not fostering startups. This is laughable. Number26? Spotify? Delivery Hero? In fact, they are ahead of Canada in the startup world. The business friendly, less regulation Canada.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Using Dublin as an example is like comparing Boston with SF. You just don't have the talent or the infrastructure or alumni there and it's not just something you build up like that. If it's laughable then why does the EU have the lowest number of unicorns of any super region in the world? Why is it's growth declining? Why is it's unemployment increasing? The UK is the country with most unicorns, most fintech startups, most important financial market in all of the EU. Thats not just something they got because of the EU they got it despite the EU as they had it before too. And if the EU is so important for trade and export why is it that a country like Denmark export to the US is now rivaling export to Germany and is said to go move beyond that. EU is loosing it's economic power not gaining it. There is not a single thread of evidence that the EU is making it easier to conduct business. If anything though it's great for big corporations because they can lobby any challenger out of the market because of the legislative burdens. I am for the common market but the EU is killing the very advantage of having individual countries with different cultures by trying to harmonize their culture. Diversity is an asset not a liability especially for startups.

DrNuke 10y ago

I'm afraid no one in my EU high-skilled network is going to stay in New Little England long term after Brexit: there is simply too much resurfacing from under the elitist carpet of multiculturalism and cosmopolitanism, nothing of our strict business really.

urbanxs 10y ago

It's okay - they can still hire visa bound slaves, err workers, that they can pay lower than the market value and impose harsh terms on - as they do with non eu migrants at the moment.

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tkyjonathan 10y ago

I think there is a much stronger point that is being ignored. No one is currently hiring in London. There are 700,000 less jobs ads then before the referendum. If EU hubs actively pick up those who are unemployed in London, it would be enough of a 'brain-drain' for London start-ups to notice.