9 ms·

Thrussh: Portable SSH client and server library in Rust

135 points by 0xmohit 10y ago

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
Sometimes you can just tell that a project still stay fringe just by how hard it is to get to the sourceocde :(
- tshtf 10y ago
  Took me 30 seconds. # apt-get install darcs $ darcs get https://pijul.org/thrussh $ darcs get https://pijul.org/thrussh_client $ darcs get https://pijul.org/thrussh_server
- LukeShu 10y ago
  The command to clone the repository is right there: darcs get https://pijul.org/thrussh
- aseipp 10y ago
  I assume you're referring to the bit about Darcs. To be fair, Pijul is an in-progress version control system, and Darcs (or the now-defunct Camp[1] project, from one of my 'predecessors' in my current job) is probably the closest thing there is to Pijul in spirit, so it's sort of understandable why they would choose it. The package is available from crates.io, at least. And they plan to move to self hosting in the next release of Pijul. On the other hand, if the developers are reading this, something like a `fast-export` mirror of the repositories would be very useful for people just browsing the code. Or just any way to conveniently browse it with some syntax highlighting. Honestly, the bigger problem is there's no easy docs to glance at on how to use the library, or samples, without cloning repositories. That raises the activation effort a bit, IMO. The repository being in darcs with an `index.html` just makes this particular point a bit worse. But just documentation on the page would make it better, too. And really, `darcs` is packaged in most systems, is it not? Is it that problematic to simply install it with apt or whatever? [1] http://projects.haskell.org/camp/ http://projects.haskell.org/camp/
  - the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
    > I assume you're referring to the bit about Darcs. Not just darcs, but also the lack of ability to look at the sources online.
  - mootothemax 10y ago
    >Is it that problematic to simply install it with apt or whatever? It's the equivalent of having an extra couple of fields on a SaaS signup form. Sure, not everyone's going to be put off; you are going to lose some people, though.
    - aseipp 10y ago
      I mean, running `apt install` is basically a requirement to build lots of software these days. And it's not like you're installing 500 megabytes of libraries to depend on for compilation. It's one application for the version control system, and that's only going to be used by developers, and not end users. They'll always just use `crates.io`. Besides, Pijul is going to always be using "not Git" I'm afraid - after all, it is a version control system, and they're going to dogfood it. So, given that - I doubt this complaint will ever be seen with much weight. I mean, why would it be? Their concern is creating Pijul, not necessarily getting dozens of contributors or doing the GitHub thing or capitulating to Git users or whatnot. I do consider the lack of online source browsing and online docs a significantly larger and more immediate barrier - but I already mentioned that.
      - comex 10y ago
        > And it's not like you're installing 500 megabytes of libraries to depend on for compilation. On source-based compilation systems like Homebrew (OS X), darcs depends on ghc, and ghc is huge (in both disk space used and compilation time). I suppose you could make a comparison to rustc - also huge, and a dependency in such a system for anything written in Rust; anyone interested in using this library is writing code in Rust, so wouldn't it be a little hypocritical to have a problem with big dependencies? Well, maybe. Personally I think Rust would significantly benefit from a way to compile to portable C code, for precisely this reason. (I know that this is harder than it sounds.) It's true that end users can just obtain the library from crates.io, though, for purposes other than browsing (which is possible with Cargo but not convenient).
- rnhmjoj 10y ago
  Why hard? pijul.org>Downloads>From Source and `darcs get https://pijul.org` https://pijul.org`
- mootothemax 10y ago
  >Sometimes you can just tell that a project still stay fringe just by how hard it is to get to the sourceocde :( Yup. It's sad/ironic how many techs get frustrated by never-ending signup forms - and recognise that putting roadblocks in the way of signups is A Bad Thing - yet use non-mainstream stuff, figuring that "it's just 30 seconds to install X!"
- jamiesonbecker 10y ago
  Since they're using what looks like a fork of darcs named pijul, they could probably use darcsweb, which is a slightly older Python 2x web front-end: https://blitiri.com.ar/p/darcsweb/ https://blitiri.com.ar/p/darcsweb/ Example repo: http://www.divineinvasion.net/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi http://www.divineinvasion.net/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi Darcs was/is a really nice vcs and I'm kinda sad it didn't catch on more.
  - gnuvince 10y ago
    pijul is not a fork of darcs, it's a completely different system that adopts the main ideas of darcs.
equalunique 10y ago
I tried to find this on GitHub and ended up on the pijul/pijul repo, noticed a default.nix file there, and got a little excited - thinking this was developed in part using Nix.
Bromskloss 10y ago
What is the relation between thrussh and pijul?
- cm3 10y ago
  To be used in Pijul as a pure Rust implementation of SSH client and server. They similarly replaced Pijul's LMDB dependency with Sanakirja[1]. [1] http://pijul.org/sanakirja/ http://pijul.org/sanakirja/
  - Bromskloss 10y ago
    I hadn't realised that Pijul is written in Rust! I had only read about the theoretical side of Pijul.
    - cm3 10y ago
      Started with OCaml plus a Scala prototype but moved to Rust.
      - draven 10y ago
        I was about to ask about the motivation behind these changes in the implementation language, but the FAQ explains it all (last question): http://pijul.org/faq.html http://pijul.org/faq.html Why is Scala considered "not open enough" BTW? Just curious.
        cm3 10y ago
        Oracle's control of JVM and less community democracy compared to LLVM and rustc (what is used in Rust) may be what the mean, I suppose.
        premium-concern 10y ago
        That paragraph sounds pretty uninformed. I wouldn't take it too seriously.
pdpi 10y ago
> This means that this library will never be subject to arbitrary code execution, leaks of secrets, buffer overruns, double frees, etc. This sort of blanket statement doesn't fill me with confidence. Rust can only ensure some of those things, and putting this much faith in your (admittedly very cool) tools Seems remarkably cavalier
- pslam 10y ago
  I think it's fair to have a high level of confidence in freedom from arbitrary code execution, buffer overruns, double frees, etc. It does not, however, follow that it will be free from leaks of secrets. There are plenty of ways to leak secrets which don't involve the program leaving its envelope of defined behavior. No language is free from that.
  - tinco 10y ago
    Though I would love to agree with you, Java also promised to fully protect us from arbitrary code execution. In some ways even stronger than Rust. But as we all know Java has been riddled with code execution bugs. Now I wouldn't dare accuse Rust developers to be as terrible at writing secure code as the average K&R worshipper, and unlike the JVM most (all?) of Rust is actually written in Rust I hear, but I wouldn't flat out claim there won't ever be an arbitrary code execution vulnerability in a Rust project.
    - conradev 10y ago
      I'm actually curious now – is it possible to deliberately introduce an RCE vulnerability into Rust code with `#![forbid(unsafe_code)]`? Has anyone done it?
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - pcwalton 10y ago
        Sure, that's easy: just write a Rust program that spawns a root shell connected to port 1337. This isn't a flippant response: I suspect most RCEs in Rust software are likely to be high-level vulnerabilities like that.
fizzbatter 10y ago
This is cool. If anything though, i'm more intrigued by Pijul haha. I use Git day to day simply because it is the defacto.. but i have never liked it. I've longed for a better dvcs. Granted, i'm not sure i'll ever get it, but seeing new attempts is always appreciated. edit: It should be noted that in my case above, "better" simply means more intuitive. I'm not complaining about Git either. But, it has a history of not being intuitive.. i think we can all agree there. That's all i mean.
- serge2k 10y ago
  Have you tried mercurial? I haven't, but isn't it supposedly more friendly?
  - JoshTriplett 10y ago
    That reputation was developed in the early days of git, back before git added many of the usability features it now has. Today, mercurial isn't any more or less friendly; it's just a different model, which might or might not fit better with anyone's particular preferences about DVCS behavior.
    - krupan 10y ago
      False. Git has improved, but Mercurial is still more friendly. The thing git has going for it is so many people use it and there is lots of help just a google search away. And you will need help.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    I found mercurial's command line to be a lower hurdle coming from previous experience with CVS and subversion. But that was several years ago and I haven't kept up with mercurial for a while. Now I use git, and it still confuses me and I just rely on the magit frontend in emacs to do what's right.
- riffraff 10y ago
  I used to use darcs before git won the internet. To this day, I miss its fantastic cherry picking, but modern git does not have much worse usability.
doomrobo 10y ago
>The Rust community is exceptionally good at avoiding trolls and flamewars. One side goal of this project is to provide a safe and sane way of using SSH without having to read pages of insults. What insults is the author referring to?
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  OpenSSH comes from the OpenBSD community, which is not known for being friendly to new users or developers. Or to humans in general. By contrast, the Rust community has a reputation for well-above-average friendliness.
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    I've heard rumors it's possible to use ssh without being roasted alive.
    - microcolonel 10y ago
      It's okay, Ted, Theo can't hurt you anymore. ;-)
curun1r 10y ago
It seems like this project would run into the same issues that the hypothetical pure-Rust version of OpenSSL would run into. Namely, that crypto code often needs to run in constant time, regardless of input, in order to not be vulnerable to timing attacks. As I understand it, Rust isn't capable of generating executables that run in constant time because of limitations in LLVM. There seems to be an RFC [1] to enable this sort of thing, but it's over a year old and doesn't seem to have moved much. Is there any reason why a project like this would be immune to timing attacks whereas an SSL implementation wouldn't? Otherwise, a project like this seems like it's just asking for a vulnerability that's not fixable. [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/847 https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/847
- scottlamb 10y ago
  Is the current situation any different than with C? I'm not aware of any C language (or gcc/clang extension) equivalent of the proposed #[constant_time] annotation/verification.
alexnewman 10y ago
The code is a bit tricky for me to understand. I might give it another shot tomorrow. To be fair it's a tough problem.
hartror 10y ago
> The name comes from thrushes, a family of birds to which for instance blackbirds belong. Sure, but out of context I'd be willing to bet that isn't going to be the thing that most women think of first. 10 hours on HN and no one has pointed that out?
- bananaoomarang 10y ago
  I'm male and my first thought was not birds.
- lifthrasiir 10y ago
  I am male and not an English native; I simply didn't know the word. Also, for your information, it seems that WordSafety [1] (as previously appeared on HN [2]) doesn't have it in the unwanted word list; the authors may well be unaware of that meaning. [1] http://wordsafety.com/ http://wordsafety.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10117297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10117297
- microcolonel 10y ago
  Oral thrush was what came to mind. Naming things is hard.
- gone35 10y ago
  This library was written in Finland (at Aalto University). The contents of this website are © 2016 Pierre-Étienne Meunier and Florent Becker under the terms of the GFDL 1.3 or later. Maybe none of the authors/collaborators are native English speakers. Also thrush/candidiasis is definitely not a women's only thing.
616c 10y ago
While on the topic, how many here actually run alternative SSH systems in their day to day? There is so much talk of Erlang and BEAM. I was wondering, would it not be interesting to run the Erlang SSH server and client in some personal usage and see how it fairs? http://erlang.org/doc/man/ssh.html http://erlang.org/doc/man/ssh.html

135 points by 0xmohit 10y ago

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago

Sometimes you can just tell that a project still stay fringe just by how hard it is to get to the sourceocde :(

tshtf 10y ago
Took me 30 seconds. # apt-get install darcs $ darcs get https://pijul.org/thrussh $ darcs get https://pijul.org/thrussh_client $ darcs get https://pijul.org/thrussh_server
LukeShu 10y ago
The command to clone the repository is right there: darcs get https://pijul.org/thrussh
aseipp 10y ago
I assume you're referring to the bit about Darcs. To be fair, Pijul is an in-progress version control system, and Darcs (or the now-defunct Camp[1] project, from one of my 'predecessors' in my current job) is probably the closest thing there is to Pijul in spirit, so it's sort of understandable why they would choose it. The package is available from crates.io, at least. And they plan to move to self hosting in the next release of Pijul. On the other hand, if the developers are reading this, something like a `fast-export` mirror of the repositories would be very useful for people just browsing the code. Or just any way to conveniently browse it with some syntax highlighting. Honestly, the bigger problem is there's no easy docs to glance at on how to use the library, or samples, without cloning repositories. That raises the activation effort a bit, IMO. The repository being in darcs with an `index.html` just makes this particular point a bit worse. But just documentation on the page would make it better, too. And really, `darcs` is packaged in most systems, is it not? Is it that problematic to simply install it with apt or whatever? [1] http://projects.haskell.org/camp/ http://projects.haskell.org/camp/
- the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
  > I assume you're referring to the bit about Darcs. Not just darcs, but also the lack of ability to look at the sources online.
- mootothemax 10y ago
  >Is it that problematic to simply install it with apt or whatever? It's the equivalent of having an extra couple of fields on a SaaS signup form. Sure, not everyone's going to be put off; you are going to lose some people, though.
  - aseipp 10y ago
    I mean, running `apt install` is basically a requirement to build lots of software these days. And it's not like you're installing 500 megabytes of libraries to depend on for compilation. It's one application for the version control system, and that's only going to be used by developers, and not end users. They'll always just use `crates.io`. Besides, Pijul is going to always be using "not Git" I'm afraid - after all, it is a version control system, and they're going to dogfood it. So, given that - I doubt this complaint will ever be seen with much weight. I mean, why would it be? Their concern is creating Pijul, not necessarily getting dozens of contributors or doing the GitHub thing or capitulating to Git users or whatnot. I do consider the lack of online source browsing and online docs a significantly larger and more immediate barrier - but I already mentioned that.
    - comex 10y ago
      > And it's not like you're installing 500 megabytes of libraries to depend on for compilation. On source-based compilation systems like Homebrew (OS X), darcs depends on ghc, and ghc is huge (in both disk space used and compilation time). I suppose you could make a comparison to rustc - also huge, and a dependency in such a system for anything written in Rust; anyone interested in using this library is writing code in Rust, so wouldn't it be a little hypocritical to have a problem with big dependencies? Well, maybe. Personally I think Rust would significantly benefit from a way to compile to portable C code, for precisely this reason. (I know that this is harder than it sounds.) It's true that end users can just obtain the library from crates.io, though, for purposes other than browsing (which is possible with Cargo but not convenient).
rnhmjoj 10y ago
Why hard? pijul.org>Downloads>From Source and `darcs get https://pijul.org` https://pijul.org`
mootothemax 10y ago
>Sometimes you can just tell that a project still stay fringe just by how hard it is to get to the sourceocde :( Yup. It's sad/ironic how many techs get frustrated by never-ending signup forms - and recognise that putting roadblocks in the way of signups is A Bad Thing - yet use non-mainstream stuff, figuring that "it's just 30 seconds to install X!"
jamiesonbecker 10y ago
Since they're using what looks like a fork of darcs named pijul, they could probably use darcsweb, which is a slightly older Python 2x web front-end: https://blitiri.com.ar/p/darcsweb/ https://blitiri.com.ar/p/darcsweb/ Example repo: http://www.divineinvasion.net/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi http://www.divineinvasion.net/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi Darcs was/is a really nice vcs and I'm kinda sad it didn't catch on more.
- gnuvince 10y ago
  pijul is not a fork of darcs, it's a completely different system that adopts the main ideas of darcs.

equalunique 10y ago

I tried to find this on GitHub and ended up on the pijul/pijul repo, noticed a default.nix file there, and got a little excited - thinking this was developed in part using Nix.

Bromskloss 10y ago

What is the relation between thrussh and pijul?

cm3 10y ago
To be used in Pijul as a pure Rust implementation of SSH client and server. They similarly replaced Pijul's LMDB dependency with Sanakirja[1]. [1] http://pijul.org/sanakirja/ http://pijul.org/sanakirja/
- Bromskloss 10y ago
  I hadn't realised that Pijul is written in Rust! I had only read about the theoretical side of Pijul.
  - cm3 10y ago
    Started with OCaml plus a Scala prototype but moved to Rust.
    - draven 10y ago
      I was about to ask about the motivation behind these changes in the implementation language, but the FAQ explains it all (last question): http://pijul.org/faq.html http://pijul.org/faq.html Why is Scala considered "not open enough" BTW? Just curious.
      - cm3 10y ago
        Oracle's control of JVM and less community democracy compared to LLVM and rustc (what is used in Rust) may be what the mean, I suppose.
      - premium-concern 10y ago
        That paragraph sounds pretty uninformed. I wouldn't take it too seriously.

pdpi 10y ago

> This means that this library will never be subject to arbitrary code execution, leaks of secrets, buffer overruns, double frees, etc. This sort of blanket statement doesn't fill me with confidence. Rust can only ensure some of those things, and putting this much faith in your (admittedly very cool) tools Seems remarkably cavalier

pslam 10y ago
I think it's fair to have a high level of confidence in freedom from arbitrary code execution, buffer overruns, double frees, etc. It does not, however, follow that it will be free from leaks of secrets. There are plenty of ways to leak secrets which don't involve the program leaving its envelope of defined behavior. No language is free from that.
- tinco 10y ago
  Though I would love to agree with you, Java also promised to fully protect us from arbitrary code execution. In some ways even stronger than Rust. But as we all know Java has been riddled with code execution bugs. Now I wouldn't dare accuse Rust developers to be as terrible at writing secure code as the average K&R worshipper, and unlike the JVM most (all?) of Rust is actually written in Rust I hear, but I wouldn't flat out claim there won't ever be an arbitrary code execution vulnerability in a Rust project.
  - conradev 10y ago
    I'm actually curious now – is it possible to deliberately introduce an RCE vulnerability into Rust code with `#![forbid(unsafe_code)]`? Has anyone done it?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - pcwalton 10y ago
      Sure, that's easy: just write a Rust program that spawns a root shell connected to port 1337. This isn't a flippant response: I suspect most RCEs in Rust software are likely to be high-level vulnerabilities like that.

fizzbatter 10y ago

This is cool. If anything though, i'm more intrigued by Pijul haha. I use Git day to day simply because it is the defacto.. but i have never liked it. I've longed for a better dvcs. Granted, i'm not sure i'll ever get it, but seeing new attempts is always appreciated. edit: It should be noted that in my case above, "better" simply means more intuitive. I'm not complaining about Git either. But, it has a history of not being intuitive.. i think we can all agree there. That's all i mean.

serge2k 10y ago
Have you tried mercurial? I haven't, but isn't it supposedly more friendly?
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  That reputation was developed in the early days of git, back before git added many of the usability features it now has. Today, mercurial isn't any more or less friendly; it's just a different model, which might or might not fit better with anyone's particular preferences about DVCS behavior.
  - krupan 10y ago
    False. Git has improved, but Mercurial is still more friendly. The thing git has going for it is so many people use it and there is lots of help just a google search away. And you will need help.
- ams6110 10y ago
  I found mercurial's command line to be a lower hurdle coming from previous experience with CVS and subversion. But that was several years ago and I haven't kept up with mercurial for a while. Now I use git, and it still confuses me and I just rely on the magit frontend in emacs to do what's right.
riffraff 10y ago
I used to use darcs before git won the internet. To this day, I miss its fantastic cherry picking, but modern git does not have much worse usability.

doomrobo 10y ago

>The Rust community is exceptionally good at avoiding trolls and flamewars. One side goal of this project is to provide a safe and sane way of using SSH without having to read pages of insults. What insults is the author referring to?

JoshTriplett 10y ago
OpenSSH comes from the OpenBSD community, which is not known for being friendly to new users or developers. Or to humans in general. By contrast, the Rust community has a reputation for well-above-average friendliness.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  I've heard rumors it's possible to use ssh without being roasted alive.
  - microcolonel 10y ago
    It's okay, Ted, Theo can't hurt you anymore. ;-)

curun1r 10y ago

It seems like this project would run into the same issues that the hypothetical pure-Rust version of OpenSSL would run into. Namely, that crypto code often needs to run in constant time, regardless of input, in order to not be vulnerable to timing attacks. As I understand it, Rust isn't capable of generating executables that run in constant time because of limitations in LLVM. There seems to be an RFC [1] to enable this sort of thing, but it's over a year old and doesn't seem to have moved much. Is there any reason why a project like this would be immune to timing attacks whereas an SSL implementation wouldn't? Otherwise, a project like this seems like it's just asking for a vulnerability that's not fixable. [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/847 https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/847

scottlamb 10y ago
Is the current situation any different than with C? I'm not aware of any C language (or gcc/clang extension) equivalent of the proposed #[constant_time] annotation/verification.

alexnewman 10y ago

The code is a bit tricky for me to understand. I might give it another shot tomorrow. To be fair it's a tough problem.

hartror 10y ago

> The name comes from thrushes, a family of birds to which for instance blackbirds belong. Sure, but out of context I'd be willing to bet that isn't going to be the thing that most women think of first. 10 hours on HN and no one has pointed that out?

bananaoomarang 10y ago
I'm male and my first thought was not birds.
lifthrasiir 10y ago
I am male and not an English native; I simply didn't know the word. Also, for your information, it seems that WordSafety [1] (as previously appeared on HN [2]) doesn't have it in the unwanted word list; the authors may well be unaware of that meaning. [1] http://wordsafety.com/ http://wordsafety.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10117297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10117297
microcolonel 10y ago
Oral thrush was what came to mind. Naming things is hard.
gone35 10y ago
This library was written in Finland (at Aalto University). The contents of this website are © 2016 Pierre-Étienne Meunier and Florent Becker under the terms of the GFDL 1.3 or later. Maybe none of the authors/collaborators are native English speakers. Also thrush/candidiasis is definitely not a women's only thing.

616c 10y ago

While on the topic, how many here actually run alternative SSH systems in their day to day? There is so much talk of Erlang and BEAM. I was wondering, would it not be interesting to run the Erlang SSH server and client in some personal usage and see how it fairs? http://erlang.org/doc/man/ssh.html http://erlang.org/doc/man/ssh.html