6 ms·

And now imagine where Java could be if the ecosystem wasn't completely fucked up by oracle. Imagine a Java with a sane, user friendly installer, an open source

And now imagine where Java could be if the ecosystem wasn't completely fucked up by oracle. Imagine a Java with a sane, user friendly installer, an open source community supported by a big corporation, actual development, no completely insane lawsuits. Instead, developers want to abandon the JVM platform. They actively seek new platforms and create them. The damage is done.

claystu 10y ago
What's so hard about the JVM install? I googled for "java download" and this was my first hit: https://java.com/en/download/ https://java.com/en/download/ Went there and found a single, totally obvious button labeled "Free Java Download" that detects your browser and Operating System and makes sure you download the proper version of the JVM. How much easier could it be?
- amluto 10y ago
  Dunno. Do you want the ask.com toolbar? How about updates that install the new version and remove the old version? Or maybe they've fixed the latter issue by now.
  - claystu 10y ago
    Well, the oracle website does tell you how to disable the toolbar, though I agree it shouldn't be there in the first place. As for uninstalling the old version, are you saying you want the new version to automatically uninstall old versions?
    - amluto 10y ago
      Yes. A new security release should absolutely remove the old release or at least disable any ability for less-than-fully-trusted code to invoke it.
- eli 10y ago
  On Windows it comes with an unrelated installed-by-default "malware" browser toolbar.
- ascagnel_ 10y ago
  For one, it'd be nice if it only did what it says on the tin: install Java. There's no reason that a platform like the JRE should be installing a piece of crapware.
- vetinari 10y ago
  Except for the above malware comments, what exactly does "Install Java" mean? You cannot redistribute the installer or the installed files. Except other things it means, you cannot make a docker image with java app and redistribute it. Everyone has to download their own java installer and build images themselves.
  - SSLy 10y ago
    Yeah, no. https://hub.docker.com/r/madsonic/ubuntu-madsonic/~/dockerfile/ https://hub.docker.com/r/madsonic/ubuntu-madsonic/~/dockerfi... Java (openJDK) is GPL licenced.
    - raverbashing 10y ago
      Yes. But openJDK might not solve your problem
      - SSLy 10y ago
        Is there one feature relevant to running enterprise apps that oracle jdk SE (straight out compiled from openjdk sources) has that the gpl edition does not?
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    I have no recriminations prepared for you but I am curious; where did you get the idea you can't make docker images for java apps? Did you piece it together mistakenly based on incomplete knowledge or is someone actually spreading that around?
    - kieranelby 10y ago
      Don't know about other poster, but I always thought that while you can make docker images for Java apps that include the Oracle JRE, there are restrictions if you want to distribute them - see http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/index.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/... . The no modifications clause is problematic for GPL software.
- acveilleux 10y ago
  If you need to provision things automatically, you need to jump through hoops to bypass going through that website. For licensing reason the Oracle JDK/JVM cannot be distributed by O/S vendors.
- rblatz 10y ago
  Why should it detect my browser? I want to run Java Applications Lik Minecraft not Java insecure applets in my browser.
woogy 10y ago
You don't need to imagine it, you can just look at what MS has done with .net and the community that's forming as a result. Java has such a horrendous ecosystem, it's really unacceptable.
- treehau5 10y ago
  > Java has such a horrendous ecosystem, it's really unacceptable. This has not been my experience at all. Java's ecosystem and vast libraries of battle tested software is unmatched on any platform.
- StevePerkins 10y ago
  1. I check in on .NET Core and ASP.NET Core every few months, to see if the tooling and documentation have stabilized. I just happened to check in yesterday, trying to create a "Hello World" ASP.NET Core web app. The skeleton project created by the "dotnet new" command doesn't match the "Getting Started" documentation on the ASP.NET Core website. After tinkering in frustration for an hour, I gave up. See you again in another few months. 2. What .NET open source community? I'm not aware of single significant open-source community project in that ecosystem that isn't a lagging imitation of something from the Java community (e.g. Akka.NET, MassTransit, etc). There's a lot of excitement around VS Code, and the possibilities of future stuff on .NET Core, but chatter on HN and Reddit isn't the same as actual shipped code. 3. If by "ecosystem" you mean web forums filled with college students chatting about it, then fine. But I think for most people, "ecosystem" refers to the availability of production-grade libraries and infrastructure components. Try naming one server-side niche in which Maven Centrals lags behind any other language in existence.
- dloose 10y ago
  You need to explain what you mean by "ecosystem".
KevinEldon 10y ago
Oracle pays very senior engineers and innovators to create a stable and still evolving ecosystem. Java is slow and steady. The JVM enables other innovators to explore and create languages radically different than Java. I am very thankful for Oracle's stewardship of Java and the JVM.
- filereaper 10y ago
  On the topic of stewardship, I highly recommend this talk by Brian Goetz titled "Stewardship: the Sobering Parts" [1] Brian goes about how important compatibility is for the language, the concept not throwing customers code under the bus by bringing breaking incompatibilities. (ie Python 2 --> 3) Java has its warts and isn't "cool" but I respect their design decisions. [1] https://youtu.be/2y5Pv4yN0b0?t=1578 https://youtu.be/2y5Pv4yN0b0?t=1578
  - KevinEldon 10y ago
    Thanks for the link. I haven't watched that talk, but I will, and I was thinking of Brian when I wrote my comment. His work and he work of others on the Java team is important, serious, and hard.
filereaper 10y ago
We'd be in a much better world if IBM or Redhat had taken over Java. That being said IBM is working on open-sourcing their core JVM technology to act as platform, not just for Java but other runtimes as well. [1] There is hope still... [1]http://www.infoworld.com/article/3014128/open-source-tools/ibms-open-source-jvm-project-could-also-speed-ruby-python.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/3014128/open-source-tools/i...

claystu 10y ago

What's so hard about the JVM install? I googled for "java download" and this was my first hit: https://java.com/en/download/ https://java.com/en/download/ Went there and found a single, totally obvious button labeled "Free Java Download" that detects your browser and Operating System and makes sure you download the proper version of the JVM. How much easier could it be?

amluto 10y ago
Dunno. Do you want the ask.com toolbar? How about updates that install the new version and remove the old version? Or maybe they've fixed the latter issue by now.
- claystu 10y ago
  Well, the oracle website does tell you how to disable the toolbar, though I agree it shouldn't be there in the first place. As for uninstalling the old version, are you saying you want the new version to automatically uninstall old versions?
  - amluto 10y ago
    Yes. A new security release should absolutely remove the old release or at least disable any ability for less-than-fully-trusted code to invoke it.
eli 10y ago
On Windows it comes with an unrelated installed-by-default "malware" browser toolbar.
ascagnel_ 10y ago
For one, it'd be nice if it only did what it says on the tin: install Java. There's no reason that a platform like the JRE should be installing a piece of crapware.
vetinari 10y ago
Except for the above malware comments, what exactly does "Install Java" mean? You cannot redistribute the installer or the installed files. Except other things it means, you cannot make a docker image with java app and redistribute it. Everyone has to download their own java installer and build images themselves.
- SSLy 10y ago
  Yeah, no. https://hub.docker.com/r/madsonic/ubuntu-madsonic/~/dockerfile/ https://hub.docker.com/r/madsonic/ubuntu-madsonic/~/dockerfi... Java (openJDK) is GPL licenced.
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    Yes. But openJDK might not solve your problem
    - SSLy 10y ago
      Is there one feature relevant to running enterprise apps that oracle jdk SE (straight out compiled from openjdk sources) has that the gpl edition does not?
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  I have no recriminations prepared for you but I am curious; where did you get the idea you can't make docker images for java apps? Did you piece it together mistakenly based on incomplete knowledge or is someone actually spreading that around?
  - kieranelby 10y ago
    Don't know about other poster, but I always thought that while you can make docker images for Java apps that include the Oracle JRE, there are restrictions if you want to distribute them - see http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/index.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/... . The no modifications clause is problematic for GPL software.
acveilleux 10y ago
If you need to provision things automatically, you need to jump through hoops to bypass going through that website. For licensing reason the Oracle JDK/JVM cannot be distributed by O/S vendors.
rblatz 10y ago
Why should it detect my browser? I want to run Java Applications Lik Minecraft not Java insecure applets in my browser.

woogy 10y ago

You don't need to imagine it, you can just look at what MS has done with .net and the community that's forming as a result. Java has such a horrendous ecosystem, it's really unacceptable.

treehau5 10y ago
> Java has such a horrendous ecosystem, it's really unacceptable. This has not been my experience at all. Java's ecosystem and vast libraries of battle tested software is unmatched on any platform.
StevePerkins 10y ago
1. I check in on .NET Core and ASP.NET Core every few months, to see if the tooling and documentation have stabilized. I just happened to check in yesterday, trying to create a "Hello World" ASP.NET Core web app. The skeleton project created by the "dotnet new" command doesn't match the "Getting Started" documentation on the ASP.NET Core website. After tinkering in frustration for an hour, I gave up. See you again in another few months. 2. What .NET open source community? I'm not aware of single significant open-source community project in that ecosystem that isn't a lagging imitation of something from the Java community (e.g. Akka.NET, MassTransit, etc). There's a lot of excitement around VS Code, and the possibilities of future stuff on .NET Core, but chatter on HN and Reddit isn't the same as actual shipped code. 3. If by "ecosystem" you mean web forums filled with college students chatting about it, then fine. But I think for most people, "ecosystem" refers to the availability of production-grade libraries and infrastructure components. Try naming one server-side niche in which Maven Centrals lags behind any other language in existence.
dloose 10y ago
You need to explain what you mean by "ecosystem".

KevinEldon 10y ago

Oracle pays very senior engineers and innovators to create a stable and still evolving ecosystem. Java is slow and steady. The JVM enables other innovators to explore and create languages radically different than Java. I am very thankful for Oracle's stewardship of Java and the JVM.

filereaper 10y ago
On the topic of stewardship, I highly recommend this talk by Brian Goetz titled "Stewardship: the Sobering Parts" [1] Brian goes about how important compatibility is for the language, the concept not throwing customers code under the bus by bringing breaking incompatibilities. (ie Python 2 --> 3) Java has its warts and isn't "cool" but I respect their design decisions. [1] https://youtu.be/2y5Pv4yN0b0?t=1578 https://youtu.be/2y5Pv4yN0b0?t=1578
- KevinEldon 10y ago
  Thanks for the link. I haven't watched that talk, but I will, and I was thinking of Brian when I wrote my comment. His work and he work of others on the Java team is important, serious, and hard.

filereaper 10y ago

We'd be in a much better world if IBM or Redhat had taken over Java. That being said IBM is working on open-sourcing their core JVM technology to act as platform, not just for Java but other runtimes as well. [1] There is hope still... [1]http://www.infoworld.com/article/3014128/open-source-tools/ibms-open-source-jvm-project-could-also-speed-ruby-python.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/3014128/open-source-tools/i...